Rosin Technique....Easy DIY Solventless
- Thread starter darkrom
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Is anyone willing to try pressing some test nugs using a medium other than water?
I have a feeling using propylene glycol (PG) to "hydrate" a bud will result in better extraction. Firstly, oil dissolves in PG whereas it does not in water. You would get the same internal expulsive force as using water, but would likely carry some extra oil out in solution that would have been left behind with just water. Secondly, PG has a lower specific gravity, which means it heats up more quickly than water, an advantage in this usage. Better heat transfer means more viscous oil. Finally, it has a higher boiling temperature, so the internal temp of the liquid will exceed 212F. Again, this should mean more flow.
It would also be worth trying other moistening agents commonly used for vaping, like vegetable glycerin or PEG 400, but I have personally researched the safety profile of PG and am 100% confident in its chemistry at these temperatures. The others are likely safe too, I just haven't put in the time to research them.
So here's the test. Take two similar nugs from the same source and dry them all the way out. Weigh them dry. Then moisten one with H2O and one with PG. Press them both and compare yields as percentage relative to dry weight. I would do this myself in a heartbeat, but I am unfortunately several months away from squishing. I would love to hear the results if anyone is willing to give this a shot - especially those who put their rosin in ejuice already, since you won't mind PG "contamination." (PG will evaporate out if layered thin like a solvent, or you could just vape it with no deleterious side effects).
I have a feeling using propylene glycol (PG) to "hydrate" a bud will result in better extraction. Firstly, oil dissolves in PG whereas it does not in water. You would get the same internal expulsive force as using water, but would likely carry some extra oil out in solution that would have been left behind with just water. Secondly, PG has a lower specific gravity, which means it heats up more quickly than water, an advantage in this usage. Better heat transfer means more viscous oil. Finally, it has a higher boiling temperature, so the internal temp of the liquid will exceed 212F. Again, this should mean more flow.
It would also be worth trying other moistening agents commonly used for vaping, like vegetable glycerin or PEG 400, but I have personally researched the safety profile of PG and am 100% confident in its chemistry at these temperatures. The others are likely safe too, I just haven't put in the time to research them.
So here's the test. Take two similar nugs from the same source and dry them all the way out. Weigh them dry. Then moisten one with H2O and one with PG. Press them both and compare yields as percentage relative to dry weight. I would do this myself in a heartbeat, but I am unfortunately several months away from squishing. I would love to hear the results if anyone is willing to give this a shot - especially those who put their rosin in ejuice already, since you won't mind PG "contamination." (PG will evaporate out if layered thin like a solvent, or you could just vape it with no deleterious side effects).
Monsoon
Well-Known Member
The plates are here for those interested. Depending on what their margins are I'd expect this to fall as competition enters the market over the next few months. I'm probably getting mine from them since I can afford it and it should hold me over for a good long time (hopefully).I think @Monsoon posted a website selling SS plates for like $300. My CuNi plates were 1/3 of that cost.
If you want to play with percentages, Boveda offers a full range of humidity levels for different uses so if you want to go lower you can try 32% or 49%.
I think we may be calculating psi the wrong way. We'll use a 10 ton press with 3x3 plates as an example. If you press it with parchment it will apply the force across the entire surface area (9 square inches) so you'd get about 2222 psi. But if instead you fill a 2x2 tea bag and press that, the pressure will only/mainly be exerted on that 2x2 packet so you'd be getting up to 5000 psi instead. I have zero background in this stuff so hopefully someone can tell me if I'm crazy here.
You're not crazy, that's exactly right.
When pressures were discussed earlier in the thread, the consensus was that 6kpsi was sufficient to achieve best results. That figure was based on chip size, not plate size.
It's not time effective to press chips smaller than a square inch, so 6k lbs or 3 tons is a good minimum amount of force to shoot for when choosing a tool.
With a ten ton h-press, you could effectively press a 1x3 inch enchilada or burrito. That would be about an eighth in a single press, and close to a gram out with high quality starting material!
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BoogerMan
Well-Known Member
That's the name! Boveda! I couldn't remember it. Thanks!
Yep, your math is right. That's what we have sort of debated before. I like to think I'm squishing a 1"x1" nug so that way if I say I'm using 10,000 lbs, I also mean I'm using 10,000 psi
makes my head hurt less. Math is hard lol.I just realized those RosinWorks plates require a flat coil as the heater. That means you will need 2 e-nails with 2 flat coils to run those.
I see they offer the heater setup for $150 extra which is nice and probably cheaper than buying 2 e-nails. However, if one stops working/breaks, you are sort of shit out of luck for a while.
I'm not trying to steer anyone away from those RosinWorks plates as they look super nice, I just want everyone to know details before purchasing (to help avoid impulse buys like I did with the d-nail press
luckily it only took 2 days to get rid of it on CL thanks goodness). Just remember it is not like the local hardware store carries replacement flat coils and e-nails (maybe one day haha). I guess smokes shops probably do now a days but they probably charge and arm and a leg.I like being able to use $10 soldering irons
especially because if they break I can go to my 24 hour 7 day a week open Walmart to get a new set. And if my H press breaks, Amazon 2 day delivery (or 1 day for a little extra) or Harbor Freight right down the street for a new one 
Just food for thought
I definitely think you are right though, the prices will eventually drop when more people start offering similar products.
I just really hope they offer round plates too. The bud gets squished into a circle. Why wouldn't you want the plates to be circular too?
Maybe I'm biased because I'm using round plates, but I truly think round is the best shape for pressing (it probably doesn't make any difference, I just like to tell myself this haha).
Anyways, everything is heating up now. Will post some comparison squishes and yields soon.
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Monsoon
Well-Known Member
The 3.5" and 5" plates use a quad e-nail with 2 per plateI see they offer the heater setup for $150 extra which is nice and probably cheaper than buying 2 e-nails. However, if one stops working/breaks, you are sort of shit out of luck for a while.
I'm not trying to steer anyone away from those RosinWorks plates as they look super nice, I just want everyone to know details before purchasing (to help avoid impulse buys like I did with the d-nail press
I like being able to use $10 soldering irons
Just food for thought
. I actually see that as an advantage since it can easily be replaced via a 3rd party versus a custom heater, I guess for the same reason you like your soldering irons except in a different price bracket and time frame. If something were to break, I'd be okay waiting a couple weeks for replacements. I think they've put a fair bit of research and testing into them but they are still in the first run phase and should probably be considered a "beta". Worse case scenario I'll be able to eat the cost of any setup I buy, if you're a low income patient who depends on it you should probably wait a bit longer to reduce the risk.
BoogerMan
Well-Known Member
@Monsoon good info man! Everything is personal preference when it comes to this stuff so I'm very excited to see the setup you end up with!! (If money isn't an issue, why not just drop $3,500 on the HardPress hahahahahah Holy shit that thing is spendy. Looks nice though and could probably pass as a kitchen appliance to people who didn't know better - looks like a giant toaster or bread maker to me lol)
Okay so I was able to do my first yield tests.
Material is super skunk. I get about a 12% yield from BHO. It's decent stuff but definitely not crazy high in thc. I'd guess maybe 15% thc if I had to put a number on it.
Here is how I performed this first test.
Both presses were at 210-215F
The vise press I set my torque wrench to 40 ft lbs
The H press I set to 4 tons (8,000 lbs of pressure)
No idea if these are equivalent but I don't like going over 40 ft lbs on the vise and I'll be sticking with 3-4 tons on the H press when being used.
I got 4 nugs, each weighing about 0.6g.
I pressed 2 nugs in the vise and 2 nugs in the H press; 1 nug was pressed at a time for about 30 seconds. After I pressed the 2 nugs in the vise, I put them both together and did a second press for another 30 seconds. Same for the nugs being used with the H press. The vise seemed to yield slightly more in the second press than the H press did just from eyeballing it (meaning the H press got out more oil in its first press, probably from the higher pressure?).
@zach707 here are what my squished nugs look like (the one in the bottom left isn't round because I probably didn't ball it up very well. It is probably the nug on the very right in the pic above. You can see how it comes to a point on the left side in the pic above).
So here are the results:
Vise yielded 10% (0.12g from 1.2g)
H press yielded 12.5% (0.15g from 1.2g)
I am going to conclude that the two setups perform damn near the same. The H press may have yielded slightly more because of the higher pressure? It also could be because the nugs used in the H press were maybe slightly better than those used in the vise. I'll do more testing tomorrow to see if the H press always gets a slightly higher yield.
H press rosin on top, vise rosin on bottom. Both are very delicious!
I have said this before but Ill repeat it for everyone
If you have a work bench already, the vise setup is the cheapest way to go. If you don't have anything, both setups may cost around the same depending on how much a work bench costs you.
I personally prefer the H press now because of the plates being mounted horizontally. This makes it easier to center the nug and I don't have to hold the paper in place when I begin to add pressure. Whereas with the vise, you have to hold the paper in place until you apply some pressure so that it holds itself in place (gravity tends to make things fall if you don't hold it in place lol).
However, @Joel W. informed me that you can mount the vise vertically which would make the plates horizontal. I don't have anything to mount my vise to vertically, but it is a great point that I would have never thought about doing!
Anyways, now knowing that info about the vise, I feel like both setups are about the same IMO.
One last point, the H press can be used with much larger plates if wanted. The vise limits you on size (from what I know/understand).
More tests tomorrow! Night y'all
Holy shit that thing is spendy. Looks nice though and could probably pass as a kitchen appliance to people who didn't know better - looks like a giant toaster or bread maker to me lol)Okay so I was able to do my first yield tests.
Material is super skunk. I get about a 12% yield from BHO. It's decent stuff but definitely not crazy high in thc. I'd guess maybe 15% thc if I had to put a number on it.
Here is how I performed this first test.
Both presses were at 210-215F
The vise press I set my torque wrench to 40 ft lbs
The H press I set to 4 tons (8,000 lbs of pressure)
No idea if these are equivalent but I don't like going over 40 ft lbs on the vise and I'll be sticking with 3-4 tons on the H press when being used.
I got 4 nugs, each weighing about 0.6g.
I pressed 2 nugs in the vise and 2 nugs in the H press; 1 nug was pressed at a time for about 30 seconds. After I pressed the 2 nugs in the vise, I put them both together and did a second press for another 30 seconds. Same for the nugs being used with the H press. The vise seemed to yield slightly more in the second press than the H press did just from eyeballing it (meaning the H press got out more oil in its first press, probably from the higher pressure?).
@zach707 here are what my squished nugs look like (the one in the bottom left isn't round because I probably didn't ball it up very well. It is probably the nug on the very right in the pic above. You can see how it comes to a point on the left side in the pic above).
So here are the results:
Vise yielded 10% (0.12g from 1.2g)
H press yielded 12.5% (0.15g from 1.2g)
I am going to conclude that the two setups perform damn near the same. The H press may have yielded slightly more because of the higher pressure? It also could be because the nugs used in the H press were maybe slightly better than those used in the vise. I'll do more testing tomorrow to see if the H press always gets a slightly higher yield.
H press rosin on top, vise rosin on bottom. Both are very delicious!
I have said this before but Ill repeat it for everyone
If you have a work bench already, the vise setup is the cheapest way to go. If you don't have anything, both setups may cost around the same depending on how much a work bench costs you.
I personally prefer the H press now because of the plates being mounted horizontally. This makes it easier to center the nug and I don't have to hold the paper in place when I begin to add pressure. Whereas with the vise, you have to hold the paper in place until you apply some pressure so that it holds itself in place (gravity tends to make things fall if you don't hold it in place lol).
However, @Joel W. informed me that you can mount the vise vertically which would make the plates horizontal. I don't have anything to mount my vise to vertically, but it is a great point that I would have never thought about doing!
Anyways, now knowing that info about the vise, I feel like both setups are about the same IMO.
One last point, the H press can be used with much larger plates if wanted. The vise limits you on size (from what I know/understand).
More tests tomorrow! Night y'all
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GuyLeDuche
^ "Eat a bag of Dick's!"
I'm not sure about this tech, oil doesn't actually dissolve in PG, it's just barely suspended with vigorous blending. It will always separate with time, that's why products like EJMix use a blend of PEGs. Not saying this is a deal-breaker, but I think it may be a key point. Smarter folk than I need to think on it lol
simpleasthcis
... As a box of ....
PG should handle about 1% oil by weight http://dowac.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/7215, but your point is taken (and why I mentioned PEG 400). If the goal is oil solubility, there are clearly better choices (like butane). I'm highly curious what would happen to a dry puck that had a few drops of Everclear dropped on it right before pressing. But the goal here is not solubility. This 1% by weight will be a small amount, certainly not worth trying on its own. PEG may very well be better, I am just not familiar with its safety profile.
PG has distinct advantages over water as a medium for transferring heat to the oils. It will get hot faster with a specific heat .8 vs 1 for water - if it takes 10 Joules of energy to change the temp of water, it only takes 8 Joules to make that same change in PG. This means the puck can spend less time under heat or use less heat. In either case, this is advantageous for preservation of desirable volatiles like terpenes.
Furthermore, it has a boiling point of 370F vs 212F for water. What that means is that the water will never get past 212F regardless of your external temp settings. After 212F it becomes vapor and leaves the system. PG would be able to bring higher temperatures into the system. If the ideal extraction temperature for oil is 200F, this difference would not matter. If the ideal oil temperature was 275F, this would matter a great deal.
Seems like it would be worth a shot from a heat transfer perspective. The results (successful or not) might provide some insight into what is actually going on inside the puck under compression. I have read many here postulating that jets of steam push the oil out. Great! If PG is worse than H2O, this test might tell us that very thing! The better our understanding of the mechanism at work here, the more likely we are to find the right variables to manipulate to improve production. Again, worth a shot.
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BoogerMan
Well-Known Member
I'll give this a go. Sounds interesting enough to me. I have PG and VG.
So I dry 2 nugs out at 75F (room temp) overnight? Or for how long?
Or should I speed it up and toss them in the toaster oven?
Then I toss one nug in a jar with a leaf (or Boveda or whatever you want to use to get humidity up) and let it sit for a night to make sure the nug gets to 65% humidity. I may leave it in there longer if needed. I'll kind of go by how the bud feels.
But how will I hydrate with PG?
Will I just use a dropper to put some drops on the nug? How many drops or mL should I use?
Should I submerge the nug completely? For how long?
How will we know if the H2O bud and the PG bud have around the same amount of "moisture"? Or does it not really matter?
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Awesome @BoogerMan! You ask great questions, and I don't really have all the answers... Here's what I would do.
1) Place test nugs in freezer for a day or so. In the past my material has come out dry/brittle from the freezer. This seems like a better way of removing moisture than heat (because other things would evaporate too), but I would try that next if the water didn't freeze out. Freezing will also burst cell walls, which should lead to better extraction of oil. Getting them dried out is crucial so the PG nug is actually a PG nug. Tthe drier the better. (VG has a significantly higher viscosity, so I would try PG first. If PG looks promising, then try VG?) Oh yeah, I would dry both out rather than leaving the H2O moist to make for better test conditions.
2) Add some drops of PG/H2O to each nug respectively, maybe with a little massage as the moisture content improves. The actual volume of PG/H2O is probably not relevant at this stage, so just try to get them to be the same moistness. Submersing them would work too, but I'd worry about losing oil/trichomes to the solution. Ideally the end result is two nugs that seem about like what you normally press. It would be very difficult to ensure they have the same moisture level, but I don't think this is too important. Not soaking.
3) Press and weigh results. It might be nice to have their individual dry weights from 1) and individual moisturized weights from 2). Then we could know both rosin weight/dry weight percentage as well as rosin weight/moist weight percentage.
1) Place test nugs in freezer for a day or so. In the past my material has come out dry/brittle from the freezer. This seems like a better way of removing moisture than heat (because other things would evaporate too), but I would try that next if the water didn't freeze out. Freezing will also burst cell walls, which should lead to better extraction of oil. Getting them dried out is crucial so the PG nug is actually a PG nug. Tthe drier the better. (VG has a significantly higher viscosity, so I would try PG first. If PG looks promising, then try VG?) Oh yeah, I would dry both out rather than leaving the H2O moist to make for better test conditions.
2) Add some drops of PG/H2O to each nug respectively, maybe with a little massage as the moisture content improves. The actual volume of PG/H2O is probably not relevant at this stage, so just try to get them to be the same moistness. Submersing them would work too, but I'd worry about losing oil/trichomes to the solution. Ideally the end result is two nugs that seem about like what you normally press. It would be very difficult to ensure they have the same moisture level, but I don't think this is too important. Not soaking.
3) Press and weigh results. It might be nice to have their individual dry weights from 1) and individual moisturized weights from 2). Then we could know both rosin weight/dry weight percentage as well as rosin weight/moist weight percentage.
BoogerMan
Well-Known Member
Sweet thank you! I just tossed two 0.98g nugs of auto white diesel haze into the freezer so we will see how they are doing tomorrow!
I also just picked up some grade 2 titanium foil 0.005" thick from titaniumgoat. I believe @Monsoon posted this and asked if collecting oil would work on this but didn't get a response IIRC. Since it was only $5 shipped for a 6"x6" sheet, I figured I would give it a shot. If it works this should be a very good reusable alternative to parchment.
http://www.titaniumgoat.com/windscreens.html
If the Ti foil works, we can also start experimenting with SS plates and more pressure.
Depending on how this goes, I may look into getting a 20 ton press... I really like how small those damn PotterUSA jewelry presses are but they are pretty pricy. I gotta have a pressure gauge too and a bottle jack with pressure gauge is fairly expensive as well. It would be about a $1,000 setup, maybe a little more depending on how much the SS plates and heaters end up costing (not sure if 60w soldering irons can sufficiently heat SS evenly). At least I could sell my H press setup locally for probably $500-600 which would help ease the pain of the total cost.
Some good info about titanium foil. It has a yield strength (or yield point) of 275 Mpa which is 39,885 psi.
http://www.espimetals.com/index.php/online-catalog/830-titanium-cp
If I get the 20 ton jewelry press, I will probably only press at 10 tons. It will just be a lot easier to get up to 10 tons using a 20 ton jack (compared to my 10 ton H press). So titanium foil should hold up fine at 10 tons (20,000 psi) at low temps (maybe 150F?).
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Quetzalcoatl
DEADY GUERRERO/DIRT COBAIN/GEORGE KUSH
The whole point of rosin is that it's solventless oil and easy to make ![:\](/i/s/hmm.gif "Hmm :\")
And PG is harsh, it's what gives the "throat hit" in ecig juice and some people are sensitive to it. Dunno about dabbing it...
And PG is harsh, it's what gives the "throat hit" in ecig juice and some people are sensitive to it. Dunno about dabbing it...
BoogerMan
Well-Known Member
I'm hoping that the PG separates from the oil. Will it not?The whole point of rosin is that it's solventless oil and easy to make
And PG is harsh, it's what gives the "throat hit" in ecig juice and some people are sensitive to it. Dunno about dabbing it...
If PG is going to be left in the oil I won't be doing this more than once lol. I'm not worried about PG being bad to inhale like butane is, I'm more worried about it making the rosin have a harsher throat hit... I was thinking that like the moisture it would be gone by the end of the press but I guess it won't if we don't use high enough temps then it will still be there huh?
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My guess is that there will be very little in the extracted rosin - the majority will be left in the leaves, just like the majority of the H2O is left behind in a normal pressing. Moreso if temps are below 370F. This is why I wanted to know the pre-press dry and moist weights to help account for how much is getting in to the rosin. With the post-press weight in addition, we should have a good idea of where the PG went. But I bet a dab of it will be more telling than anything else.
PG will evaporate, but it is slow to do so, and thus undesirable for many using this technique. We'll have to see how much makes it out. Might not be enough to matter. We'll see!
PG will evaporate, but it is slow to do so, and thus undesirable for many using this technique. We'll have to see how much makes it out. Might not be enough to matter. We'll see!
CrazyDiamond
Crosseyed & Painless
I did a 190 degree press with my 4.5" Irwin vise and @Joel W. OG plates...yup one of the original square config...I got wax/butter consistency. At 210-220, I get almost shatter if it sits a day, off the press and room temp, it's perfect; not gooey and not flying pieces of shatter. I do hydrate my nug prior and let it sit a few minutes, then press. I also tried a press from start up to about 190 degrees, came out gooey. As others have said, YMMV...I'm not so sold on the minimum 3 tons of force to get the best...I don't know what my yields are but I can tell you it looks a lot better than my yields from QWISO and I was quite happy with that. I'm pretty sure my vise doesn't come any where near 3 tons, although I haven't done the calculations.
clearlight
Well-Known Member
Anybody tried this kind of deal? or is this much folding of the parchment a no-no?
http://i.imgur.com/71eTK6O.jpg
See, the stuff wants to escape by running up between two pieces of parchment. And the edge stuff does that just fine but the center stuff has harder time escaping and people end up with sticky middles and have to re-press a couple times.
Was wondering if this accordion design would help because, well you can imagine a bud in there, the whole thing would be touching a fold in the parchment, not just the edges. But maybe pressing so hard right on those folds and then trying to collect off them would end up breaking off little pieces of the parchment into the product?
I don't have any material to try this with today, or even any parchment for the demo pic, but just had this brain fart and thought maybe it would help someone. Have never pressed any bud myself, but use rosin tek to clean up material that comes around if it has too much junk in it that can be seen under magnification. They'll give me this nasty opaque sludge, I press it through a screen w the hair straightener and it comes out clear and stable!
http://i.imgur.com/71eTK6O.jpg
See, the stuff wants to escape by running up between two pieces of parchment. And the edge stuff does that just fine but the center stuff has harder time escaping and people end up with sticky middles and have to re-press a couple times.
Was wondering if this accordion design would help because, well you can imagine a bud in there, the whole thing would be touching a fold in the parchment, not just the edges. But maybe pressing so hard right on those folds and then trying to collect off them would end up breaking off little pieces of the parchment into the product?
I don't have any material to try this with today, or even any parchment for the demo pic, but just had this brain fart and thought maybe it would help someone. Have never pressed any bud myself, but use rosin tek to clean up material that comes around if it has too much junk in it that can be seen under magnification. They'll give me this nasty opaque sludge, I press it through a screen w the hair straightener and it comes out clear and stable!
Monsoon
Well-Known Member
I was reading elsewhere that collection might be a problem with the using metal but it might not be as much of an issue with burrito/enchilada tech if most of it escapes the platens. Worth a try for $5 anyway.
Never seen that before, definitely worth a try to see if it helps. Lots of people have been trying to figure out how to better channel the oil out, folding the parchment like that is certainly interesting. Depending how this evolves, we could very well all be origami experts 3 months from now
.Good to hear, that adds some confirmation that lower temps result in more buddery rosin. I prefer shatter and pull-n-snap so it's good to know I can dial it in a bit.
EpicNameGuy
Well-Known Member
@Monsoon good info man! Everything is personal preference when it comes to this stuff so I'm very excited to see the setup you end up with!! (If money isn't an issue, why not just drop $3,500 on the HardPress hahahahahah
Okay so I was able to do my first yield tests.
Material is super skunk. I get about a 12% yield from BHO. It's decent stuff but definitely not crazy high in thc. I'd guess maybe 15% thc if I had to put a number on it.
Here is how I performed this first test.
Both presses were at 210-215F
The vise press I set my torque wrench to 40 ft lbs
The H press I set to 4 tons (8,000 lbs of pressure)
No idea if these are equivalent but I don't like going over 40 ft lbs on the vise and I'll be sticking with 3-4 tons on the H press when being used.
I got 4 nugs, each weighing about 0.6g.
I pressed 2 nugs in the vise and 2 nugs in the H press; 1 nug was pressed at a time for about 30 seconds. After I pressed the 2 nugs in the vise, I put them both together and did a second press for another 30 seconds. Same for the nugs being used with the H press. The vise seemed to yield slightly more in the second press than the H press did just from eyeballing it (meaning the H press got out more oil in its first press, probably from the higher pressure?).
@zach707 here are what my squished nugs look like (the one in the bottom left isn't round because I probably didn't ball it up very well. It is probably the nug on the very right in the pic above. You can see how it comes to a point on the left side in the pic above).
So here are the results:
Vise yielded 10% (0.12g from 1.2g)
H press yielded 12.5% (0.15g from 1.2g)
I am going to conclude that the two setups perform damn near the same. The H press may have yielded slightly more because of the higher pressure? It also could be because the nugs used in the H press were maybe slightly better than those used in the vise. I'll do more testing tomorrow to see if the H press always gets a slightly higher yield.
H press rosin on top, vise rosin on bottom. Both are very delicious!
I have said this before but Ill repeat it for everyone
If you have a work bench already, the vise setup is the cheapest way to go. If you don't have anything, both setups may cost around the same depending on how much a work bench costs you.
I personally prefer the H press now because of the plates being mounted horizontally. This makes it easier to center the nug and I don't have to hold the paper in place when I begin to add pressure. Whereas with the vise, you have to hold the paper in place until you apply some pressure so that it holds itself in place (gravity tends to make things fall if you don't hold it in place lol).
However, @Joel W. informed me that you can mount the vise vertically which would make the plates horizontal. I don't have anything to mount my vise to vertically, but it is a great point that I would have never thought about doing!
Anyways, now knowing that info about the vise, I feel like both setups are about the same IMO.
One last point, the H press can be used with much larger plates if wanted. The vise limits you on size (from what I know/understand).
More tests tomorrow! Night y'all
Great stuff, thanks @BoogerMan ! The whole cost assessment comparison of your vice vs h-press is very much appreciated.
I have a pretty stupid question now though. Consider that I am shop-stupid... I was of the impression the h-press needed to also be mounted to a workbench. So far, my major hurdle for investing in a better set up in the lack of proper space to set up a workbench. I'm also not thrilled on investing a couple hundred just in the bench, but to my point...
Does the H-Press not need a workbench? You seem to imply that without a bench, each setup could be cost comparable but I assumed both required it. I sort of read your phrasing to imply it does not.
A small thought on this... As at least one other person mentioned, PG has some properties associated with it that would be seen by many at first glance to be a downside. IIRC, it's carcinogenic at dab temps. PLEASE correct me if I am wrong here, but it's one of the chief reasons I've heard to never dab any of the fluid in a cart, whether THC or nic based.
The other thing to consider might best be illustrated with an example. We do a lot of residual solvent testing at the lab. We rate the itemized results in units of PPM (parts-per-millionth). Generally speaking, it is VERY difficult to remove solvent below our equipment sensitivity thresholds and presents a challenge for many to remain within the state regulated limits. That is to say, much of the product presumed to be "properly purged" by customers still shows PPM above state limits of butane, for example.
My point being, IMO (I'm not a scientist) the likelihood that absolutely 0 additive in the flower makes it to the rosin is highly unlikely. If you have heavy metals or pesticides in your flower, it generally finds its way to your concentrate for solvent-based extractions. Maybe pressing is different, but you're literally pressing the PG into the flower and into the rosin so I am thinking it will remain in the rosin. I should ask if we test for PG... it's a bit obscure as a tested solvent for our purposes at the lab, but I know we do have some rather obscure solvents tested for already...
If there is ANY PG transferred, and if it is known carcinogenic at the temps it would be subjected to, that is a serious negative of course.
On the other hand, many crazy things have been attempted in the name of science. For example, crushing flower with a hair straightener... lol.
Thinking outside the box is good. Those were just some initial thoughts.
Edit: I almost forgot another point... IMO, one of the best advantages rosin extraction has going for it is your raffinate, aka left over extracted plant material, can be re-purposed after extraction. By using PG or another additive, you are surely negating this. On the other hand, if you are seeing large added yields of quality output, that could outweigh the inability to reuse the raffinate post-extraction. Just another thing to consider.
tepictoton
Well-Known Member
How about using d-limonene instead of pg?
This is probably not a great forum to be debating the safety of PG, but you raise a valid concern. It is true that under incomplete combustion, PG will yield some nasty stuff like formaldehyde. But, and this is an important but, if you are reaching temperatures that will cause such incomplete combustion, you will have just as many nasty byproducts from the oil and terpenes and such. The key here is that high temperature makes EVERYTHING unsafe.
The temperature of combustion is necessarily much greater than the temperature of vaporization. PG vaporizes into pure PG vapor at 370F, so that's our safe starting point. The autoignition temperature of PG is 700F, so call that combustion. Most actives vaporize in the 400F vicinity. If you are greatly exceeding that temp, you are likely combusting oil, and PG is the least of your worries. This formaldehyde idea has been tossed around and discredited for a while in the ecig community. Lots of studies saying no formaldehyde, a couple problematic studies notwithstanding. Pardon the tautology, but if you vape at safe temperatures, vaping is safe.
All that said, I am not proselytizing PG. I just think we can do a better job of getting heat into the system. This is one attempt at doing so, and a safe one at reasonable temperatures. If you try something else and you get better results, let us know!
EpicNameGuy
Well-Known Member
Nor am I trying to debate it. I've done a lot of personal and professional research on cannabis infused products over the passed two years and a lot of that has come from very comprehensive threads on this website. I'm pretty sure the cautionary remarks on dabbing anything with PG were sourced either from the gigantic pg/peg/vg/ejmix thread or possibly from icmag threads. I neither want to debate about it nor am I familiar with chemistry enough to legitimately do so. I'm just trying to basically regurgitate information that's already likely on this forum somewhere to try to apply it to the current discussion.
I appreciate your providing the information on vaporization vs combustion temps. I also appreciate your mentioning the formaldehyde in ecig debunking. I am a huge proponent of ecigs as a cessation solution as I personally quit smoking using one.
That said, I'm pretty sure formaldehyde or some other carcinogen(s) are found to be in the PG (or VG?) vapor when used in very high wattage box mods, but not in general usage pen vapes. Don't quote me on that, that's just what I think I recall.
My concerns have nothing to do with whether PG is safe for vaporization in ecigs. My concern pertains to the fact that I don't believe PG will be completely vaporized / purged out of either the flower or the rosin when subjected to those temps for the times rosin is actually pressed out.
From observation, when folks are using vacuum ovens to purge out butane (an easier to remove solvent IIRC) they are very rarely removing all of it. And, we seem to know, that if you whip the oil with butane in it, they end up merging somewhat which makes a full-purge more laborious or perhaps impossible without extended purge times. There is almost always some PPM residual left.
So, based on that observation, I am thinking that in a press, out of vacuum, a harder to boil off solution is not likely to full purge out of the flower and since pressure and heat are involved, it almost certainly will transfer into the rosin. That's guesswork based on perhaps inapplicable examples. It's also worth noting that people are almost always pressing below 370F, so that would imply impartial vaporization I think.
If PG gets into the rosin, you are now elevating the subjected temp of PG to that typically subjected to oil, often in excess of 700F.
Yes, one could say "well benzene is likely already being produced" but I doubt many would say "well, some carcinogens may be being produced, so lets add more". That is my train of thought, at least.
I'm not trying to say you are wrong. I'm curious myself. Hence why I am wondering if we check for PG in our VOC residual solvent testing as this would be the most straightforward way to definitively answer the question by testing the rosin and the flower post-press. I don't think we do, though
Anyways, all the power to you. I just personally doubt a perfect purge of PG from the rosin and/or flower is possible via a short exposure of temps below PG's vaporization temp and, for me, presence of PG in my rosin or my flower sort of takes away the best aspects of rosin for me personally.
Regarding someone mentioning d-limonene as the carrier instead, I think that'd definitely be a step up from a consumption stand point. I have no idea if its ideal otherwise. You will definitely alter the taste though. Some find the addition of Terpenes to concentrate to be a big deal. I've definitely been using Terpenes in my vape pens for about a year now and I think they're great from a flavor and effect enhancement perspective. YMMV.
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Delirium_trigger
Well-Known Member
Does anyone have any experience with aluminum alloy 6061-T6511? I found a place online that will cut me some 5x2.5x1 plates for $22 each. I figure I can put 2 soldering irons in each plate and jb weld a collar to the top plate.
I don't know how to read the spec sheet on that particular alloy but I saw nothing less than 30,000 psi listed.
I don't know how to read the spec sheet on that particular alloy but I saw nothing less than 30,000 psi listed.