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Concentrates for Noobs - Q&A

Tstat

Dead Foot Designs
Accessory Maker
Yea, it's basic QWET done with Everclear. 3 minute ice cold wash. I know butane will give a better return, but I just don't want to fuck with it. This is easy, fun and creates a great product.

I have used plenty of top shelf nugs in the past, but the lower stuff from this strain is just busting with trichs. I figured it would be good and it is exceeding my expectations. Problem is, it's indica so I have to wait until evening to start dabbing it, LOL. Got some Sativa going now, so maybe I'll get lucky again :)
 

NickDlow

Log Hog
Agreed! I'm a QWET fan also I like EC an KX. I do mess with tane here and there but it's a hassle imo.

I'm assuming u cultivate. If that's the case I'd do the exact same thing. Keep the good nugs and QWET the rest. I'm actually pretty jealous lol. Keep up the good work.
 

Tstat

Dead Foot Designs
Accessory Maker
Yea, both my son and myself are patients. But, I've been cultivating since the 80's :)

I mentioned some of this before in this thread, but we typically snag 1 pound top buds, 1/2 pound of smaller stuff, a bunch of trim, and a huge amount of fan leaves. We use it all. Patients get the top shelf, we make shatter from the popcorn, turn the trim into bubble, and use the fan leaves for juice!
 

OldOyler

Fire it again. I can still find the ground.
Hey everyone,

Thought I would jump in with a noob question.

Can I get some opinions on the *starting* state of the dried material used to make concentrates?

My experience (yeah, yeah - :myday:), I came to realize, is still to process dried colas that...the stork brought me...the same way that I did back when I wanted it for combusting.

5-7 day dry on branches (bone dry RH - 20% on a high day), then I would trim buds into mason jars and cure for 2-3 weeks.

But I am getting old, and would like to just hang branches for 7-14 days until dry enough to do an ethanol extraction (RSO oil method, QWET).

I have been trying to be more scientific in my approach to things, and realized that I have a HUGE blind spot with making cannabis oil - the state of the starting material. And I had a hard time finding consistent information and/or opinions.

Basically, how dry is *too* dry to make oil, as in "Do I need to make sure I don't get to xx point when drying?" Is curing absolutelynecessary? Those kinds of questions I simply didn't ask because I was still doing a full cure on bud as if I was preparing it for display or something, if that makes sense. I would like to simplify to a "14 day dry only" or something, but don't want to dramatically hurt my final quality and/or yield.

Even some general opinions would help a lot.

(If any heavy-hitters like @Puffers or @DieHard could weigh in I'd appreciate it).

Peace and good things to everyone.
 

lonelyhero

the lost soul
Company Rep
im far from an expert only been making concentrates since august but all the research ive done everyone agrees youd want as much moisture out of the bud as possible and then freeze it to lock up any remaining water as ice before doing the 3 min wash in equally cold ethanol
 

OldOyler

Fire it again. I can still find the ground.
im far from an expert only been making concentrates since august but all the research ive done everyone agrees youd want as much moisture out of the bud as possible and then freeze it to lock up any remaining water as ice before doing the 3 min wash in equally cold ethanol
Thanks @lonelyhero that's what I do - I am feeling better and better about my plan to switch my initial handling to more of a straight dry. (I have several concurrent projects going for the next stork delivery, and some results are being compared to others, so I wanted to firm this up before starting them!)

:D

Peace to you!
 

lonelyhero

the lost soul
Company Rep
im glad i could help set your mind at ease im still fairly new around here but im always trying to learn somthing new any new way to improve my results although ive had some very experienced people compliment my end product im never 100% convinced its good enough
 
lonelyhero,
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OldOyler

Fire it again. I can still find the ground.
im glad i could help set your mind at ease im still fairly new around here but im always trying to learn somthing new any new way to improve my results although ive had some very experienced people compliment my end product im never 100% convinced its good enough
Wow, did we get separated at birth or something? I mean, I AM adopted...!

I don't think we should ever be 100% convinced we are at the end of bettering our end product. But I doubt you are falling short.

Your posts say "open mind, humility, and scientific curiosity".

That's 90% of the way to 100% IMO.

Peace and good things to you!
 

lonelyhero

the lost soul
Company Rep
haha while i do know all of my brothers my father did have a twin that was given up at birth but that another story lol but yea im a tinkerer, inventor, wanted to be an engineer but couldent afford the schooling had to take care of my family instead lol

but back on topic the best upgrade ive made to my tech so far is switchign to vaccum filtering and the stainless mesh 10 micron screens
 

OldOyler

Fire it again. I can still find the ground.
Weirder by the minute...

@DieHard and some other folks just helped me with my filtration questions on another thread (@amberevil has a great one going about ISO canna-caps in the "Cooking with Cannabis" over here, by the way).

So I decided to order this:

2-75-quart-pyrex-vacuum-chamber-with-vp2d-dual-stage-pump-16.gif


Got the go ahead from the wife. (Which is really "Okay, you can have it. TWO WEEKS. I just need you to control yourself for TWO WEEKS...")

:shrug:

Peace!
 

Puffers

Micro-Climate Mastermind
@OldOyler

There is actually a different name even for extracts from freshly harvested material and fully cured material, concrete and oleoresin respectively. There are arguments for different ones for different reasons I suspect you might eventually end up being more interested in the concrete extraction (fresh, minimal to no cure preserving more delicate terps) given your attention to the ND oil thread. A concrete extraction should be done on material frozen in a low RH environment with all solvents and extraction vessels chilled if possible to lock up as much moisture as possible.

Here's some reading for you...https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/is-fresh-frozen-ok-for-bho.49669/
Gray wolf touches on his vac filtration setup in this thread something you asked about. I am personally not using a vac filtration setup right now when I do I'll probably use a Buchner filter with an erienmeyer flask, unless I ghetto rig something which is entirely plausible :science: . I don't see myself personally wanting to go through the .2 micron syringe filtration unless I was worried about mold spores or something of the sort.

http://skunkpharmresearch.com/bho-extraction/
Good reading in here. Patient test panels reported the freshly frozen material as being the most flavorful followed closely by the material cured for only 5-7 days where small stems start to snap and it would be ready for jar curing.

@lonelyhero
Vac setups are sometimes used for vac filtration, or faster purging larger runs of solvents like ISO or ethanol with higher boiling points off at lower temperatures to preserve more terpenes.
 
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Monsoon

Well-Known Member
Well looks like FC strikes another blow against my wallet, I've decided to invest in a BestValueVacs purge setup for my QWISO. Total cost with everything and customs/taxes is nearly $800 but I make it often enough I think it's worth it for the improved quality as well as time savings. I'm also getting the Activated Carbon canister since it seems to be worth it for using it inside. The setup I ordered was the 1.6Gal Flat chamber, Single-Stage pump and the flat heater to go with it. I'm using a finicky griddle now for purging so this will mean I can set the exact temp and leave it for a few hours without worrying.

I ordered it yesterday morning with UPS Worldwide Expedited and it should be here by noon.
 

OldOyler

Fire it again. I can still find the ground.
I swear it's like xmas freaking morning here on FC sometimes!

All your posts let me firm up what I want to do. And I love when I am subtly reminded that, after I gather all the info that I can, it IS okay to think for myself, too. (Thanks @Puffers ).

My 3 projects are actually concurrent, comparitive tests. I needed to have an even playing field to start.

So... here is what I have decided on.

I will be running 4 zips each towards "ND Sap", "standard ethanol extraction method", and "Uber-Heat Method" and comparing the results.

I've decided no darn sug leaf trimming - colas will have fan leaves, stems, and all smaller fan leaves growing out of the buds all removed. But the white widow strain I am working with is trike-crazed on the sug leaves, and I am old. My call, and it still keeps the all the tests "even".

I will dry for approx 14 days on branches until bone-mf'ing-dry. Then trim the buds off the branches.

Starting with frozen alcohol and frozen buds, I will use 750ml Everclear 191 per each 4-zip run with a 5-minute wash (first-wash only for the tests - second wash I will throw in the rest of the trim, and make topicals).

I'll strain using my usual method - grade 90 cheesecloth for a "tea bag" for the starting material, another grade 90 cheesecloth strain of the ethanol/cannabis mash when I pour the mash into three separate food-grade SS containers.

I am NOT going to freeze it afterwards. I do not actually want to lock up the water again here for some other sub-tests I am interested in. Oil is only for me, anyway.

Then air-evaporate off the EC at room temperature with a fan on low on the other side of a dark room.

1. The ND Sap I will let naturally decarb for 90-120 days (part of the testing is to enumerate the time needed from scratch, as well as the "burps" needed, etc.).

2. The "regular oil" I will finish in a 250F oil bath until both solvent bubbles finish appearing, and then until visual drop-off of CO2 bubble production occurs.

3. The "Uber-Heat Method"...I am working on that rig. Basically a "Pyrex high-school chemistry distillation set" seems to be needed, so that the oil reaches 300-400F until it vaporizes and reconstitutes. I will use the same fondue pot I use now for oil decarb, except use high-heat saffron oil for the Pyrex beaker holding the oil to sit in and set the fondue pot heat to 400F. (Again, part of the reason for my interest in this testing? This process of Uber-heating is poorly described, if at all, by those who say they have moved beyond theory into actual finished oil).

4. Finishing - All three versions of oil will be "finished" by mixing with my personal ratios of skunk pharm's "Holy Anointing Oil" recipe in a hot tap-water bath. I use the oil primarily sublingually, and now I always use that recipe, and so I decided that sublingual HAO is the going to be the best way for me to compare the three results. (I know what to expect).

I will rely on a blacklight both before and after the process to check for mold. Not too concerned in the final analysis (except for fear of public opinion, the "chronic scourge of my peace"), since the drying environment is 15-20% RH and 70-75F. Colas are checked before harvesting with a blacklight. I will check all "finished" oil a second time with a blacklight as well.

So, I am going to hold off on my vacuum chamber purchase for a month or so. I realized that I really need to spend that money on purchasing/developing the "Uber-Heat" distillation setup. (I am sort of flying blind with it, will let everyone know what the final setup looks like - opinions for creating it are *always* welcome).

Thanks everyone, I mean that.

Peace and healing to all!
 
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2clicker

Observer
@OldOyler

There is actually a different name even for extracts from freshly harvested material and fully cured material, concrete and oleoresin respectively. There are arguments for different ones for different reasons I suspect you might eventually end up being more interested in the concrete extraction (fresh, minimal to no cure preserving more delicate terps) given your attention to the ND oil thread. A concrete extraction should be done on material frozen in a low RH environment with all solvents and extraction vessels chilled if possible to lock up as much moisture as possible.

Here's some reading for you...https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/is-fresh-frozen-ok-for-bho.49669/
Gray wolf touches on his vac filtration setup in this thread something you asked about. I am personally not using a vac filtration setup right now when I do I'll probably use a Buchner filter with an erienmeyer flask, unless I ghetto rig something which is entirely plausible :science: . I don't see myself personally wanting to go through the .2 micron syringe filtration unless I was worried about mold spores or something of the sort.

http://skunkpharmresearch.com/bho-extraction/
Good reading in here. Patient test panels reported the freshly frozen material as being the most flavorful followed closely by the material cured for only 5-7 days where small stems start to snap and it would be ready for jar curing.

@lonelyhero
Vac setups are sometimes used for vac filtration, or faster purging larger runs of solvents like ISO or ethanol with higher boiling points off at lower temperatures to preserve more terpenes.

im glad you brought this up with links. super fresh extracted material produces a clear shatter right? because the trichs havent started to amber yet. at least if memory serves correct.

from what i understand... this shit is amazing

@OldOyler... been thinking about a vac setup just like the bestvaluevac kit you bought. nice.
 
2clicker,
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OldOyler

Fire it again. I can still find the ground.
im glad you brought this up with links. super fresh extracted material produces a clear shatter right? because the trichs havent started to amber yet. at least if memory serves correct.

from what i understand... this shit is amazing

@OldOyler... been thinking about a vac setup just like the bestvaluevac kit you bought. nice.
Ha! Yes, I am going to hold off for a month on it.

because the trichs havent started to amber yet

Yeah, I hate that we can't talk about how to handle our girls while they are still alive for the best resulting *starting* material. It makes a difference!

I'll just say my mantra is "milky milky milky"! (That gives you more room to do THC-to-CBN conversion later on to change the character of the oil.)

THC to CBN is a ONE-way process...

:lol:

Peace!
 

mixchu69

Well-Known Member
What is live resin? I bought some moxie live resin at my dispensary and it was delicious. Not sure if it is worth $10 more than good shatter for .5g at dispensaries, but it was light in color, smelled good, and tasty.
 
mixchu69,
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mixchu69

Well-Known Member
Live refers to it being made from fresh uncured buds, frozen and processed right after take down.
Should produce a somewhat more clear, much 'terpier' result.
So the main difference is the taste? Does it change potency when frozen when it's uncured?
 
mixchu69,
Sad to say i cannot say anything on this out of experience, but i suspect it might have a somewhat more 'headhigh' effect vs a more 'bodystoned' due to there being more THC-a left, which in more cured buds would have turned to THC.
That's the one thing i've noticed with the Rosin tech concentrates, these pack quite a punch, which (again i suspect) might be due with the heat applied there being perfect for this conversion.
Probably helps also if you then immediately consume it.:D
Bu as stated that's mostly pure speculation on my part.
 
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amberevil

Well-Known Member
@OldOyler Im serious about you wanting to get a vac set up with the removable orange silicone gasket, if applicable for your purpose. That means getting a round pyrex chamber instead of the rectangle. I know from experience, I have the non-removable neoprene one and I have had to replace the gasket several times. It wears groves in the gasket and stops wanting to make a seal. im sure @DieHard seconds that.
 

OldOyler

Fire it again. I can still find the ground.
@OldOyler Im serious about you wanting to get a vac set up with the removable orange silicone gasket, if applicable for your purpose. That means getting a round pyrex chamber instead of the rectangle. I know from experience, I have the non-removable neoprene one and I have had to replace the gasket several times. It wears groves in the gasket and stops wanting to make a seal. im sure @DieHard seconds that.
@amberevil ,

I absolutely agree, just putting the straining of the material somewhere else in the process for after I do my various franken-tests. For this testing, I am going to do it :myday:, since I already have so many new variables to account for.

I'm putting a bit of money into a borisilicate beaker/gasket/glass tubing DIY setup for the "Uber-Heat", and wanted to add on to that rig's components for straining.

It was one of the reasons that I am glad that I got things somewhat "fleshed out" - I want everything on it to be interchangeable/modifiable so to speak, based on purpose. I want to add graduated pipettes (borosilicate piping) down to a syringe to strain to 0.1 microns.

I had always counted on (just IMO for OldOyler's science) the extensive work in the wine industry as a comfort when it came to killing stuff. Alcohol over 80 proof at 104F on material kills a wide range of mold spores, specifically A. Niger, and also induces (at that temperature, as long as it is over 30 seconds long) inhibitory effects on any remaining inactive spores. Since I was spending several hours slowly getting rid of the EC in a boiling water bath (around 210F-ish) I felt pretty good about it, and never have had a blacklight show me mold. (The exception was some jar cure stuff that I forgot about for 3 months to open during curing - even that was just a dusting).

Since I am getting away from heat for evap'ing the ethanol, I wanted to strain down pretty far - to 0.1 microns if I am going to spend the $. (Spores will strain at 0.2 microns, but mycotoxins can be as small as 0.1 microns). But I need to do some reading and make sure I am not straining out goodies at that size, and if so which ones, etc.

I hope that made sense. Sorry, long day.

(FYI will be PM'ing you soon with a few questions about pancreas gremlins)

Thanks amberevil, I have been all over the place on several projects, and having someone I respect make sure I didn't lose my way or open a gaping hole (as I am known to do) is VERY appreciated.

Peace!
 
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