He seems tighter than the back end of these grasshoppers.
Edit: still too soon . Sorry..
Discontinued The Grasshopper
- Thread starter midgetsanchez
- Start date
Edit: still too soon . Sorry..
syrupy
Authorized Buyer
This makes some good points. It reminds me of when the Hercules attachment for the Persei came out. There wasn't anything wrong with the product, but some of us were having issues with the complexity. I was frustrated at one point. What did @THC SCIENTIFIC do? He got on the phone, he got on Skype, emails, whatever it took to get it sorted. It really won me over, and I still recommend it for an oil unit. (Also I noticed he's handed off the CS duties, which makes sense once a company gets big enough.) That's how customer loyalty is won.
kingfisher
Well-Known Member
These guys remind me of myself when I first started out as an engineer. In terms of how I communicated to the customer. I'm great at solving problems and a good communicator normally. Except when dealing with quality concerns or warranty issues I dreaded speaking with them. Mostly because I didn't want to say something that would be misinterpreted .
For example, many people are not engineers yet have some technical background and aptitude. Not to say all engineers do, and there are definitely terrible engineers out there. However that incomplete knowledge with an incomplete set of facts can lead to a false conclusion. I mean this forum is the perfect example of the conjecture humans come up with.
Anyway it doesn't excuse the poor communication. Even though engineers are stereotypically bad communicators it doesn't give them an excuse. Just saying I might care less about the communication if these guys are the brilliant quite type. If they aren't, gosh darn it I'm going to make my own vape. Mark my words. Something I've thought about but because of the negative stigma, now evaporating, I was afraid.
I just think some folks need to calm down. Remind yourself this is a pre-order/kick starter device right now. Normally at work, I design new products, we do field tests with trusted customers. For a year, or more. Making modifications as they use and abuse the equipment. We are those first customers testing this thing is my impression. Though for my work we give the test units away for free....
Just some random thoughts.
For example, many people are not engineers yet have some technical background and aptitude. Not to say all engineers do, and there are definitely terrible engineers out there. However that incomplete knowledge with an incomplete set of facts can lead to a false conclusion. I mean this forum is the perfect example of the conjecture humans come up with.
Anyway it doesn't excuse the poor communication. Even though engineers are stereotypically bad communicators it doesn't give them an excuse. Just saying I might care less about the communication if these guys are the brilliant quite type. If they aren't, gosh darn it I'm going to make my own vape. Mark my words. Something I've thought about but because of the negative stigma, now evaporating, I was afraid.
I just think some folks need to calm down. Remind yourself this is a pre-order/kick starter device right now. Normally at work, I design new products, we do field tests with trusted customers. For a year, or more. Making modifications as they use and abuse the equipment. We are those first customers testing this thing is my impression. Though for my work we give the test units away for free....
Just some random thoughts.
Mr. Me2
Well-Known Member
Reminds me of the Bob's interviewing the staff in Office Space...
Mr. Me2
Well-Known Member
And Happy 1000 Messages to You!..."I see you've been missing a lot of work lately, Peter"
..."Can't say I've been missing it, Bob"
Love that movie...
lwien
Well-Known Member
Which is exactly why you hire a strong marketing/communicator so that the engineers don't have to concern themselves with something that they are not good at but rather focus their energies on what they ARE good at.
This SHOULD have been in their budget/business plan. Hell, this is such an important aspect of any business, that it would have been worth it to give that person a piece of the pie in lieu of a high salary, eh? More compensation on the back end when they can afford it rather than incurring the costs out front. Makes perfect sense to me.
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zymos
Well-Known Member
I've done a bit of crowd funding, and there is nothing inherent to it that backers are necessarily going to be beta testers.
I have one device where the software used with it is still in beta after a year, but it's entirely functional and bug free, they just haven't added all the features to it they've planned on.
I've looked at (but not joined) many campaigns that have had levels that were explicitly titled beta- you reveive yours before regular backers. If you go that way, you are literally a beta tester- lots of people like to do that, but they DECIDE to that.
IMO, using your backers as beta testers against their will is not cool. I don't feel like, as backers, we have much right to complain that things are taking too long- that's the nature of the game. But we sure as hell have the right to complain about getting malfunctioning and even dangerous devices.
(Just to be straight in the terminology, "pre-orders" are not "backers", they are essentially like any other purchaser of anything, but paid in advance to reserve a spot. But none of those have shipped yet, and probably won't for quite a while)
I have one device where the software used with it is still in beta after a year, but it's entirely functional and bug free, they just haven't added all the features to it they've planned on.
I've looked at (but not joined) many campaigns that have had levels that were explicitly titled beta- you reveive yours before regular backers. If you go that way, you are literally a beta tester- lots of people like to do that, but they DECIDE to that.
IMO, using your backers as beta testers against their will is not cool. I don't feel like, as backers, we have much right to complain that things are taking too long- that's the nature of the game. But we sure as hell have the right to complain about getting malfunctioning and even dangerous devices.
(Just to be straight in the terminology, "pre-orders" are not "backers", they are essentially like any other purchaser of anything, but paid in advance to reserve a spot. But none of those have shipped yet, and probably won't for quite a while)
nonbeliever
Well-Known Member
It's pretty clear they are technology guys (engineers, hacks, name your poison). Trevor is learning the pain of being the CEO of a manufacturing entity. Their aero consulting and experience seems to be building one off, custom or semi-custom type devices. They clearly know how to produce the one unit - the challenge seem to be that they didn't really understand mass production challenges or processes - and are getting a lesson of Just In time (perhaps a bit late even) learning, and maybe with a little bit of stretched finances included. I am surprised at their lack of responsiveness - at least/especially to problems - (I had reached out about the shipping confirmation, but never received a response).
In looking at the device, there are only a few assembly points:
- the backend/clicker - I don't know how much they assemble versus comes assembled - we know they push the pen clip on - I don't think we know if the problems with over heating are from manufacturing or assembly.
- the IC/heater/chamber assembly - I suspect assembling these is more tedious than they originally envisioned - or requires a little bit of dexterous skillsets? Also, it looks like the IC assembly is pressure driven into the unit body - maybe the point where body flaw damage like @HillaryClinton saw occur?
- screwing everything together - maybe the backend screw in process is mechanized - and is just driving and jamming up creating new threads? I can't fathom how you could manually screw it in and jam it up any other way.
I think we are simply living through the cycle of a start up. The good news is if they get through launching these units through their pre-ordered list - they'll probably have crossed that chasm and will be a real. viable company (or acquisition target). We'll see what the next few weeks and months brings I suppose (still waiting on my TI unit).
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zymos
Well-Known Member
Because we (meaning some people) were suspicious and unwelcoming.
mitchgo61
I go where the thrills are
Many, if not most, of the successful vape companies (Pax, Arizer, SB, FF) did just that.....designed, produced, tested, marketed and sold really high quality vapes. All without consulting the masses. Or whatever we call ourselves.
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Mister G
Deceptively Old Fart
HillaryClinton
Future ruler of earth
zymos
Well-Known Member
GHL "it'll have a three hour battery life"
FC- "bullshit!"
Note, this was only a historical reenactment, not an exact quote.
kingfisher
Well-Known Member
Can you speak more to their past experience? I'm just curious..
Maybe they truly have little manufacturing experience. Yet any engineer who has worked in product design should have dfma, design for manufacturability and assembly, down.
grokit
well-worn member
And this is why they couldn't have trained their assembly personnel in advance; they are just now learning "on the job" how to best assemble grasshoppers. They can't train others until they figure this out first.
OF
Well-Known Member
Still 'sitting on my wallet'. Good luck with yours.......I'll hold your coat.
Always possible, a solid QA program can fix that even at this late date. Hopefully.
I agree, and have said so a time or two along the way. This has not been a traditional effort, starting with advertising features that never could be. Perhaps the nature of such things. Missing are the traditional design/review/redesign processes leading to a 'pilot run' set of Beta test units made to spec in a production environment and 'beat up' as you suggest 'by family'. Usually the testing is held confidential under NDA.
I think this traditional model could (and should?) have been followed. Funding source really didn't dictate things at that level. It's a traditional approach, I think, for many of the exact things we see right now? Companies have and will no doubt continue to survive such setbacks, and would still be ahead of the competition (a common reason given for not taking the 'in between steps' and rushing into production half cocked), but not all.
Many, if not most, of the successful vape companies (Pax, Arizer, SB, FF) did just that.....designed, tested, produced, marketed and sold really high quality vapes. All without consulting the masses. Or whatever we call ourselves.
Yes, I agree. They followed the traditional model, kept it close to the chest, verified and reverified, put in place the framework to control inventory and handle failures, did confidential Beta Testing, then offered them for sales. They identified and fixed most of their issues before hand, were ready of more problems that might happen to customers then started asking for money for their new wonder. The way I was taught by companies that bought up cheap would be competitors that didn't.
These guys (GH) seem dedicated and plenty sharp. I think they've got a fair chance of sorting this all out, but I bet the'd do it different next time?
OF
The backers aren't beta testers. That's just a popular misapplication of the term that people use to describe a product that they feel hasn't been properly tested. Beta testing is done in a controlled manner else it's useless. Beta testers are obliged to abuse the product as well as use it, and report accurately exactly what they did and what the outcome was. Based on the lessons of beta-testing, a developer is prepared to modify the product prior to release. None of this applies to backers. Releasing a product that hasn't been fully tested does not make your customers beta testers, it makes them angry.
fonzerelli
Well-Known Member
Sadly, that is not the way things are done anymore.
Companies are under so much pressure to get products out quickly, users are often called upon to be testers.
It's annoying. Being an early adopter is usually just not worth it anymore.
zymos
Well-Known Member
I'm also talking about campaigns where the level people pledge to is explicitly to be a beta tester. If you are raising money for a $400 device ( as an example), you might not be able to afford putting together a team, since they'll all need the hardware as well as software. People know they are getting software in an unfinished state, and want to the chance to contribute to its development. And of course get to use the product earlier than almost everyone else. Maybe this isn't how you think a beta should be run, a lot of crowdfunding is done this way.
The GH wasn't one of these though. Or not with people's awareness and consent anyway.
Fonzarelli, plenty of developers still do that. I've tested several iOS apps and a few VSTs. Some with nightly builds. On the software side, most developers seem to want to get it right before releasing to the public. With hardware, it's not so easy, since each copy costs $$. And you can't make fixes and instantly distribute them for free...
The GH wasn't one of these though. Or not with people's awareness and consent anyway.
Fonzarelli, plenty of developers still do that. I've tested several iOS apps and a few VSTs. Some with nightly builds. On the software side, most developers seem to want to get it right before releasing to the public. With hardware, it's not so easy, since each copy costs $$. And you can't make fixes and instantly distribute them for free...
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