Does a patient need to "get high" to be helped by Cannabis?

pigfoot

Dabs are vapor too!
An elderly friend has been diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. The prescription meds make her physically sick. I have heard of Cannabis's benefits for many illnesses, but a friend mentioned it can help with Alzheimer's. I did some research, and it looks very positive. My friend has some COPD, so smoking or vaping is not the first choice. I have access to edibles, so we decided to try that. I started her on a low dose to make sure she wasn't overwhelmed. We have been increasing her dose, but she has yet to feel any effects. I know some people can't get high from edibles, but do they still get the benefits (pain reduction, etc.)? I would think so, but if some part of them is unable to process the medicine, is it possible they would receive none of the benefits?
 

h3rbalist

I used to do drugs. I still do, but I used to, too
An elderly friend has been diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. The prescription meds make her physically sick. I have heard of Cannabis's benefits for many illnesses, but a friend mentioned it can help with Alzheimer's. I did some research, and it looks very positive. My friend has some COPD, so smoking or vaping is not the first choice. I have access to edibles, so we decided to try that. I started her on a low dose to make sure she wasn't overwhelmed. We have been increasing her dose, but she has yet to feel any effects. I know some people can't get high from edibles, but do they still get the benefits (pain reduction, etc.)? I would think so, but if some part of them is unable to process the medicine, is it possible they would receive none of the benefits?

What kind of edible? caps/brownie/coconut oil? and what are the dosages?
Has your friend used before and know the effects of cannabis?

Sometimes I would have a couple of my cocopop cakes and think I couldn't really feel anything but would later 'somehow' lose 6 hours of my day.
 
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pigfoot

Dabs are vapor too!
What kind of edible? caps/brownie/coconut oil? and what are the dosages?
Has your friend used before and know the effects of cannabis?

Sometimes I would have a couple of my cocopop cakes and think I couldn't really feel anything but would later 'somehow' lose 6 hours of my day.

Well, they're homemade, but mass produced, so dosage unknown, as far as Mg. The producer recommended about a quarter of one, to get someone with a moderate tolerance high. I'm working her up to about an eighth of one at this point. They're caramels. I got her high once, maybe 30 years ago?
My only experience with edibles was long ago. I had quite a tolerance at the point but I got too high :o
So, I need to make sure that doesn't happen to her. No need to create a negative association. It is possible she is getting an effect but not feeling it.
 

Chezgreendream

First the flavor, then the buZzz settles in....
Im not sure if you mean the pain relieving or just some relief from her illness or reversing illness effect. I mean what does she say about it? As far as does she feel any different, apart from what could be associated as a "high" effect or how do you see her? Does it seem to be helping?
 
Chezgreendream,

pigfoot

Dabs are vapor too!
Yes, relief and or illness reversal. But again, some people can take edibles and not get high. I need to learn more about that. Would a person in that situation get benefit form their meds anyway? IE, does the mechanism that blocks the high in some people also block the medicine from helping them?
She has no perceived effects yet. Since there are no human studies, there's no info on dosage, or length of treatment before effects, etc. My goal is to increase dosage until she feels mildly high. That way, she is getting the max intake. Depending on her response, we can go up or down a bit.
 
pigfoot,

HomeFree

Well-Known Member
Sometimes I will attempt to dose edibles to bring me up to right before I get a noticeable head change for when I am stressed out or in pain or nauseated, etc at work. Definitely not enough to get high for sure. Usually around 1/2 the amount I would use for a very mild effect.

I agree with lwein though, probably depends. But I find it beneficial in small doses (like ~5-10 mg max THC with a moderate tolerance). Just not as good as going all the way. But sometimes I don't want a high at all, and sometimes I might need meds during the day. I need to stay on my toes. Once it's late and all my responsibilities are taken care of, I will vape till I am ready for bed.

Better to have a little for some symptoms than none at all IMO. Hope she feels better.
 

Chezgreendream

First the flavor, then the buZzz settles in....
I learned by taking 1/8s or an 1/8 the size of the palm of my hand, Whichever is smaller...

Ive had that pushing through thresholds moments where I get couchlocked and I launch into space and time.
 
Chezgreendream,

Neceros

Well-Known Member
The cannabidiol (CBD) is what helps relief the pains from neurological diseases like MS and Alzheimer's. However, THC and CBD have an entourage effect, meaning that they both work better and stronger when in the presence of each other.

It's perfectly okay to get high while medicating, but you don't have to!
 

pigfoot

Dabs are vapor too!
Right, but my question is: if the person is one of those who DOES NOT get high from edibles, will the active ingredients still provide their benefits.
 
pigfoot,

Neceros

Well-Known Member
Right, but my question is: if the person is one of those who DOES NOT get high from edibles, will the active ingredients still provide their benefits.
In my experiences, edibles are the most difficult to dose correctly. I stay away from them because I get nothing, or I'm way too stoned for too long. I don't know for sure, but I suspect if you don't get high you aren't getting much else, either.
 
Neceros,

fernand

Well-Known Member
I'm not buying the whole "high" concept. I wish we'd stop using that word, along with "marijuana" and "pot". It comes from past times when young people OD'D on cannabis as a form of entertainment. But most older people want to feel and function better, not get lost or stupefied.

We don't yet know enough about the dose-response curve on ANY of Cannabis' many many effects. But one of its benefits is what the LaGuardia Commission in the 1940s called a "sense of adequacy". Feeling better. Neurological improvements, although they can be dramatic, are uncertain in any particular case. So, you are right to be cautious. The last thing you want is defeating the mood improvement side to chase a neurological effect that may or may not happen. We know very little. The RSO camp says they're curing cancers, but with elephantine oral doses. People with tremors etc are using one or two puffs. Each patient is different, and as we age we generally become more sensitive to meds. The honest answer is you're going to have to figure it out.

But it's impossible unless you standardize the strain and the dosage. I would avoid uncalibrated edibles like the plague. In Calif we have e.g. Green Hornet sativa and indica gummies that are well calibrated. For a small elderly woman I'd try staying at 2-3 mg THC in Sativa in the morning for a week and observing before increasing. Also a balloon vape might be OK with her lungs, and more controllable. Best wishes for at least SOME success!
 
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lwien

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I'm not buying the whole "high" concept. I wish we'd stop using that word, along with "marijuana" and "pot". It comes from past times when young people OD'D on cannabis as a form of entertainment. But most older people want to feel and function better, not get lost or stupefied.

Man, for the record, I disagree with just about all of that.

For me, it matters not what you call it, be it pot, marijuana, weed, cannabis, etc etc etc. It is what it is, regardless what anyone calls it.

Also, for recreational users, getting "high" is the reason we partake in the first place. For some who use it to address other medical issues, getting high is the last thing they want but getting "high" is part and parcel of the whole MJ experience.........most of the time.

And in regards to OD'ing, not quite sure what you mean by that. If you mean "white knuckling" it on edibles because you took too much, well that is NOT a fun experience regardless if you're young or old or did it years ago or did it yesterday. I never knew anyone who really wanted to get to that state. Why would they? No one that I knew would ever call that..........."entertainment".

And in regards to "older people", I'm part of that group and I can honestly say for me, as well as for others, there are times when we just want to feel and function better but there are also times when we do want to get a bit lost (although, for us old fogies, getting lost isn't very hard to do anymore, in more ways than one...:uhoh:).

So.......I totally disagree that getting really "high" on "pot" is from past times simply because for us older folk, we still sometimes like to get a bit blasted, stoned, or blitzed, or baked, or high, or spaced out or whatever one wants to call it.
 
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fernand

Well-Known Member
It's hard to imagine that with the harmless medical profile and the huge therapeutic potential of this herb it's been banned for so long. Unless you're willing to assign superhuman powers to the prohibitionists, you'll have to concede that lousy public relations or marketing or politics, whatever you want to call it, have played at least some role in this absurd state of affairs. It's like what Timothy Leary did for psychedelics.

Trying to communicate with someone who doesn't have a clue, but whose vote is critically needed, mentioning "getting high" is the death knell of any discussion. I'm not even sure what exactly those words mean, but I'm pretty sure that "getting lost" isn't what most patients, who just want to feel better, are after.

So you can disagree all you want, all users are negatively affected by those who talk about how cool it is to "get stoned on weed", "wasted on pot" etc. Language defines experience. Your choice.
 
fernand,

Neceros

Well-Known Member
It's hard to imagine that with the harmless medical profile and the huge therapeutic potential of this herb it's been banned for so long. Unless you're willing to assign superhuman powers to the prohibitionists, you'll have to concede that lousy public relations or marketing or politics, whatever you want to call it, have played at least some role in this absurd state of affairs. It's like what Timothy Leary did for psychedelics.

Trying to communicate with someone who doesn't have a clue, but whose vote is critically needed, mentioning "getting high" is the death knell of any discussion. I'm not even sure what exactly those words mean, but I'm pretty sure that "getting lost" isn't what most patients, who just want to feel better, are after.

So you can disagree all you want, all users are negatively affected by those who talk about how cool it is to "get stoned on weed", "wasted on pot" etc. Language defines experience. Your choice.

That stems from an inherent problem within our society thanks in large part to the Victorians and their prudish ways. That disdain in one's body and self towards the betterment of God filtered out into society and is now a large part of how we do business, unfortunately. Eventually we will weed out the "you have to work to live" backwards mentality.

But since this isn't a topic about that, I say cannabis and other newer terms more than weed or pot, simply because they do have some negative connotations. Ignorance is powerful when it's against you.
 

lwien

Well-Known Member
It's hard to imagine that with the harmless medical profile and the huge therapeutic potential of this herb it's been banned for so long. Unless you're willing to assign superhuman powers to the prohibitionists, you'll have to concede that lousy public relations or marketing or politics, whatever you want to call it, have played at least some role in this absurd state of affairs. It's like what Timothy Leary did for psychedelics.

Trying to communicate with someone who doesn't have a clue, but whose vote is critically needed, mentioning "getting high" is the death knell of any discussion. I'm not even sure what exactly those words mean, but I'm pretty sure that "getting lost" isn't what most patients, who just want to feel better, are after.

So you can disagree all you want, all users are negatively affected by those who talk about how cool it is to "get stoned on weed", "wasted on pot" etc. Language defines experience. Your choice.

I know we're getting way off topic here and we should probably start another thread on this subject but are you suggesting that THC is not an intoxicant or at the very least, a non-toxic mind altering drug..........or that it is but that we should deny that it is ? :shrug:
 
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Neceros

Well-Known Member
I know we're getting way off topic here and we should probably start another thread on this subject but are you suggesting that THC is not an intoxicant or at the very least, a non-toxic mind altering drug..........or that it is but that we should deny that it is ? :shrug:
Of course it is! But so is Advil, and coffee, etc. Labels need to be taken with a grain of salt.
 
Neceros,

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
Trying to communicate with someone who doesn't have a clue, but whose vote is critically needed, mentioning "getting high" is the death knell of any discussion. I'm not even sure what exactly those words mean, but I'm pretty sure that "getting lost" isn't what most patients, who just want to feel better, are after.
I think you are making an assumption that the only "valid" use for MJ is medicinal, and that is poppycock. Much of the support for legalization of cannabis is about its use as an inebriate that is less dangerous and destructive than alcohol, which is clearly poison for the body, a blight on society and perfectly legal and available.

And ON the subject I would suggest that the different ways people are effected by cannabis and the different effects of dosage make it all but impossible to dose THC in any natural state. I would bet, and it's only my guess, that one can certainly be effected by elements of the MJ spectrum without feeling any buzz. I think that is clearly demonstrated by "Charoletts Web", for one example.
 

lwien

Well-Known Member
I think you are making an assumption that the only "valid" use for MJ is medicinal, and that is poppycock. Much of the support for legalization of cannabis is about its use as an inebriate that is less dangerous and destructive than alcohol, which is clearly poison for the body, a blight on society and perfectly legal and available.

Ya know what's interesting about that in regards to alcohol. I sip one shot of scotch a day to raise my HDL levels, which it has done and the way I sip it (one shot lasts about an hour), I never get a buzz off of it since that is not my intent, so in my case, I use it strictly for medical use but I would never deny that it is, in fact, an intoxicant and is used as such by most.
 
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cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
And it's not abuse until it becomes a problem in some way for the individual or those around them. Many folks safely and responsibly consume alcohol. Many do not. I can't see why Cannabis should be any different.
 
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lwien

Well-Known Member
And it's not abuse until it becomes a problem in some way for the individual or those around them. Many folks safely and responsibly consume alcohol. Many do not. I can't see why Cannabis should be any different.

Totally agree. To deny that the primary use of alcohol or cannibis is to get a buzz or to get "high" is akin to:
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fernand

Well-Known Member
We started on the subject of whether medicinal effects were possible without a "high". We don't know at what doses the various effects appear. Whatever the extremes, it seems most of us can even make use of alcohol, a far simpler drug, with or without a "high".

The question was genuine, as was my answer. There is no "primary use" of any pharmaceutical. There's a range of effects, some considered primary, some "side effrects". Which is which depends ENTIRELY on the application. And none are intrinsically "invalid".

That said, many people who benefit from MMJ in decreasing depression, sharpening the senses and improving mood aren't at all after a "high". They just want to feel better. Or less bad. It's not at all "poppycock".

These aren't simple things. Some people are born with deficiencies and do better with chemical aids: antidepressants, anxiolytics, ADD meds, sedatives, whatever you call them. We are discovering that there are naturally occurring endocannabinoids and endorphins that regulate mood and perception, and that are chemically almost identical to plant cannabinoids and opiates. Which is why they work.

When they tried blocking CB1 endocannabinoids with experimental compounds in an effort to preoduce an appetite suppressant, test subjects developed horrific cases of depression. And so, even without going into other effects of cannabis (like the neuroprotective and anti-cancer effects), the range of medicinal uses on mood/mind alone is enormous.

It's hard to say whether those who see themselves as being after a "high", are different socially, psychologically or just in their conditioning and expectations. I wouldn't presume to guess which is "the majority". But I think I can guess which is more socially acceptable, a detail that matters a lot.

I'm not attacking anyone, but it makes a lot more sense to me to see Cannabis as a medicinal substance that can be used at higher dosage as an intoxicant, rather than an intoxicant that some people see as "medicine".

It took me a while to understand what an MD who writes many Cannabis recommendations was saying when he said he was against recreational use.

As to the Alzheimers' patient, cautiously and gradually?
 
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TeeJay1952

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Doesn't THC boil at a lower temp than the "Mystery" goodies available at higher temp? If you smoke it all goes up in a conflagration of soot and stuff. We are at FC so our choices are vaping and medables. It is hard to crack the nut without breaking the shell. (A stoner's way of saying getting goodies without THC) Me? I like it all. I really have looked at clouds from both sides now.
 
TeeJay1952,

Detonator

Well-Known Member
I say get her high ( but don't call it that, if she don't want to be high ) and maybe it will reduce the pain... But not edibles they are unpredictable my parents overdosed on them a few months back and been using weed all my life...

Give her 1 small dab through water of something that you know will make her feel better...
 
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psychonaut

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Since Colorado doesn't consider anxiety a mmj treated condition, I have been having to work on my tolerance and mix up ejuice at low concentrations so I get the perfect effect. I get a slight high but it's similar to the buzz one would get from a low dose of pharm drugs. For me, the anxiety doesn't see much relief until I can noticeably feel the high from the cannabis.

I wouldn't consider myself high, stoned, etc. It's more like a light buzz. Whatever it is it has really improved my life.

In the evenings before bed I tend to get stoned, by choice, recreationally.
 
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