Discontinued Zion vaporizer

Shit Snacks said:

Are you using a 18mm male to male adapter as a stem for the water connection

Click to expand...

You got it. Just like with the lsv.

Thank you @stickstones

You have certainly given us something to tide us over . . .

It sounds like objective positivity (although possibly alcohol induced) to me. So far, So good.

Concerns raised & noted.

I look forward to the next installment

t-dub said:

Depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If the Leidenfrost effect is your goal I would stick to at least 800 if not a little higher. This is what the VB2 does and combined with medical grade ceramic offers the most civilized dab I have ever had.

Click to expand...

OK thanks. I trying to decide if should do low $ unit. It would basically be balls out unregulated battery power with limited electronics that would just run the temp from like 1200 (red hot) down to like 700 or 800 as the battery dies. I think I could do it for around a $100 retail... else I but the full boat Zion control in her... fully controlled temperature but that will drive the cost up to the Zion range. I am committed to doing the full temp control unit... just playing around and seeing if I can land a product @ or near the magical $100 mark ya know?

stickstones said:

So far I have found three things I thought deserving of feedback:
1 -- improving the temperature control. The knob goes from approximately 8 to 4. But most of the temp control is between 12 and 2. We need to smooth out the response so that you can feel temp adjustments across the entire spectrum of 8 to 4.
2 -- throat irritation. At the higher temps I was getting some irritation that I usually associate with a vape that doesn't have an adequate air path after the bowl. See the MiniVap thread for an example. Through my bubbler I get no irritation, but through the supplied mouthpiece it is a little on the harsh side. This is not an issue at the lower to mid temps, just the highest temps.
3 -- Adhesives. The beta unit has adhesives in the air path that don't appear to be a concern based on other manufacturing uses, and it's not the only vape on the market with high temp adhesives in the air path (Herbalizer). But I know you guys, and this forum prefers air paths without adhesives, so we discussed alternatives.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback it is much appreciated. I should have listened to Mr. Peanut when he said he liked the vape signature in 2x4 1 better than 2x4 number 2... that is where I made the change to put more top end in the Zion (aka hotter more powerful heater)... here is where more power is Not better. Guess I went overboard but the combustors love it lol to each his own (plug: customed tuned heater units) I now know the variables that I can tune, heater internal geometry, variable resistance and fixed resistance. I need to spend some time optimizing but know that I can fix the temperature issue which should lead to less throat irritation. I will set up better instrumentation in the lab once I start to generate some revenue. Night now my thermal couples can't keep up with the Zion's rate of change as they have to much thermal lag. Really just starting to tame this wild breast.

Now for the adhesive, I have two designs in mind. One is totally glue-less but retires entirely on fit to seal the heater and friction to stay in place. This worries me as the heater screen has ABV fall on it and get stuck in the corners and typically needs removing with a tool. this could dislodge the screen. The small gap around the outer diameter could lead to fine ABV entering the heater compartment and that taste bad

My second design would be the same as above but add a ring of adhesive trapped between the screen ring and the heater housing thereby blinding it from the flow stream.

I personally would add the adhesive. I have used the following adhesive in bio-medical applications where this was submerged in drug fluids, removed, steamed, and autoclaved at 450 F and reused continually with no issue. It is fully FDA approved and tested and Masterbond is the best in the game.

http://www.masterbond.com/tds/ep42ht-2fg

So what do you guys think?... let the crowd-braining begin.

Please Post your thoughts on what is OK and Not OK in the flow path

@MrPeanut I am going to need your assistance doing a large volume of heater optimization testing this week

Hmmmm . . . . from checking out the specifications through your link to MasterBond, and from the way you are describing your application of the adhesive - "blinding it from the flow stream" - I feel that I would likely be happy with your second solution.

Friction fit sounds great & wholly matches the natural form & feeling that the unit is taking. However, if this has more potential to lead to problems down the road then I would agree with you RBT, & think that a small amount of adhesive, providing that it is not in direct contact with the air/vapor path, would be preferable.

. . . Actually, looking at it a bit more, I would just like clarification regarding temps.
I see from the spec that the maximum serviceable temperature for the EP42HT-2FG adhesive is 450f/232c.
At what temperature does the Zion max out? I realise the number will not be as high but I would like to know just how close they get.

Although the adhesive would not actually be in the air/vapor path it does sound as if off-gassing into this pathway could be possible if the required conditions were met.

Is my assumption correct, or have I just got a bit confoozed & overly cautious? Can you ease my mind @RastaBuddhaTao?

Pick pick pick eh?!


Keep On Zion

stickstones said:

There you have it....my impressions after five bowls. Do I think you are going to want this one? Yes. Is it ready for prime time today? No. But that's why we beta test shit. My unit is a very rough cut, which stokes me. It tells me that I have one in time to give feedback that actually makes a difference.

Click to expand...

Did you try a whole nug? How did it vape? How well exhausted was it. Were you stirring?

You said it was harsh at high temps and compared it to the minivap. How does it compare to other relatively short stems like the Lotus? Or the Crafty?

If we have gotten the impression that startup is instant, is that the wrong impression? You compared it to the MFLB. I haven't used that device. How fast is the Zion?

Is cool down as rapid as has been described?

@RastaBuddhaTao id pay more for adjustable temp on a concentrate unit, but that's just me, I like low temp dabs

@stickstones can we get some abv shots perhaps? I too would also like to know if you tried the whole nug method. I'm also curious about what the max load is. That is to say, how much could you fit inside (ground or whole) and still have the Zion perform well. Like if you wanted to pass it around a group of friends.

cybrguy said:

If we have gotten the impression that startup is instant, is that the wrong impression? You compared it to the MFLB. I haven't used that device. How fast is the Zion?

Click to expand...

@cybrguy - the comparison @stickstones has drawn is a good one in my eyes as the Launch Box provides almost instantaneous on/off heat.

I used whole nugs in all five bowls and crumbled after a few hits. It hits like any other vape with nugs...tasty and wispy at first, then thickening a little, with full blown clouds after the crumble. My unit runs on the high side, and I go there, so all the loads were completely spent. I didn't bother stirring.

I haven't tried a Crafty or the short stem for the Lotus, but I've never had a problem with the Lotus getting harsh. I wouldn't sweat the harsh comment on my part...this unit is far from what the next round of beta units will be like with regard to temp control. Once it's smoothed out and lowered I expect the harshness to subside, but other beta testers will have to confirm this.

It heats up from cold to hitting hard in about five seconds at the most. For most of my draws, I hit it slowly for about one to two seconds until I feel the heat kick in and then I give it a good draw. I have also been drawing for a good second or two after releasing the button as it cools. The mflb has long been the quickest vape to get to temp, and this one just about matches it. Only once it gets there you can huff on it and get big hits.

As to load size, that is adjustable in the current setup , as the stems are like log vapes with the sliding basket screens. You could position them deeper for bigger loads, but I don't know how much you can put in before you are too far from the heater.

I'll get some abv shots in a few days. Last night I combusted with her (I was trying to see how hot she could get) and smoked up a nice, full hemp filter, so I kept on trucking with the filter. That filter will probably get me through the night, so abv won't be around tonight!

stickstones said:

Last night I combusted with her (I was trying to see how hot she could get)

Click to expand...

How well-regulated is the heat? Did you have to turn up the dial and try to combust, or could it happen by accident on a lower setting if you keep holding the button and draw really slowly or something?

No. I had to work at it with the heat on high and very little draw with spent material.

Plus mine runs hot and they are going to cap the upper temp a little lower.

t-dub said:

Depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If the Leidenfrost effect is your goal I would stick to at least 800 if not a little higher. This is what the VB2 does and combined with medical grade ceramic offers the most civilized dab I have ever had.

Click to expand...

Leidenfrost temp... That vary amongst concentrate? Seems like a fun phenomena to test with variable temperature? What's to hot ? Apparently at around 1200 F it combust into open flame... Just found that out lol

Pretty cool to watch it boil and then vaporize

RastaBuddhaTao said:

Leidenfrost temp... That vary amongst concentrate? Seems like a fun phenomena to test with variable temperature? What's to hot ? Apparently at around 1200 F it combust into open flame... Just found that out lol

Pretty cool to watch it boil and then vaporize

Click to expand...

Yeah its interesting that the dab sizzles and boils off on a layer of itself essentially. For a low profile vape this means no wick or porous ceramic rod with a coil. You are gong to have to get creative, I wish you luck.

t-dub said:

Yeah its interesting that the dab sizzles and boils off on a layer of itself essentially. For a low profile vape this means no wick or porous ceramic rod with a coil. You are gong to have to get creative, I wish you luck.

Click to expand...

Loosing the gong on the stealth unit. Anyone have objection to wood as a flow path? What about mica insulators? My guess is yes on the wood and no on the mica lol.

So what's the temp limits on a stealth dab stabber? 800 to say 1000F? Looking for the "punch you in the face" temp range.

feed me knowledge FCcccc

RastaBuddhaTao said:

Loosing the gong on the stealth unit. Anyone have objection to wood as a flow path? What about mica insulators? My guess is yes on the wood and no on the mica lol.

So what's the temp limits on a stealth dab stabber? 800 to say 1000F? Looking for the "punch you in the face" temp range.

feed me knowledge FCcccc

Click to expand...

IIRC the Vapman butane vape has a model with mica insulators.

You need to find the happy medium between punch and flavor. Flavor is very important. I want to taste my concentrate. Not burned "too hot nail hit" flavor.
My enail is set just under 600F right now.

Why lose the Gong? It is my preferred way to use my air, and before my solo... And the air is not that big, I do not know how small you guys are aiming for, but losing the Gong might not be the best idea... How about sizing it down to 14mm?

About the wood in the airpath... I think in the long run that will become hard to get clean?

I would say try to stick to glass. My two cents...

And yes, it is a thin line between a tasty Dab and a nasty burn... I think even personal preferences will come into play with that so variable temp is the easy to go if you ask me...

Oeps, sorry, let's stay on the Zion track hihi

DieHard said:

IIRC the Vapman butane vape has a model with mica insulators.

You need to find the happy medium between punch and flavor. Flavor is very important. I want to taste my concentrate. Not burned "too hot nail hit" flavor.
My enail is set just under 600F right now.

Click to expand...

So for a low $ option I would let it drift from a high temp and let the temp drop with unregulated battery voltage and then have the battery cut out at the low temp. The only control you would have would be fluttering the fire button. So really looking for for tolerable temperature extremes.

Basically think of it as a MFLB for dab (I can say that right mods?)

If you go variable temp you will never get the Leidenfrost effect to work and keep the dab from burning. It needs a certain amount of heat and a proper platform. It will never work with a wick or anything like that. Not sure it can truly be done in a portable. Gravity will come into play here as well. You might be best off with a porous medical grade ceramic rod and coil like the VB Eleven OR you could do something like the Thermovape DART . . .

I'm with @DieHard 500-700f is my temp range for dabbing. Shoot, dabs through my herbalizer at 445f are still some of my favorite, decent clouds, great effects, and flaaaavor for daaaaaaays

I second the notion that i would pony up the cash for the regulated and adjustable concentrate device. Pull out all stops, and i will slap down the money. IMO no need to hold back.

Wow thanks for the killer feedback. Trust me regulated full temperature control is guaranteed... Dab equivalent to the Zion except single battery With USB etc will be our flagship dab.

What I am discussing now is just looking to land something in that $100 price range. Basically our bottom end product. Basically I am trying to help the poor souls that try to use a tiny coil down in a hole. Something none of you would really be interested in . But you are still the experts and therefore it is still your wisdom I seek.

I'm just killing time until the material for the glueless Zion heater screen get here tomorrow lol... Just exploring my minimalist philosophy... I truely appeciate the sheer simplicity of the MFLB... I spent days studying there patent and it's citations.

I don't think I'm selling out , just trying to pay the bills so I can design ultra cool high end gear

@stickstones thanks for letting us know what the Zion is like. Can you post up any videos of it in action? Can't wait to get mine!

Well no more dab dreamin' for me. Next day Fed-ex Tracking says proto material will be here soon... back to work on the Zion adhesive-less design today.

Just wanted to mention Iron Lion Zion by Bob Marley just came onto my playlist and i immediately and compulsively checked this thread for updates. That is all.

Yep @IAmKrazy2, that ones bin spinning round my head for weeks now

Well, we can't just simply mention it now can we? . . . (no we can't!)

Respect.

That song is the inspiration for the name... Rasta is a tribute to Bob. Following that pattern anyone care to guess the name of the second release?