WTF Is Wrong With America And Gun Control?

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nihil

Member, Known Well
My post was an honest one and my facts legitimate.

I wanted to let you know that I really appreciated this comment. Reviewing my post, I did come across a little harsh, and for that I apologize.

And yes, youth has a different understanding of consequences than say anyone over the age of 25. It's one of the reasons that you have to be 21+ to purchase a handgun in the States. But as I stated earlier, with the proper education, I'm not worried about most mature people owning firearms.

Lastly, I tend to do my part when I can, and I notice others doing the same. I went out shooting with 3 people last summer, one was ex military, the other two kind of new to the scene. On the way to the range (woods actually), I gave my typical gun safety talk to anyone that was going to use one of my guns, or that I was going to shoot with. I had just met the ex military guy. Once we get set up, I notice that he is directing all of the conversation to me.. in his own way, he was making sure the 2 new guys knew what they were doing before we loaded a single round. It was very cool watching him act out this simple tactic, and it worked. The new guys followed all of the rules to a "t" and walked away with a full understanding of gun safety.
 
At times I find it is often better to let Americans argue amongst themselves over issues like this.

I see no reason for an individual to own a gun. It works in other countries. Our (Australian) kids don't go to school and commit atrocities.

I also find it intriguing that Americans have such pride in your forefathers. I see Australia's version as antiquated, genocidal, homicidal, ignorant bastards and would never imagine trying to make sense of anything they said or did.
 

Joel W.

Deplorable Basement Dweller
Accessory Maker
Our (Australian) kids don't go to school and commit atrocities.
. Australia used to until you banned guns in 98'. Now there have been zero school shootings in the last 16 years. That is a pretty compelling argument right there!

I find if funny people think these topic are circular and pointless but here I sit thinking I am on the wrong side of the issue again. Lol.
 
Joel W.,
While gun laws were changed after a massacre that took place in Tasmania I don't think the situation was comparable to that of the United States at all. Criminals still have guns without doubt but farmers or hunters are not able to own guns as they were in the past. Handguns are pretty rare. I think sawn-off shotguns were and still are the most commonly used gun by criminals. I dont think Australians have ever felt they have the right to bear arms as Americans do. Anyway, what would I know. I dont want to offend anyone as it is obviously a touchy subject.
 
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lwien

Well-Known Member
I also find it intriguing that Americans have such pride in your forefathers.

We've had a few idiot slave owning forefathers ourselves.

But yeah, the American psyche is kinda fucked up in that for the most part, we look at our forefathers as deities and the Constitution as a document handed down from God.

I dont want to offend anyone as it is obviously a touchy subject.

Me too. I hate offending anyone.... :ninja:...........
bolt.gif
 

howie105

Well-Known Member
Americans are manipulated via the laws, culture, money, media, etc. Part of that manipulation package is fear, take a look at any hot button issue and see how many people are latching onto them to promote their own agenda. Its really apparent during this point in the national election cycle. Sadly fear being such a good tool there is often little real interest in resolving some problems. The sad part is that if everybody was willing to work on the problem together and actually meet somewhere in the middle the gun thing could be over and then we could move onto poverty, health care, the environment and that little decade and a half long war we have are bleeding out over. However we aren’t are we.
 

lwien

Well-Known Member
Americans are manipulated via the laws, culture, money, media, etc. Part of that manipulation package is fear, take a look at any hot button issue and see how many people are latching onto them to promote their own agenda.

So...........so true except I would say that fear was "part of the package". I'd say that it's the whole package and you are also correct how apparent this becomes in the primaries.

The latest one is over immigration and it's not just Trump for they are all bringing up the killing of innocents by a few illegal immigrants. They are even parading the parents of the TWO that were killed, putting them in front of TV cameras and bringing them on as guest speakers at their speaking engagements, implying that we should hide all of our kids because the majority of immigrants crossing our boarders are killers. Talk about exploitation.

What gets me is that there are people that actually fall for this bullshit.
 

Kief

Medicated
You're saying the government shouldn't be more restrictive with handguns, or require more education and licensing - but, they should regulate parenting instead?
Yep. :tup: I do live in California though, where there is already more gun restrictions than most other states.
And on the whole "guns don't kill people..." rap.... When was the last time someone was killed by a gun that a person didn't shoot (or fumble I guess)? I don't know what it's like where you are, but we don't see guns out walking around on their own in my parts. Nor have I ever heard of one jumping up and firing by itself.
Exactly, a gun is just a tool... a dangerous one, but just a tool.
Parenting in America is a lost art that is not respected anymore.
Amen!
 

flotntoke

thoroughly vaped
Yep. :tup: I do live in California though, where there is already more gun restrictions than most other states.

Exactly, a gun is just a tool... a dangerous one, but just a tool.

Amen!

And, herein lies the rub. A gun is a tool. It's a tool for killing. Not a potentially dangerous tool if used carelessly that is designed to do something else, like a circular saw (or so many others). Not a "tool" like a car that nearly everyone uses and as intended, that has a propensity for a deadly accident (especially if you're not handling it properly). But a gun is a tool designed to kill. Handguns specifically to kill other humans, while having it handy at all times or concealed (or both). Does anyone think it is a coincidence that the largest percentage of deaths by murder in this country are dealt by handguns? They are the tool designed for the job! This also makes them the most commonly used weapon, er uh... tool, in other crimes from rapes to robberies to you name it.

So, I don't really buy into the "it's just a tool" anymore than I do "guns don't kill people, people do". If someone was running around killing people with hammers, or circular saws or even intentionally with cars, I think this may hold a bit more water. But, that isn't the case! Approximately 30,000 people die from gunshots in the US EVERY year. Now I'll grant you, that's a pretty small percentage of all the people that die every year, and the majority of those are suicides.

But, as far as intentionally killing someone? At least 2/3 of the people killed every year die by gunshot wound - and more than half are killed specifically by handguns. And, even with the slightly tougher gun restrictions in CA, almost 70% (by year) are killed by guns - almost all intentionally, and mostly with... you guessed it, handguns.

Gun laws need to be tightened up, specifically handgun laws. And, the NRA needs to be knocked back a bit or cut from the lobbying efforts they maintain across the country. They use their deep pockets, mostly funded by gun manufacturers and large scale dealers, to destroy even the most common sense measures in the name of "freedom". One thing I've never heard them comment on is my freedom, or anyone else's, to not be shot by a handgun! According to them, my freedom to own a gun should protect me. Because I can go buy one and shoot back. I mean c'mon man, that's just sick!

But, still not as far fetched as suggesting the government should regulate parenting instead of guns, or that the solution to our gun problems lies there.
 
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Amoreena

Grown up Flower Child
... If someone was running around killing people with hammers, or circular saws or even intentionally with cars, I think this may hold a bit more water. But, that isn't the case! ...
Yes, it is. People do kill with hammers, circular saws and cars.
 
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flotntoke

thoroughly vaped
Yes, it is. People do kill with hammers, circular saws and cars.


But very rarely, and even rarer intentionally. And, they're not using any of those things (or many others) as they were designed and intended to be used. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I think that puts guns - especially handguns - in a totally separate category. They are designed solely to kill people! What else fits into that same niche?
 
flotntoke,

Amoreena

Grown up Flower Child
@flotntoke
A myriad of things can be and have been used to kill. I regard hand guns as tools for defense against those who use them or other items offensively. All killing (including hunting and excluding humane euthanasia) is repugnant to me but there isn't a damned thing I can do to change human nature.
 

HellsWindStaff

Dharma Initiate
So, I don't really buy into the "it's just a tool" anymore than I do "guns don't kill people, people do".

I'm curious about this and I think this is maybe a fundamental point in the way both parties are thinking about the issue.

You say a gun is a "tool for killing."

I don't own a gun, and I don't see it that way at all. The definition of a handgun is a portable firearm for self defense, target shooting, or hunting. Where is it meant for killing others? Not trying to be disrespectful, but that's a definition that fits an anti-gun agenda, and isn't accurate. You CAN use them to kill people, yeah. But you can also buy them for any other legitimate reason I mentioned. And the only people whose "purpose" when buying a handgun is to kill someone, are going to find a way to kill someone regardless no? I don't think normal people buy handguns for that reasoning, I think they buy them for the aforementioned reasoning. A hobby. Target practice. Small game. Self Defense.

Does the responsibility not lie in the user? Should we regulate guns so that bad people shouldn't have them, absolutely. The goal should be to keep gun's out of unsavory and unstable people. Not convince people that gun's are "bad." Because, when are we going to take responsibility? You even said yourself:

"And on the whole "guns don't kill people..." rap.... When was the last time someone was killed by a gun that a person didn't shoot (or fumble I guess)? I don't know what it's like where you are, but we don't see guns out walking around on their own in my parts. Nor have I ever heard of one jumping up and firing by itself."

Exactly. The tool doesn't do anything the user doesn't want it too. The gun isn't lifting off the table like magic and killing someone. Someone is making a conscious decision to end someone else's life, or maybe a reactionary decision or maybe an accidental circumstance (your decision to be in that position though), but it's still the person who pulled the trigger whose at fault, not the trigger.

I hope this doesn't seem like I'm coming at you specifically and I hope I was able to voice my somewhat counter opinion on the matter respectfully, as I do value all opinions. Simply trying to understand your PoV, hopefully I was able to explain my own.
 

grokit

well-worn member
Enforce existing laws and close the loopholes, and this debate wouldn't be such a big deal. Any government can turn tyrannical in a heartbeat, and that's what the 2nd amendment is there for (it's not for hunters).
 

flotntoke

thoroughly vaped
I'm curious about this and I think this is maybe a fundamental point in the way both parties are thinking about the issue.

You say a gun is a "tool for killing."

I don't own a gun, and I don't see it that way at all. The definition of a handgun is a portable firearm for self defense, target shooting, or hunting. Where is it meant for killing others? Not trying to be disrespectful, but that's a definition that fits an anti-gun agenda, and isn't accurate. You CAN use them to kill people, yeah. But you can also buy them for any other legitimate reason I mentioned. And the only people whose "purpose" when buying a handgun is to kill someone, are going to find a way to kill someone regardless no? I don't think normal people buy handguns for that reasoning, I think they buy them for the aforementioned reasoning. A hobby. Target practice. Small game. Self Defense.

Does the responsibility not lie in the user? Should we regulate guns so that bad people shouldn't have them, absolutely. The goal should be to keep gun's out of unsavory and unstable people. Not convince people that gun's are "bad." Because, when are we going to take responsibility? You even said yourself:



Exactly. The tool doesn't do anything the user doesn't want it too. The gun isn't lifting off the table like magic and killing someone. Someone is making a conscious decision to end someone else's life, or maybe a reactionary decision or maybe an accidental circumstance (your decision to be in that position though), but it's still the person who pulled the trigger whose at fault, not the trigger.

I hope this doesn't seem like I'm coming at you specifically and I hope I was able to voice my somewhat counter opinion on the matter respectfully, as I do value all opinions. Simply trying to understand your PoV, hopefully I was able to explain my own.

No offense taken at all. I get you with target practice, and maybe the target practice on small game. Pistols aren't very effective if you're trying to hit something small and moving. Fun? Yes! But if you're trying to bag dinner, you're probably going to be hungry. And while all of the handguns (sold legally and illegally in the US) can also be used for targets, they are designed to kill or at least very seriously injure. Stopping power and number of rounds are the usual selling points. Neither matter much when they are going through a paper target.

Other typical small arms (rifles, shotguns) are designed to kill also (and are much more effective for hunting). In most of my discussion here, I've been speaking primarily about hundguns, though maybe I haven't made that clear throughout. The vast majority of people who are killed by guns are shot with handguns. The vast majority of other armed crimes committed are with handguns. You do look kind of obvious carrying around a rifle or a shotgun, so it's hard for them to be useful if you're not legal - and everybody usually sees it coming even if you are.

The issue, or at least my biggest gripe, is that handgun regulation is as lax as it is in the face of this. There are many things I think can and should be done, that aren't. I think I've brought up the two biggest ones IMO above, but maybe not very clearly. People who shouldn't legally be able to buy a handgun shouldn't be able to get around the system as easily as they often do, and gun runners (straw purchasers) shouldn't be allowed to continue.

The recent shooting in Charleston was done with a handgun that was purchased in a gun shop by the shooter. Because of his record, he should not have been able to buy a gun. Currently, a background check must be completed for anyone purchasing a handgun. If the background check isn't completed in 3 business days (Federal, some states longer), the dealer may sell the gun. In this case, there was confusion about cities/towns with the same name in different sates during the background check, so it was not discovered that the shooter couldn't buy the gun. A couple more days probably would have been enough time to sort this out. But, after the 3 days he was able to complete his purchase, and take that weapon on his killing spree. There was definitely a breakdown in the system here, but from what I have heard this is not too unusual. I know someone who buys guns about once a year or so, who has felony charges deep in his past from half way across the country and a fairly common first and last name. I'm personally not worried about him, but it is always interesting when he goes and gets a new one. Something needs to be done to correct this! Any efforts to do so are immediately fought hard against by the NRA.

People can go to larger gun shops and legally purchase several handguns at the same time (with 3 day background check). They can easily carry them an hour away or less and resell them to those who can't legally buy a gun for twice - often more - the price they just paid. Very lucrative! According to US ATF about half of the guns collected that are used in crimes were initially purchased legally by straw purchasers. Sometimes they are contracted (I'll pay you to go buy this gun for me), but seems more often than not they are acquired as above (someone buys several and sells them to another reseller or directly to those who want them). In some of these cases, when the gun turns up in a crime and is able to be tracked back to the initial straw purchaser (not often because it is a good idea to remove serial numbers!), they claim the gun was stolen a couple months ago - or something similar.

There are things that can be done to minimize both of these problems (and others), but they are fought tooth and nail by the NRA with claims of "taking away our freedom", "these things are just a way to document our guns so the government can take them whenever they're ready" and other similar arguments.

The NRA even uses its money and power to battle with local municipalities who try to put laws in place to help mitigate these issues. I know of one state where municipalities were starting to do things like require that stolen guns be reported to police within a week of them being discovered missing. Just one example of several similar measures passed to help with slowing straw puchasers and other similar issues. It was dicey for them, because the NRA could go after them legally if they could find a party that was wronged by this. Essentially, if I lived in the municipality that passed a law like this, I could sue the municipality for infringing on my constitutional rights and the NRA could join me with their money and legal heft. Certainly nothing a town of 5,000 - 10,000 people could compete with from a legal/financial perspective. So, it took quite a bit to get everyone on board that was required to vote on such laws (mayor, councilpeople, whoever), but many municipalities did. And no lawsuits came up, because try as they may the NRA couldn't find people to initiate suits. There was one, but the guy backed out before the ball got rolling too far. Think that says something very good not only about local governments - but about the vast majority of gun owners (legal owners anyway). So, what did the NRA do instead? They lobbied the state legislature and did a full court press publicly to have the laws changed. They were successful within about a year. Now, the NRA doesn't need an interested/affected party to file a suit. They can file suit against any municipality they wish as an interested party fighting for the rights of all. But, as they knew all along if they got this through, they won't have to file any suits. The municipalities all repealed such laws because they don't want to, and can't afford to get into multi million dollar lawsuits with an entity as powerful as the NRA.

Sorry it takes so long to explain, but this is only one of many things that occur everyday that most don't follow or aren't aware of. Those of us who pay attention politically to such things, and those that get their quarterly NRA newsletter and frequent emails are aware, but you already know where all of us stand on such things.

WTF? My gun control is still quite good, generally I still hit what I aim at so I would say the gun control problem in america today is primarily that most gun owners don't get enough practice.

:wave:

Hope you mean legal gun owners. And, how much they practice compared to how bad ass they think they would be if they had to click the safety off in a tight situation is a whole nother issue! Just another reason I think a shotgun is better for home protection. Aiming is more of a general area kind of thing than trying to get a tight shot group while half asleep in the dark.

However, I do kind of wish the illegal gun owners would practice a bit more. Guess it is hard when you're not supposed to have a gun, don't have a place for target practice and all that noise if you did is bound to get some attention. Think they are most likely to spray bullets somewhere other than the range. But, if they practiced they may be less likely to hit so many innocent bystanders, or feel the need to fire 7 or 8 rounds - and often miss the target anyway!
 
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HellsWindStaff

Dharma Initiate
Very thoughtful and well written stuff.

People who shouldn't legally be able to buy a handgun shouldn't be able to get around the system as easily as they often do, and gun runners (straw purchasers) shouldn't be allowed to continue.

Well said, and couldn't agree better. Keep the guns out of the hands of people who mentally or legally cannot handle the responsibility.

IMO regarding the NRA, they are just as off base as the people who think all guns are evil.

@grokit over/under on which happens first, the government closing loopholes, or hell freezing over? :lol:
 

flotntoke

thoroughly vaped
Very thoughtful and well written stuff.



Well said, and couldn't agree better. Keep the guns out of the hands of people who mentally or legally cannot handle the responsibility.

IMO regarding the NRA, they are just as off base as the people who think all guns are evil.

@grokit over/under on which happens first, the government closing loopholes, or hell freezing over? :lol:

Hope you don't consider me in the group that considers all guns evil. Guess it may come across this way because I am fervently emotional about this issue. But, that's not the case. I have guns and enjoy shooting them as well as those of friends (handguns included). Some of those friends agree with me entirely on my positions to have much tighter restrictions on handguns, others are on the opposite side of the issue.

I'm often pleasantly surprised to find people's views on this in the rural area I live in. About half of the gun owners I know well enough to speak with about such things wholeheartedly agree with most of what I have discussed here, even if not all to the level I believe things need to be done (tho I haven't gone that far in my discussions here).

I think this is part of the problem. As with many issues, there aren't black and white solutions - they tend to be more shades of gray. But, shades of gray take more research and thought and I don't think most people want to be bothered with that. They'd rather pick black or white and emotionally fight to the death for it. There's little forward movement when things get to that point. This is one of the major reasons why the NRA consistently uses the tactics they do, and some (but not most) gun regulation groups do the same.

Well, I guess the NRA has other reasons, too. The organization has come to be largely run by gun manufacturers and dealers who have profits in the mix. They have enjoyed extremely good business growth for the past few years in large part by fearmongering about Obama and Holder looking to take people's guns away. In truth, the Fed government has done little if anything, and IMO Obama has been rather silent on the issue except in response to mass killings. That does seem to be changing as he gets deeper into his lame duck session. Back to my point here... Gun manufacturers and large scale dealers have made a fortune on the fear they've pushed - regardless of the truth. There have been a few times (usually right around Obama's elections) when you couldn't even buy ammo because they couldn't produce and distribute it fast enough. Same with weapons! Who wins here? The NRA members? No! The same board members and executives who are involved with companies that see record profits and can increase prices on weapons and ammo quickly and still sell out their stock in record time. IMO, praying on fears of lost rights, fleecing those who are on "your side" and agree with you on the issue, while at the same time making everyone less safe is despicable.

Kind of irresponsible for me to post about people choosing black or white on this issue without including somewhere that someone could easily look at more of the information themselves. So, here you go....

The NRA legislative page

Issues page from Mayors Against Illegal Guns (an organization for more regulation I casually follow)
 

nihil

Member, Known Well
@flotntoke Good posts as always. I'm curious about the 3 day wait in S.C.. In my state a background check takes no longer than 10 minutes. Seems silly that it is a federal program, but it takes longer in some states.

Regarding Obama, he did pass an Executive Order last year against Russia due to the situation in the Ukraine. This effectively banned Russian manufactured firearms from entering the country. Too bad to, because Russian AKM's are very high quality compared to some of the other EU/Egyptian manufacturers.

Also, Colt recently filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.. a lot of the manufacturers over produced due to the Sandy Hook shooting. People that have been in the game a while waited it out and then got some pretty good deals when the manufacturers had to unload that inventory. This also happened in 07/08 when Obama was elected and I got in on some very good deals at the end of 09.

Regarding the handgun statistics and the majority being suicides, that may be a good thing in a very morbid way. I'm not trying to sound callous, but I've had the unfortunate luck to know many a people that went on to commit suicide.. and it tends to run in my family. Only 1 was by handgun, the rest were hanging, ODs, CO2 poisoning, ect.. I personally feel the handgun suicide was the least painful.

The problem with suicidal people, is that some of them tend to be motivated. Yes, if the gun wasn't around they might not have done it, but they will usually find a way. After reading the details on Robin Williams, I wished that man had a gun.. and yes, I know that sounds horrible.
 
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flotntoke

thoroughly vaped
@flotntoke Good posts as always. I'm curious about the 3 day wait in S.C.. In my state a background check takes no longer than 10 minutes. Seems silly that it is a federal program, but it takes longer in some states.

Regarding Obama, he did pass an Executive Order last year against Russia due to the situation in the Ukraine. This effectively banned Russian manufactured firearms from entering the country. Too bad to, because Russian AKM's are very high quality compared to some of the other EU/Egyptian manufacturers.

Also, Colt recently filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.. a lot of the manufacturers over produced due to the Sandy Hook shooting. People that have been in the game a while waited it out and then got some pretty good deals when the manufacturers had to unload that inventory. This also happened in 07/08 when Obama was elected and I got in on some very good deals at the end of 09.

Regarding the handgun statistics and the majority being suicides, that may be a good thing in a very morbid way. I'm not trying to sound callous, but I've had the unfortunate luck to know many a people that went on to commit suicide.. and it tends to run in my family. Only 1 was by handgun, the rest were hanging, ODs, CO2 poisoning, ect.. I personally feel the handgun suicide was the least painful.

The problem with suicidal people, is that some of them tend to be motivated. Yes, if the gun wasn't around they might not have done it, but they will usually find a way. After reading the details on Robin Williams, I wished that man had a gun.. and yes, I know that sounds horrible.

Thanks for the clarifications @nihil . Some of what you mention about my posts above is over-simplification, and some - admittedly - is generalization.

The 3 day "waiting period" isn't really a waiting period. The way it works is the FBI has up to 3 business days to complete the background check. It could be completed in minutes. Especially if you buy guns regularly and frequently. From what I understand (from people who have a bunch of guns and buy new a couple times a year, not from gun control side), if you are already cleared in their system they just do a quick check on you. The guy I mentioned above (who isn't even really legal!), usually goes into a cool little gun shop around here, picks his new gun, goes to get some lunch and run errands, and is able to pick it up when he gets back an hour or two later. From what I've heard, this is something straw purchasers are pleased as punch about! Some states have longer restrictions (though I think CA's 10 cool off period was thrown out by Federal Court) that actually are waiting periods, but this has failed to be passed at the national level for years.

There's a whole different part of this I've not included for the sake of brevity (yeah I know, but trying to keep it as short and simple as I can!). Gun sales between individuals or at most gun shows require no background check, and often are exempt from state mandated waiting periods. But, this is another can of worms with this issue I'd rather not open up now so I don't have to type so much, and more may be likely to read through my lengthy posts in this thread.

On the Russian manufactured guns... yes Obama did put sanctions on them along with doing a few other things last year in what IIRC was his second or third round against Russia in response to the Ukraine incursion. I've heard much ballyhoo about this being him showing his true "gun illegalizing" colors from local gun nuts (not to be confused with most gun owners), but there is a good bit more to it than that. When I was looking this up last fall to respond to some of these folks, I found it very interesting that there was little comment about this from the NRA - though a ton of crap on many conservative blogs. Wasn't really too surprised! See my comments above about NRA execs and board members who have close ties, or are themselves, part of the US gun industry. Am sure many of them think this is the greatest thing he's done in his presidency. Well... other than get elected which allowed for more fear-mongering than they ever dreamed possible.

Colt was destined to fall and anyone should have seen it coming. Their weapons have fallen out of vogue with most private gun owners for some time, and their lucrative US military contracts have been shrinking for years. I think they have also had troubles because they haven't kept up with many of the recent manufacturing changes other companies have. But, the fact remains that most US manufacturers have seen steady solid growth in sales and profits over the past few years.

On the suicide thing, I totally get what you are saying. And, honestly appreciate the somewhat twisted viewpoint. I try not to delve too far into that part of my personality in a public forum such as this, though. And, much more fun with a small group of likewise sick friends anyway. But, I think handguns are still the method used in more than half of them. Many of these people may have still committed suicide, but I have a feeling not all - or even most. Keep in mind that most of these people don't go get a gun to shoot themselves. They already have a gun. Don't want to go too far down this dark path, but imagine being depressed and suicidal and knowing the instant way to actually do it is sitting right there in the drawer next to you. I think it is safe to say at least a few of these people wouldn't follow through if that weren't the case.

I'd have to go look up the stats (and will if you like), but IIRC owning a gun - legally that is - increases the possibility of suicide in your household by 300% - 400% - be that yourself, your wife or your kid. A little more scary when you look at it in this direction IMO.
 

Frederick McGuire

Aggressively Loungey
I...
I want to contribute but this thread just makes me sad... :(

As an Aussie, it baffles me that the general outlook in the US essentially seems to be that gun crime is fine...
Not that it's fine directly, but that you must have ABSOLUTE FREEDOM and any consequences of that are what they are...

You need less guns.
Seriously.

Fix that goddamned problem then figure out how to do things responsibly.

I honestly don't see how you guys can fix anything when you just keep pumping more and more and more and more guns into the picture...

Like on every scale, you've got the biggest military spending of any country on the planet, more than the next top 10 combined countries, of whom 9 are your allies (that stat is a few years old now but I assume it holds up pretty well...)
You've got some of the most over militarized police forces I can think of, and
More guns per capita than just about anywhere...

As a general philosophical position I'm pretty down with the FREEDOM!!! 'MURICA!!!
Attitude that anyone should be able to do any thing so long as it doesn't encroach on anyone else doing any thing...

But look at all the damn gun crime, that's a pretty clear identifier that a lot of people are being irresponsible dicks with These things, so maybe everyone is gonna have to get together, act responsibly, and maybe calm it down with the friggin guns for a bit.

When the problem is "criminals have guns" the answer isn't "so give everyone else a gun" it's "GET THE FUCKING GUNS AWAY FROM THE FUCKING CRIMINALS"

I'm gonna stop now before this becomes full-rant...
:shrug:
:2c:
:peace:
 

Jared

Cannabis Enthusiast
I could write an essay on why I think every SANE (and competent) American should own a gun but because people who are anti gun usually aren't going to change their minds no matter how many facts you shove down their throats I'll just leave you anti gun guys with this picture. (This will be my only post in this thread because I know myself and I know I will not be able to remain civil debating this topic.)

@Frederick McGuire This picture shows more than just Hitler, and his other beliefs are irrelevant to the topic at hand. All of the leaders in this picture turned on their citizens after confiscating their guns. That's the only point I'm making and this will be the last thing I type here.

OxPI2Kk.jpg
 
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Frederick McGuire

Aggressively Loungey
Hitler was anti smoking and vegetarian too...

If you legitimately want to discuss the potential for tyrants to take over your country and you think people need guns to stop that, then discuss it rationally...

All that picture does is enflame the discussion...
I'd hardly consider it an attempt at rational/civil discussion when you literally come in and say others won't listen to facts and liken them to hitter...

I'd much rather hear a reasoned position I disagree with than a hyperbolic picture that adds nothing to the discussion...
 
Frederick McGuire,
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flotntoke

thoroughly vaped
LMFAO and I'm hardly awake - and very un-vaped.

... As with many issues, there aren't black and white solutions - they tend to be more shades of gray. But, shades of gray take more research and thought and I don't think most people want to be bothered with that. They'd rather pick black or white and emotionally fight to the death for it. There's little forward movement when things get to that point...

Would be hard to paint a picture any more black and white than @Jared 's above. You certainly don't have to look far - or wait too long - to see why we're in the mess we are now.

All of that aside, who is talking about confiscating guns? I think the rest of the post speaks for itself enough that it doesn't even warrant comment. I would love to see that essay though, complete with the plan on how to arm those who can't afford one.

Great points @Frederick McGuire ! Thanks for adding an objective view from outside of this crazy gun bubble we live in in the US - or is that a gun-crazy bubble? Both?
 
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