Is Brass Safe?

the electrician

Well-Known Member
CrazyFingers said:
Are we seriously just gonna let that comment slide and call this an objective thread? I'm sorry to kind of derail this thread but IMO Tom is acting completely out of hand
man dont appologise, youre bang on. so much shits slid so far youd think were in a scat film

its this manipulative behavior that won the purple days its popularity, abusing also the popularity of these bullshit grass roots businesses that have cropped up in the past few years to get to where it is. of course its fine under the rules because its not name calling and is written with piss irrating holier than thou attitude.

the arguments presented here and in many other threads always have the same basic structure and always involve the same group, yet it is whoever theyve decided to take on that are punished. why is that?
 
the electrician,

Purple-Days

Well-Known Member
The archived pages are there because you asked for them. Get the timeline straight. It wasn't till late 2007 that I found out. Only because of questioning his advertising copy. And only because this new LEAD FREE issue has come up am I posting any of this.

And the post #284 quote is there because you questioned my use of the 'risk taker' name.

I posted Brass and Lead info then the derails start. What positive contributions are you folks making?


http://www.alshielding.com/services/msds.pdf

Section 7 protection measures is interesting.
 
Purple-Days,

obelisk

Idiot (no relation to the Savants)
i bought and used the prolab lead surface test kit and tested the brass tip of the mz tube & the mz heatport or whatever that thing where you put the stem in is called (and also tested on the brass portions around it).

I tested the mz stem both hot and cold. the other parts were hot because the mz was plugged in when i did the test.

everything came out neutral. the color of my test strips were orange even after rubbing them against different brass parts for over two minutes each. orange is the safe color and is what the test strips become when you put water on them, which is part of the instructions. no red, no pink, no purple, which are the dangerous colors. i tested each part three times (mz stem hot and cold, the heat well and the brass parts around it, where the big clip is). and then, on one stem, i scratched the brass surface with a scissor to expose new brass beneath. i then tested the exposed brass. i had no real reason for doing this, had extra strips i guess. this, too, was neutral.

so, as far as the tests i did go, the results indicate that there no is no leachable lead on the surface of the brass portions i tested on the mz stem and vape itself. how accurate this test kit is, lord only knows. i bought it at home depot. it is manufactured/packaged by pro-lab.

i do not own a camera so cannot post pics.
 
obelisk,

wthanna

Well-Known Member
Post #101 mentioned the only truly lead free brass as being C464. I wonder what the downside is of using this instead ? :cool:
 
wthanna,

lwien

Well-Known Member
wthanna said:
Post #101 mentioned the only truly lead free brass as being C464. I wonder what the downside is of using this instead ? :cool:
The only reason why lead is added to brass is to make it more pliable so I'd imagine that C464 is harder to work with.
 
lwien,

Rick

Zapman
Thanks for doing the test obelisk. Very interesting results in light of what we heard earlier.
My response to all this is posted on my thread.
 
Rick,

vtac

vapor junkie
Staff member
First of all, sorry that I wasn't around to moderate this thread today, so soon after re-opening it. Holiday weekend.

I outlined some very simple rules for this thread a few pages back to keep discussion civil, factual and on track. I will repeat them here a third time and infractions will be given as promised to those who ignored them.

If you can't follow our Be Nice rules, do not post in this thread.
Do not post if your post consists of essentially "I think it's safe" or "I think it's a risk" i.e. Opinion.
Forum rules are in effect as always. Please read them.


Infractions will be given without warning to those who choose to ignore these rules.



There have been questions of whether or not specific products should be mentioned by name. Our Be Nice rules cover this. Please read them. This is a thread about brass. If a vaporizer uses brass, mention is inevitable. As long all comments abide by our Be Nice rules, that's ok.

Material safety discussion belongs in the general section (that's where this thread is) and NOT directly in a vaporizer's model thread. If you can't stand to see the safety of a material discussed because your vaporizer uses it, simply do not read the material discussion thread.

Again, PLEASE keep it civil, factual, and on topic or do not post in this thread. Thank you!
 
vtac,

Nicholas Wolfwood

Well-Known Member
aero18 said:
As far as I am concerned, this settles it. :2c:
My sentiments exactly, good sir. :D

modnote: You've ignored the rules outlined directly above this post. Infractions given.
 
Nicholas Wolfwood,

lwien

Well-Known Member
Obelisk did a test and it came out negative. Tom did a test and it came back positive. I'm not quite sure what it is that settles it.
 
lwien,

Purple-Days

Well-Known Member
If you test a Lead Free portion of the item, it's not surprising you get a negative result. But other parts using Brass with Lead added test positive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyA_Z4y3W3I
2rn7t6g.jpg


I haven't done the test on the bronze colored sleeve yet and don't know what results to expect. But as we have seen there are portions where Lead is present and these portions are in the airpath.


So, yes, that settles it, portions are Lead Free and portions are not. It's a Partially Lead Free Air Path. :cool:

(BTW my middle name is Clyde and I have been called 'Clyde the Carpenter' by many. I am not embarrassed about my name. :lol: )
 
Purple-Days,

lwien

Well-Known Member
So to summarize. There is brass that contains lead in the air path of this particular vape. There are similar vapes that do not use brass of any kind, which takes the lead issue totally out of the equation. One can choose to use a vape that is made with brass that contains lead and expose themselves to risk of lead contamination. That risk may be extremely small, but then again, maybe not. For me, and from everything that I have read in this thread so far, the jury is still out on this issue regarding the cumulative affects of minute lead exposure over time. The option, of course, would be to choose a vape that does not contain ANY brass in it whatsoever, which takes this whole issue out of the equation.

I believe that what I stated above is pretty objective. I am not suggesting that a vape that uses brass in it's construction is either safe or not safe. I am saying, from everything that has been posted in this thread, that we really don't have a definitive answer on this and being that we don't, there are many that would rather error on the side of caution and choose a vape without any brass at all in it's construction......... and that choice is just as valid as one who is perfectly willing to take a chance that the lead issue is really a non issue.

If anything was accomplished here, it was that we can go into that decision making process a bit more informed than we were before.
 
lwien,

obelisk

Idiot (no relation to the Savants)
Purple-Days said:
If you test a Lead Free portion of the item, it's not surprising you get a negative result. But other parts using Brass with Lead added test positive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyA_Z4y3W3I
http://i39.tinypic.com/2rn7t6g.jpg

I haven't done the test on the bronze colored sleeve yet and don't know what results to expect. But as we have seen there are portions where Lead is present and these portions are in the airpath.


So, yes, that settles it, portions are Lead Free and portions are not. It's a Partially Lead Free Air Path. :cool:

(BTW my middle name is Clyde and I have been called 'Clyde the Carpenter' by many. I am not embarrassed about my name. :lol: )
i tested the brass tips of four stems. hot and cold. scratched, unscratched. the heat well, inside and outside, where the stems are inserted. and i tested the brass surface around the heat well, the stuff that has all the holes. are you confirming that these parts don't have lead according to your tests too? just wondering because you said some parts have lead and some parts don't. and you also implied that i tested lead free parts. that sounds like you are confirming that some brass parts in the MZ don't have lead.

which is odd since the parts i tested are made with the same alloy as the outside of the heatsink, which you tested. in fact, i did test the same exact part you did, except another side of it.

as things currently stand, the tests are inconclusive at best. irrelevant at worst. your enthusiasm is best reserved for a more fitting moment.
 
obelisk,
I have read all these posts (painfully sometimes) and the question that comes to MY mind is:

Are we concerned about absorbing lead by drawing air across a surface that contains some trace amounts or is it more about HEATING those parts and drawing air across them.

I assume the latter since there are many lead-containing things an average person will be exposed to in their life and I am unaware of any studies done on absorption via general proximity.

I understand that SOFT lead melts at a little over 600F. Bear in mind, no vaporization of the lead is happening at this point. When you get to about 3000F, lead boils. It is not until it boils that any vapors are released. Obviously since an alloy like brass contains other metal(s) it will boil slightly differently. To my understanding, you do not actually put any of these lead-containing parts into your body, right?

So here is the crux:

None of these "log-type" vapes even approach 600F, let alone get over 3000 so how valid is a fear that you will absorb any of it? It is akin (IMHO) to not leaving your house because you COULD get struck by lightning on a clear day or carjacked in your driveway. I don't know the stats for lightning strikes, but I have never met anyone who was struck and I know it happens statistically. The carjacking thing, much more frequently I know.

In light of all that, I don't understand anyone getting their panties in a wad over this "issue" anymore than I understand the kooks who claim childhood vaccinations are causing Down's Syndrome and subsequently unleashing their disease-ridden offspring on the public school systems.

By the way, anyone do any work on their cars? There is a pretty good amount of lead in the average car that you will be exposed to doing some repairs. Ever changed out your battery? ;)
 
Howie Feltersnatch,

lwien

Well-Known Member
Howie Feltersnatch said:
In light of all that, I don't understand anyone getting their panties in a wad over this "issue" anymore than I understand the kooks who claim childhood vaccinations are causing Down's Syndrome and subsequently unleashing their disease-ridden offspring on the public school systems.
Well, two totally different issues, being that those who want to limit their exposure to lead is a personal choice and does not lead to any negative consequences on anyone else as opposed to your vaccination analogy. You also made a very condescending post regarding those that have these concerns over in the MZ thread by implying that if they have these concerns that they also drive Priuses, and listen to Michael Bolten on their ipods, as if to imply that somehow, that's a bad thing.

What I don't understand is all the animosity against those that do have these concerns regarding exposure to brass. It's nothing more than a personal choice that one makes. I sure as hell don't see people in the other camp calling those that are willing to take a bit of a risk and labeling them as idiots with a death wish for doing so.

Why can't we just discuss these issues without either the blatant name calling or the passive-aggressive stance that has been expressed above.

What we are talking about here is exposure to lead from brass and the possible dangers. Can't we just discuss this objectively without throwing about subjective labels on people?
 
lwien,

Purple-Days

Well-Known Member
Let's get something straight, one more fucking time, I have never said the Aromazap or Myrtlezap were un-safe. I have never said you will get Lead poisoning from using one of these products.


@ Obelisk - Maybe you missed post #83
"Our brass is alloy 260 which is lead free. Thank you for your kind words.

J.C. Pell
National Sales Manager
K&S Engineering"

That is the brass tubing you tested. It is declared Lead free and you tested it and it is Lead free. Where is the surprise? Take your unit apart and test the heat sink and you will get the same results that I did.

See post #94 where Rick ignores the other portions of the airpath? Same as you are doing.

Or see his post #1601 in the Mzap thread. "As far as I know the heatsink material and the washer are not ROHs (sic)" Also he fails to mention the 1" sleeve which I will test later.

So your negative results are to be expected. And my positive results are not surprising, seeing what Rick just said about the heat sink.

This forum is here for the sharing of information. If this forum and this thread were available when I made our purchase in 2003 I would have known about the Lead in the Aromazap airpath. But the only info I had to go on (buyer beware) was Rick's FAQ which touted his Lead free solder. According to Rick he knew of the Lead content of brass from the beginning (see post #1601). :uhoh: But choose not to share that info.


I choose, for me and my family, not to breathe through a heated product that contains Lead. You choose for yours. But today in 2010 you can make a more informed choice than the one available to me in 2003. You now know the Aromazap and Myrtlezap contain Lead, the manufacterer says so, the tests prove it.

Oh BTW post # 119 is quite interesting, considering Rick says several places that there is Lead in his product. "We will not be spending any money for tests to prove the negative " Well of course not, because the tests will be positive.

So there is no need to cloud the issue. The Aromazap (tested) and the Myrtlezap (using the same materials) both contain Lead. Period. End of question. The manufacturer says they do!

I am not saying they are un-safe. I am not saying you shouldn't buy them. I am just sharing information, you must draw your own conclusions.

+++++

Now lets start a list of all vape makers who use brass in their airpath. And post any test results or further mfg information on the Lead content of their product.

+++++

1- Aromazap, available at http://www.aromazap.com/
Manufacturer info: FAQ page- "We use no lead solder in all of our constuction processes. We do use brass tubing in the manufacture of the heatport assembly and the vapor stem tips. Brass contains a very tiny amount of lead."
Test results on an Aromazap heat sink using the Pro-Lab Lead Surface Test Kit.
Positive for Lead.

2- Myrtlezap, available at http://www.aromazap.com/
Manufacturer info: FAQ page- "We use no lead solder in all of our constuction processes. We do use brass tubing in the manufacture of the heatport assembly and the vapor stem tips. Brass contains a very tiny amount of lead."
Test results: untested

3- looking for another vaporizer manufacturer who uses brass in the airpath to add to the list.
 
Purple-Days,

TheGinni

Keeping Canada Green!
Greetings all ... As I just made my first post in the 'New Extreme Q" threads .. and it was rather detailed and lengthy... I will keep this short and Brass/Lead free only...

Wondering if anyone can weigh in on the lead free qualities (if any of the) Extreme Q.. I am also looking to have some questions answered about the vaporization/oxidization/melting points of Stainless Steel (should there be a new thread started or is this hands down safe?!?)

I realize that this all may have a better place somewhere else, and please feel free to respond to my Extreme Q post or direct me to other posts about Stainless Steel ??... just trying to get some responses!!

Thanks !!
:peace:

modnote: Please stay on topic. Do not hijack this thread.
 
TheGinni,

Purple-Days

Well-Known Member
Welcome to the forum Ginni.

Stainless steel is an industry standard in the commercial food preperation industry. Also for brewing and milk processing etc. You are probably using a stainless steel spoon to eat your Wheaties. When you go for bloodwork they insert stainless steel into you, it is used in many surgical proceedures and even implants.
 
Purple-Days,

lwien

Well-Known Member
Stainless steel is the most widely used product in kitchen appliances, such as stoves and such, as well as cooking utensils like pots and pans, that routinely get exposed to VERY high temperatures in 100% of the restaurants in the world. I really don't see that stainless is an issue, especially when compared to the concerns of lead found in brass.
 
lwien,

Rick

Zapman
Tom says:
"Let's get something straight, one more fucking time, I have never said the Aromazap or Myrtlezap were un-safe. I have never said you will get Lead poisoning from using one of these products."

You sure do thoroughly imply AZ/MZ is unsafe quite often. I would say most folks here would say you think the AZ/MZ is unsafe, based on your website and your words.
How does the lead in the brass get to a human?
My winging it feeble mind understands that if I melt a chunk of brass tubing into a glob of molten brass, the lead is still in the alloy. Is that correct? Or am I wrong again?
 
Rick,

TheGinni

Keeping Canada Green!
Hey thanks guys!

And Tom I have used one of your products.. don't own one yet !... But much respect my friend! Great unit!!! I think you guys are doing great!!

Not to knock anyone else! ... Not interested in getting involved in anything!! ;) :uhoh: :lol:

I realize that stainless is used in all of those wonderful applications...I have some understanding of it ... and I realize also that it is industry standard... I am sure many dangerous things were at one time ...standard... not to say at all that stainless is at all dangerous ... i don't know/\... stainless .. unlike titanium for example, stainless is made with chromium... I am not sure what the temperatures are for the reaction/oxidization /vaporization of it is?!? And mostly I am trying to determine the average type and quality of the stainless used in specific units ( as I said I made an appropriate post in the Extreme Q forum)... Just figured you guys would be the ones to point me in the right direction!

Thanks
 
TheGinni,

jeffp

psychonaut/retired
Purple-Days said:
Welcome to the forum Ginni.

Stainless steel is an industry standard in the commercial food preperation industry. Also for brewing and milk processing etc. You are probably using a stainless steel spoon to eat your Wheaties. When you go for bloodwork they insert stainless steel into you, it is used in many surgical proceedures and even implants.
Tom, when I eat my Frank 'N Berries the spoons I use say "stainless" and "made in china." Not sure if they're actually stainless steel. Happy Easter man.
 
jeffp,

TheGinni

Keeping Canada Green!
I guess the major thing is stainless under heat .. how much and how long b4 the combining elements break down ?? Heavy questions I know ... I am trying to do the best I can to research.. lol

I guess I will jump in !! :2c: I would want to try and avoid all use of any potentially harmful toxic substances anywhere in my vaporizer, regardless of the amount. If I am going to breath in through something on a daily basis... if I have the conscious choice... I choose the safest product.. hands down.
 
TheGinni,

TheGinni

Keeping Canada Green!
That is really my point though! ..lol... Can I trust the composition of the stainless? is it made in China and mostly Chromium?? I don't know .. lol... just stoned and stirring some SH*T!!

]
"Purple-Days wrote:

Welcome to the forum Ginni.

Stainless steel is an industry standard in the commercial food preperation industry. Also for brewing and milk processing etc. You are probably using a stainless steel spoon to eat your Wheaties. When you go for bloodwork they insert stainless steel into you, it is used in many surgical proceedures and even implants.

JEFF P wrote:Tom, when I eat my Frank 'N Berries the spoons I use say "stainless" and "made in china." Not sure if they're actually stainless steel. Happy Easter man."



YES HAPPY EASTER... ( well nice to have some time off !!) :)

modnote: Please stay on topic. Do not hijack this thread any further.
 
TheGinni,
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