The Bud Toaster - (currently: Model 14, version 3)

Hippie Dickie said:

Price is due to American labor cost (mine) plus R&D expense and intellectual property license fee.

The way i see it is if the Bud Toaster is any good, Chinese slaves will be turning them out by the millions by 2012 and it will be in Great-Wall-Mart for $29.95. my target audience is the early adopter, and people who want a limited edition, high quality piece of techno-art, made in USA. by me.

And everyone is fully informed about the design and what is in my device: only Borosilicate Glass!

See, i use the Bud Toaster every day -- and, as i've said before, The Cube Rules!

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Hippie, you're pricing yourself out of the market. I hate to be the one to tell you that but its true. Im sure The Cube is awesome and it was on my list of "must haves" but not for $500.00. Look at what $500 buys you out there right now. You can get a Cloud for $350, you can get an Oracle for the low $400s if you shop around, Volcanos are in your price range.. Im not saying your vape isnt better/on par/worth what these others cost, I just think you're going to have a hard sell. I personally expected this unit to come in under $200.00. I obviously was incorrect.

Before you pop for 1000 of these things, you really should do some market research. I just dont see you being able to sell even 100 of those for $500.00 but at $200-$250, you'd probably sell them faster than you could make them and as someone whos had his stuff ripped off by the Chinese, you're better off trying to move quantity while you can than jacking the price up and hoping people pay for American made because guess what, they dont and Im speaking from first hand experience. If the unit is a success, you will have about a 120 day window before a copy hits the market. Id be more interested in capitalizing on that and creating my market rather than selling 10 units and then watching the floodgates open. Take it from someone who's already been there.

you really should do some market research

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i agree. The first 20 units are for that purpose.

i think i would be fooling myself to think i could ever compete on price against China -- no matter what strategy i employ -- i'm the wrong guy, i've got the wrong skill set -- so i'm not even going to try.

While i certainly respect the models you cite, i humbly suggest the Bud Toaster has a feature set that is unmatched by those units. Other than the Bud Toaster, only the Vapolution has an all glass vapor path. And can be battery powered. But only the Bud Toaster has digital temperature control and digital readout.

Hippie Dickie said:

you really should do some market research

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i agree. The first 20 units are for that purpose.

i think i would be fooling myself to think i could ever compete on price against China -- no matter what strategy i employ -- i'm the wrong guy, i've got the wrong skill set -- so i'm not even going to try.

While i certainly respect the models you cite, i humbly suggest the Bud Toaster has a feature set that is unmatched by those units. Other than the Bud Toaster, only the Vapolution has an all glass vapor path. And can be battery powered. But only the Bud Toaster has digital temperature control and digital readout.

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I agree with you, I just think $500 is out of the realm of what people will pay. Dont get me wrong, I want you to succeed, thats why Im bringing this up. I dont expect you can compete with China but you have to realize that if you come out with one at a $500 pricetag, the China version will be probably $199 on launch and drop to about $75.00 over the course of a couple of years.

Im basing this strictly on my own dealings with Chinese manufacturers. They've taken my product, which sold for $900, knocked it off in about a 120 day timeframe from when I shipped the first unit out and debuted the copy of my product for $199.00. These days, the same thing can be bought on Ebay sold by many sellers for less than $100.00. And you're right, no one in America can compete with that $100 pricetag. I couldnt even buy the materials for that. I also havent sold a unit in over a year when I was selling them fairly briskly at one point.

If you close the gap down to something people can swallow, you can compete. I dont know what one of these things costs to make but Id imagine you should be able to turn a decent profit at a $200-$300 price range and even if a knockoff comes out at $150.00, people can swallow that difference. They cant swallow a $350 price difference.

I also dont think you will have the issue I had trying to compete with them. The problem I had was that my product consisted mostly of stainless steel and even buying from the cheapest manufacturer I could find, I still had well over $400 in materials alone. I dont think you'll run into that issue.

Good points poop!

Hi Norb, haven't been back here since I posted last Oct. See things are moving forward slowly but surely.

I do think you need to consider alternatives, even if you sell say 100 of these initially like Poop mentions sell fairly well initially, then demand drops off.

Some of it is marketing, some quality product.

There are a number of points, I haven't been able to see addressed (not having read all 37pgs, but skimmed the 1st few and last 25).

Now say the marketing model is, dreaming of course, more like an Apple product (though they have an 'established' brand name)...where you're going for the 'premium' space. And while the competitors have, and will come out with some aspects superior to the iPhone/iPad/iPod phenom, Apple still sells a gazillion of these.

But Apple *always* is in development, trying to stay ahead of the competition, but coming out with updates that leave the others back to the drawing boards to come up with their version (copies) to compete.

What I'm seeing here, is that when you begin production of the 1st commercial model, you should consider designing Ver#2 to come out in say 6mo later, let your competitors in China make the knock-off copies, and by the time they come out and have marketed their copies to the point your sales drop off, you start selling Ver#2 with that superior & enhanced design. It's a dog-eat-dog world, Apple knows it, and if Apple missed a step with an update, the competitors gain ground. You have to see it that way too, innovate, improve the product or get sales cannibalized by the competitors.

Not even sure I should make some points on how you might improve the design here, rather than to PM you those thoughts so you can take the next 6mo and incorporate those into the next design... but a few points that can be put out in the next post

Wishing you all the success, been following since the old PG days, since I rec'd you seek the RC forums for power sources.

I just think $500 is out of the realm of what people will pay

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i disagree -- i would have agreed with you back when a quality oz cost $10, and my first car was $2500, and my house in Menlo Park cost $52,000 ... but today? an oz cost $500. Nuf said, eh?

i don't think Stork & Bickel have any problem selling the Volcano for $500 to $700 (digital).

And you guys think i'm trying to build a business here. Ain't so. i've got a day job that has at least a 5 year 24/7 time line laid out in front of me -- more likely 10 years, at my rate of progress. i'm making a limited run of a TechnoArt piece.

i have a more altruistic aim. i'm seeding the market -- hell, all the details are open source. Vaporizing is the best way (my opinion) to consume THC, and all glass, digital control is the only way (again, my opinion) to vaporize.

Zen -- what was your PG handle?

I still have not been able to see what a complete entire unit is going to look like, in any of the pictures. I just see the top of the Cube, without any power supply driving the unit.

Can you post an image of the entire unit as shipped?

For me, and I suppose *many*, we'd prefer a self-contained device; battery power source *integral* with the unit, as any modern day electrical 'appliance' is expected. Those 123 bats, where designed for auto usage, but have found their way into portable power tools. All of those tools are self-contained units, perhaps with battery packs, but those like a power drill, the packs slide into/attach to the drill to make it a complete singular unit.

Want to see such a unit make by you. Don't know the exact diamensions, but you mentioned 2x18650. If you have a cube or cylinder design of sufficient size would it not be possible to have a battery compartment, that either attaches or is built-in such that you have 4x18650? The 4 batteries laid parallel together, seems like that inside a very slim package or detachable compartment could fit on the bottom of your cube or cylinder vap to make it something like the size of a tall can of beer, like a Fosters .

Not sure how much your costs are, but if you went with the superior Li-Ion chemistry of the newer Panasonic cells, along with multiple safety circuits being employed in those 2900ma AW 18650 cells, I'm wondering how much extra costs to the final product if you went with 4x18650, as that would give you 2x the runtime. If you contacted AW, perhaps you could get a discount on his 18650 if you commit to buy 1,000units, lol? well worth a try, maybe you get a small discount on 100 units.

If you designed a detachable battery pack (or one that slides in and out from a latching bottom door bay?), like a power drill, then people could buy a 2nd battery pack, so you could go with only 2x18650 that way, and then they wouldn't need to immediately recharge batteries. Better still, would be to have 2 packs of 4x18650 ready to roll.

Going to PM you the other design changes I was thinking of that *might* be worth looking into, later for Ver#2 you need to be working on in secret *now*. Put me on the initial wait list for Ver#2

As poop mentioned. As much as I wish I could afford a $500 vap, with super nice solid wood design, etc; and 'art' piece' Many peeps just don't want to spend that much, just want the functionality. If you can get to an less high-end model, manufactured in China if need be (why not, *all* the corporate America, including small businesses do it) of all plastic components, and get your cost down to say $300. I think you could end up selling over 1,000 of those.

If you can design such an animal now, and then go on all the vap/herb forums and do market research asking/polling people what they would be willing to pay, then put into production as fast as possible; you beat out the knock-off competitors and sell enough product to make ver#2 the next short-term goal. Not many people are going to buy older versions of iPhones, no matter how cheap the 'official' product is.

Same, I'm guessing for the 'old-style' knock-off vap units that come out in 6mo from your competitors, by which time you have the Ver#2 ready to roll, and kick their arses.

Can you post an image of the entire unit as shipped?

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no, sorry, i haven't made the final battery sled and leather case, yet. So the shipping kit is not available for pictures.

we'd prefer a self-contained device

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yeah, me too! but the battery technology isn't here yet -- for the vape i want to use. Mainly, too heavy. i tried embedded batteries and that's not a vape i want to use. Don't get me wrong (i've said it several times before) i hate the cord. But it's better than embedded batteries at this point.

So, at this late stage, the Bud Toaster design and feature set is locked. There are a million possible mods, but none that seem to me necessary at this point.

The number of marijuana users in USA is about 35 million, probably 150 million world wide. i'm willing to bet 1000 will want what the Bud Toaster offers.

manufactured in China if need be

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while i applaud China digging itself out of the feudal age, i will never manufacture in China. i don't see any difference between $300 and $500 ... it surely doesn't affect my purchase decisions when i'm shopping for stuff.

then put into production as fast as possible

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LOL! "Fast" and Hippie Dickie don't exist in the same reality.

A tall can of Fosters??? Meh, The Cube Rules!

Hippie Dickie said:

i don't see any difference between $300 and $500 ... it surely doesn't affect my purchase decisions when i'm shopping for stuff.

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Well, dude.. a lot of us do. Perhaps thats why you dont see where Im coming from but hey, its your gig, stick to your guns.

I'd be sold on something that is e-cig like(even the moded models). I take model 14 v2 is designed in that same vein?

i'd have to say, no ... the e-cigs i've seen look like a cigarette or cigar. i can't get the heater and electronics into a package that small. 2" cube is the smallest i can make it.

Or, do you mean using an atomizer? no, the Bud Toaster uses a heater that can be set anywhere from room temperature up to 550F.

No, I was thinking size wise like those e-cigs that have the battery mod done to it. Something like this if possible, with a tip hanging out at the end. That way the user could try to pass it off as an e-cig with a large battery mod or something.

i wouldn't try to pass it off as a tobacco e-cig -- there still is a slight odor of cannabis to the vapor. And i could never fit this heater design into that small shell. Finally, the Bud Toaster can't run on a single 18650 -- at least two are required.

Thank you for the reply. Then I take it model 14 V2 is pretty much the smallest you can make it? Is your model battery powered or does it required being plug in?

Although the production Bud Toaster is now Model 14, Version 3 (V3), it is the same physical size and looks the same as Version 2 (V2). The differences are all internal.

Here are the salient features of the Bud Toaster:

• The vaporizer body is a 2" x 2" x 2" piece of mahogany wood (2" wood cube).[/*]

• Battery powered. A fully charged battery pack -- 2 batteries -- will provide 1 hour of power on vaping.[/*]

• Fast recharge -- each battery can be fully recharged in 15 minutes, for a total recharge time of 30 minutes.[/*]

• The battery pack connects to the cube via a 36" cable.[/*]

• All glass vapor path -- that is, only glass and bud in the air path. No metal screens, no plastic tubing.[/*]

• 90 seconds from power on to first toke.[/*]

• auto shutoff after 7minutes and 30 seconds of run time.[/*]

• Remembers last temperature setting and automatically returns to that setting for subsequent vape sessions, unless changed.[/*]

• Digital thermometer readout.[/*]

• Two buttons change the set point temperature --
  • each click of Button 1: increase temperature by 5F[/*]
  • each click of Button 2: decrease temperature by 4F[/*]
  [/*]

• Leather case and accessories.[/*]

I think I am sold. Is there extended or additional battery pack just in case? How much vape can this produce?

hey hippie,

I love your work, I have been trailing around this tread for ages, and watching your vaporizer develop, i'm glad to see your in the final days of your design, and getting ready to take the next step forward. It must be very pleasing to finally complete such a long project! I hope to be a customer, and while im sure it said it somewhere on this thread, I don't know what the price is, but I will probably buy regardless

Do you have any experience hooking your vape up to a bong, would you say, under the right circumstances, that it can produce a fair amount of vapor?

Thanks

good luck!

PhishCactus said:

hey hippie,

I love your work, I have been trailing around this tread for ages, and watching your vaporizer develop, i'm glad to see your in the final days of your design, and getting ready to take the next step forward. It must be very pleasing to finally complete such a long project! I hope to be a customer, and while im sure it said it somewhere on this thread, I don't know what the price is, but I will probably buy regardless

Do you have any experience hooking your vape up to a bong, would you say, under the right circumstances, that it can produce a fair amount of vapor?

Thanks

good luck!

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The price was mentioned a few posts back. $500.00

thanks

@lesvape - i should have mentioned this re: batteries -- there are two battery packs - total of 4 batteries. And i see them readily available on eBay as well as radio control hobby shops. So one pack lasts longer than it takes to recharge an exhausted pack.

Edit: (forgot to mention) the Bud Toaster accepts any DC voltage from 6vdc to 18vdc, so it will come with a car adapter (12v).

Also, there are two glass pieces -- a vial that holds the bud (1/2" dia by 1 3/8" long), and which can hold a joint's worth of bud, and a direct draw tube (1/2" dia by 4" long). There will be 5 sets of glassware with the basic unit.

Plus an additional direct draw tube (5/8" dia by 6" long). (plus extras).

There will also be a special direct draw tube for hash and concentrates. (plus extras).

@PhishCactus - i don't use a bong so i haven't pursued that aspect with this model design.

i loosely fill the vial about 1/3 to 1/2 full with shreaded bud (i never grind) and get more than a dozen hits of thick vapor. i stir once, half-way into the vape session, and the vapor gets thicker again.

i'm still dealing with some fit-and-trim issues that will resolve after i make several more units. Then i'll post a video to show how it works and the vapor produced. But really, the user reports will be more important.

Damn I am sold, minus the price sadly as I'm a broken student. But, so far this looks like it could be the best vape on the market, or at the very least for my needs.

btw do you have a picture of it with a battery pack hooked up?

Of course, this is my prototype pack - the battery pack will be a different presentation for the retail product.

It be interesting to see if you can get it built in or attached. But, maybe I will win the lottery one day and be able to buy this.

I have to agree with PoopMachine. It's very common for the developer / inventor of an item to have an overly subjective view of his baby. There are so many high quality options that are so inexpensive. Like the MFLB. Tough to present a $500 unit next to that $100 USA made unit unit that people are crazy about.

You can't set a market price based on how much blood, sweat and tears you have invested. The market itself sets the price.

I wish you all the best and would love to see this successful, but in my mind there's no more market for $500 vapes and you could wind up spending huge inventory and fabrication costs only to be forced to liquidate.

just to play devils advocate, i want to point out that i regularly see high end glass pieces sell for $500 or even $2000 all the time. Yeah, $500 may be more than many can spend, but there are PLENTY of folks who can afford this. there are are numerous examples outside of mj commerce. Compare a ford focus to bently. They both get you where you're going, but one cost more than most people's homes.

As hippie pointed out, volcanoes still sell even though there are chinese knock offs and high quality alternatives that do essentially the same thing for less than half the price.

It may not happen over night, or even in the first year, but i have no doubt hippie's first 1000 will all be purchased.

I dont know I have no doubt that this vaporizer will be amazing but for 500 he is eliminating a majority of the market and he may sell 1000 units at 500 but Im sure he could sell 15,000 at 199.99 no problem this thing would dominate the portable market! especially in times like this the most successful marketing is selling more units at a lower price.. i feel thats why the LB is so successful they offer a quality product that is extremely affordable and even at double their price you wuold be just as successful i feel.