Are clouds of vapor counterproductive?

I think you are definitely wasting vapor when you exhale huge clouds, but you are probably getting a much larger dose each hit anyway, so you can still feel higher more quickly.

If you can finish a load/bowl with sipping, within the same amount of time that would pass between your first and last hit of a bong session, you will probably feel the effects come on just as strongly (if not more, due to less being exhaled). However, if you draw out the session much longer, you might get to the same point of highness, but you'll have eased your way into it, so it might not feel like you got as high as when you took a few massive rips instead.

Are clouds of vapor counterproductive?

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That's an easy one, no. Big clouds work.

Without a doubt, they will get you medicated quicker. Look at how our lungs absorb oxygen, the higher the concentration, the more that gets diffused into the lungs per breath, and thus into our bloodstream.

Is it less efficient?

I see no way of proving that. There are too many factors to take into consideration. Simply measuring the exhaust of our lungs doesn't give us a definitive answer.


What I've always wanted to know is, how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll pop? I'd say about tree fiddy.

GuyLeDuche said:

Yea it's my understanding that the oxygen in your lungs is the carrier for the THC to absorb into your lung walls to be delivered to the bloodstream? So you are limited by both the amount of oxygen in your lungs, as well as the surface area available. This comes into play in the whole "cough to get off" debate, as the lung walls are stretched during coughs, exposing fresh surface area.
Following this logic, I like to take a medium size hit leaving room for a small fresh air inhale 5sec after hit.

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In surprised no one followed up with this. Can I ask where you get the idea the THC and oxygen are linked in terms of absorption? I'm asking out of genuine curiosity, I promise it's less dickish than it sounds. Every way I worded it seemed to come out as a challenge rather than a legit question.

Anyhoozel, if there was a credible source that backed that notion the debate would be over. Large amounts of THC in big clouds would be unable to be absorbed due to the limiting factor of the amount of oxygen present in each breath. Smaller hits would be more efficiently absorbed owing to the oxygen/actives ratio.

I've never personally read any link between oxygen and absorption of actives. My understanding is that pulmonary absorption is based on passive transportation. Meaning stuff naturally passes from an area of high concentration to areas of low concentration. If my understanding is correct it's more of a % of active ingredient that gets absorbed. So large clouds or small clouds doesn't matter, the same amount gets there in the end. Of courses if you drink 5 shots in five minutes and 5 shots over an hour, which feels like it hit you harder?

Orrrrrr I'm just talking out of my butt. Only time and well funded, well designed studied will tell.

I think the oxygen/actives question was legit...

slick said:

Of courses if you drink 5 shots in five minutes and 5 shots over an hour, which feels like it hit you harder?
.

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But to answer this question, 5 shots in an hour and I can tell you that my wife would hit me harder!

And lets not forget the placebo affect of seeing those large clouds.

Placebo effects won't show up on lab tests of the amount of cannabinoids taken in on inhale versus exhale, but it is a very powerful influence nonetheless and can very much influence the amount of "high" that one feels if one is prone to those effects and as such, they are no less valid. (I have a funny feeling that this sentence very much grammatically incorrect, eh? )

I can't believe no one inhaled or exhaled through a filter, like a Kleenex or paper towel. Of course then someone will vape that, lol. A filter will give you an idea if it catches particulates and still gets you high. Exhales will tell you something as well. Grab a Kleenex and get going you slackers!

EverythingsHazy said:

I think you are definitely wasting vapor when you exhale huge clouds, but you are probably getting a much larger dose each hit anyway, so you can still feel higher more quickly.

If you can finish a load/bowl with sipping, within the same amount of time that would pass between your first and last hit of a bong session, you will probably feel the effects come on just as strongly (if not more, due to less being exhaled). However, if you draw out the session much longer, you might get to the same point of highness, but you'll have eased your way into it, so it might not feel like you got as high as when you took a few massive rips instead.

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i kind of look at how I feel 20 minutes or so after I finish a load and found that whether i blast through it in a couple big Cloudy hits in a minute with the daisy or sit for 20 minutes with the No.2, I get pretty much to the same level for the long haul the big difference is where I am 2 minutes after the first hit.

I have always done my own tinkering with this, and I believe that sipping seems to be more efficient from a usage point of view. However I enjoy big clouds, if I was at a stage where I had to watch my consumption and tolerance more, I'd have no issue changing to the "sipping" method. I usually use a mix through a sesh, but I'll never stop blowing huge wasteful clouds as long as I can help it!
Sat through a whole movie in the cinema, sipping very lightly as the solo can blow some huge clouds in a dim lit cinema!(not stealthy) Took in three stems worth, vaped maybe one and a bit. Over 5-6 slow sessions, and for someone with a decenttolerance I remember being mind melting high. One of those every now and then times that remind you of back when it all started!
In fact every time I have to stealth and ghost my hits I'm surprised.

shredder said:

I can't believe no one inhaled or exhaled through a filter, like a Kleenex or paper towel. Of course then someone will vape that, lol. A filter will give you an idea if it catches particulates and still gets you high. Exhales will tell you something as well. Grab a Kleenex and get going you slackers!

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I do this on inhale every night with the hemp fiber filters. Not on exhale though. Might be worth rigging up something...

stickstones said:

I do this on inhale every night with the hemp fiber filters. Not on exhale though. Might be worth rigging up something...

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While this would be interesting, it seems that none of us here have heard of a study that measures THC (and other cannabinoids) on inhale and then at exhale.

stickstones said:

in contrast to @KeroZen 's experience, I once exhaled into a bag until it was full and then emptied that bag to finish the session. I got nothing good out of it...no taste and no effect. ever since I stopped thinking about clouds being wasteful.

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We really need a more scientific setup. With your bag experiment we can't know what amount did condense back on the walls when it cooled down... and unless you wait several hours before taking the contents of the bag, I assume that the effect will be mixed with whatever you inhaled in the first place... so how do you tell what the bag contents added to the high? Plus with the 5-10 minutes onset I mentionned earlier, it's even harder, everything gets delayed...

Exhaling into a filter (or better, a real lab test equipment) is the way to go... But we would have to compare the before vs after concentration not only for THC but for all other actives too... quite an involved and costly task I'm afraid...

At least with my "experience" you can exhale into someone who is completely sober and ask the person how he/she feels 10 minutes after.

KeroZen said:

At least with my "experience" you can exhale into someone who is completely sober and ask the person how he/she feels 10 minutes after.

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That's what I thought too, but now they won't let me back in Walmart!

KeroZen said:

With your bag experiment we can't know what amount did condense back on the walls when it cooled down... and unless you wait several hours before taking the contents of the bag, I assume that the effect will be mixed with whatever you inhaled in the first place... so how do you tell what the bag contents added to the high? Plus with the 5-10 minutes onset I mentionned earlier, it's even harder, everything gets delayed...

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Absolutely correct...it's anecdotal at best. What it did accomplish, however right or wrong, was get me to stop sweating this issue!

stickstones said:

stop sweating this issue!

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I agree.

There are tons of other things we can do to increase our lung function and capacity that would exceed any negligible difference between large and small clouds.

I just read that splashing water on your face will optimize respiration. Starts the Mammalian diving reflex.

This has been a very useful thread/discussion imo. Has helped me cut back on amounts without feeling under medicated and that "savings" now goes to feed my VAS.

slick said:

In surprised no one followed up with this. Can I ask where you get the idea the THC and oxygen are linked in terms of absorption?

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Nope, THC does not bind to oxygen. Oxygen is absorbed by hemoglobin in the blood, while Cannabis vapor is (mostly) absorbed into blood plasma, which is mostly water, but also contains various proteins and lipids that bind to the chemicals in the vapor (such as THC). When these chemicals pass though the brain, they attach to various receptors which cause a range of effects.

(see sec. 2.3 http://examine.com/supplements/Marijuana/)

Far as clouds...I think the only thing we know for sure is that a good portion of THC is exhaled (35% according to the study I mentioned earlier), so that leaves a 65% absorption rate. So instead of big or little hits, I think @Iwien 's "re-breathing" technique is the winner, regardless of hit size...

sickmanfraud said:

While this would be interesting, it seems that none of us here have heard of a study that measures THC (and other cannabinoids) on inhale and then at exhale.

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The university of Leiden (Netherlands) did some research about this. There is an entire book "Arno Hazekamp, Evaluation of a Vaporizing Device".
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...sCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

I read another research (sadly I can't find it anymore), apparently 35-65% of activities can be extracted from Bedrocan bud (medical weed supplier) with a volcano. It can then finally deliver between 25-40% of activities to his user calculated from the total amount from starting material.
One study was made with hash oil, the vapor was nearly pur thc, cbn, and cbd; 95% of activities in total (the other 5% were terpenes and hydrocarbons). 35% of the activities where exhaled. Test persons had different lung size and volumes but the resorption was always around 2/3. They did a long inhalation and retained the vapor for 10 seconds in their lungs before exhaling.
But even if a very low thc strain is used, the volcano (probably most other vapes, too) has a surprisingly high amount of activities, vapor has around 35% of activities with a starting material only containing 4% Thc (!).
Since we all probably have top shelf buds with 20-30% of activities which should result in very clean, pure vapor, I simply try to keep most of the vapor in my lungs with exact @lwien 's technique:

lwien said:

That's why I like to re-breath. Take a massive hit. Hold for 5 seconds. Exhale a bit of cloud. Inhale more air. Hold for a few seconds. Exhale a little bit. Inhale again. Rinse and repeat about 4 times.

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Edit: I have a MFLB and a Mighty. There is no need to tell which one gets me higher. Both are really "effective" in their own way. But I feel like the thc in my blood systems decreases faster than the MFLB can deliver new activities... So I prefer definitely big clouds.

Demi Lavato's 'Here we go again' seems appropriate.......

Awhile back I tagged/acronym-ed the inhalation technique lwien reiterated as 'L.I.T' for lwien's inhalation technique. The tag line was Using L.I.T. to get lit. I still use LIT I just don't count the seconds anymore between the exhale and re-inhale. Having seen the info in this thread that oxygen isn't the transport mechanism.....the re-inhale is to get more oxygen into my lungs so I won't be forced to completely exhale causing me to empty my lungs of any residual goodness still left in my lungs.

If I wanted to use efficiently I would say huge clouds inhaled and exhaled are wasteful. Smaller hits inhaled through the first half of the inhale deep into the lungs and then the last half of the inhale is all oxygen to push it and hold it down further/longer ....followed by using LIT as the oxygen depletes would be the most efficient.
BUT if you were to ask me what's most enjoyable - Big Ol Fluffy White Clouds

If I were in a dry spell....I'd go with smaller hits that when exhaled leave a wisp and a memory. When I want to celebrate something - breakin out the bubbler and I'm going to chase them clouds.

steama said:

Above is the way I have understood the way our lungs absorb oxygen and actives. Because of this whether you hold a hit in for a period of time or simply exhale after a hit. You lung absorption is maxed out either way.

The Tale: Holding a hit in gets you higher.
Myth or Fact: MYTH -- Almost all of the THC is absorbed by your lungs in the first three seconds. After that, the remaining cannabinoids and tars in the weed are all that’s left.
However: You might pass out from lack of oxygen and hit your head on the linoleum. Then you’ll bestoned, but definitely not high!

source

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But it's not all about the THC is it? I bought and paid for those cannabinoids too.

I think of this along the lines of osmosis and seeking equilibrium but this is probably to simplistic. Are you saying there is absolutely no benefit to re-inhalation?

Every opportunity for the actives to hit the surface of your lungs HAS to result in more absorption. I'm fairly certain you get benefits from your re-inhale behavior. And that is why I have tended to do it for quite some time. I enjoy big hits, but I feel like I get better results from more smaller hits. And I cough much less.

steama said:

tars in the weed

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Do we get tars from vaping herb or dabbing concentrates? Not trying to being a jerk, just curious?

we get tar from combustion, right?

Oops, wrong thread

stickstones said:

we get tar from combustion, right?

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That is what I would think. No combustion, no tars. Settled smoke, not vapor.

steama said:

However, the information is still good regarding how your lungs absorb. They are maxed out in about three seconds. Holding in does not help get you higher. This is just physical fact.

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Considering how we all physically differ quite a bit including the ability of how efficient our lungs are at absorption, I don't know if a general statement like that holds water.

Also, when re-breathing, you're taking in fresh oxygen to be mixed in with the original hit. Now I don't know this to be fact, but strictly from a logical point of view, I would think that it very well could be the equivalent of a fresh hit, eh?