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next generation e-nails?

VoltageKeeper

Well-Known Member
Accessory Maker
so. speaking of next-gen stuff....

how would people feel about a battery-powered nail? It would still use 16mm/20mm/flat style coils, but they would be special DC versions of those coils (the 24v DC versions as seen on gimido and some other sites). is there any serious interest in something like this? I've seen some other battery nails, but nearly none of them use regular coils, and most are some kind of weird/non-standard thing. This wouldn't be that, you'd be able to use your existing nails.

I've already done a bunch of research on it, and I can totally make this happen, but the price is gonna be a huge factor. It's nearly $300-350 in parts alone, none the less labor and construction and all that fun, so the final sale price would likely be in the $500-600 range. The controller will also obviously be a bit bigger than a typical controller, and would likely have 6 to 12 18650 batteries inside of it and an external charger / power pack to drive the whole thing.

The only reason I haven't just gone and built it now is that the initial investment cost is higher than I want to spend - I'd have to build at least two of them to make it worth while and it's hard for me to justify $600-700+ in parts without any buyers.
 

xRUFUSx

special like everyone else
@syrupy Could you share the wiring diagram of the omron relay timer you installed? (Maybe just the bit provided by gimido) I'd like to make a circuit that can reset the safety-off timer with a momentary switch, but I need to understand that timer better I think. An LED that flashes for a few seconds before powering off would be epic too.

The datasheet for the Omron H3Y relay timer seems to indicate this is possible in the timing chart (bottom page 4), but I'm unsure of how to use that potential. The H3YN has DIP switches for "operating modes" and pins for start, reset, and pause, but it's 4x more money, which I might spend if the solution to using the cheaper timer (as described previously) isn't way over my head.

I'm among the many stoner DIYers bleeding on the arduino learning curve, enticed by (recently by the DIY enail bug) the aspect of freedom once conquered. The main arduino tutorials, and DIY coffee roaster and soldering iron build logs are my best sources for now. No real experience yet programming.
 
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xRUFUSx,

farscaper

Well-Known Member
11024118_1563273947276460_769102925_n.jpg


back in action!!!:razz:
 

syrupy

Authorized Buyer
@syrupy Could you share the wiring diagram of the omron relay timer you installed? (Maybe just the bit provided by gimido) I'd like to make a circuit that can reset the safety-off timer with a momentary switch, but I need to understand that timer better I think. An LED that flashes for a few seconds before powering off would be epic too.

I ended up taking the Omron timer out. Does your PID provide steady 12v supply? Some just pulse and the timer won't like that. Currently I have a separate 12v in power line testing with an arduino pro mini and relay. I actually like the arduino solution better because adding LEDs and other goodies is much easier in the long run. Lemme know if you need help with the programming part. That I can do.

If it's just the timer function, it might be just as cheap and easier to get one of those timer outlets and plug the e-nail into that. But I like to reinvent the wheel as much as possible, so arduino is my thing. ;)
 

xRUFUSx

special like everyone else
I ended up taking the Omron timer out. Does your PID provide steady 12v supply? Some just pulse and the timer won't like that. Currently I have a separate 12v in power line testing with an arduino pro mini and relay. I actually like the arduino solution better because adding LEDs and other goodies is much easier in the long run. Lemme know if you need help with the programming part. That I can do.

If it's just the timer function, it might be just as cheap and easier to get one of those timer outlets and plug the e-nail into that. But I like to reinvent the wheel as much as possible, so arduino is my thing. ;)
I have the XMT7100 110VAC... in an aliexpress shopping cart. Building mine on paper first, ordering as soon as I make a few more decisions, like the timer.
The pulse I mean is the cycling on/off of the timer, and some diagrams show gates/switches between some pins to act as a timer start/reset, but I can't find it... didn't know what I was looking at at the time. Chrome history doesn't track google images :(

But yeah if I was capable with the arduino this logic would be easy. I have some due diligence ahead of me before I start bombarding you with super newb questions. Like physically going through the blinky LED tutorials with my board I don't own yet. These are all whiteboard ideas for me so I'm trying not to cry wolf with a bunch of retarded questions just yet, though I have many hah. For now I'm going to buy the parts for a '1st gen' diy rig and learn arduino at w/e pace I can.

Once I get there I may shoot you my shopping list for feedback. Been clawing at the surface of this for a while, actual feedback is amazing. Muchas gracias!
 
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VoltageKeeper

Well-Known Member
Accessory Maker
BTW, what temp are people running their domeless.com w/the new carb cap at ? I've been using it at 650f but I can't help but feel it might be slightly too hot.
 
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BoogerMan

Well-Known Member
BTW, what temp are people running their domeless.com w/the new carb cap at ? I've been using it at 650f but I can't help but feel it might be slightly too hot.
Are you using a flat coil or barrel coil?

The domeless.com flat coil heater runs at a max temp of 600F so if you're using a flat coil I'd say around 600-650F should be good.

If running a barrel coil, it needs to be a little hotter, around 680-700F is what I've found to be best with my 20mm coil :2c:
 

VoltageKeeper

Well-Known Member
Accessory Maker
oh really? I'm using flat coil, so 650f is indeed too hot then...I had already reduced to 625f, so most people are using 600f then? No wonder I thought it was too hot...I have a tendency to start too hot and work my way down when I get a new nail...I'm used to using my flat coil @ 750f on my genesis, 600f is more like what I run my quartz bangers at, historically they've been one of the most efficient designs i've tried in terms of lowest-temperature-possible...but this thing is giving them a run for the money. It would seem that this is indeed more efficient temperature-wise than my other ceramic nail (which is 20mm barrel style, but it's a different brand.) I did have to run that one a bit hotter as you said.

I'm really liking the heat-chamber effect this thing gives with that carb cap. I've noticed that if i inhale and try to lift off the carb cap, there's significant suction trying to keep it on there, it really seems to ensure that the air is only coming from the hole in the carb cap, which I rather like.

I'd be curious if there's actually a difference in performance on flat vs barrel style on the same brand of nail. My two ceramic nails are two different brands so I can't really compare like-for-like, but I tend to think it's a good thing when you can get the same dab off an overall lower temperature, that makes me think the heat transfer is happening a lot more efficiently than on a nail which requires a higher temperature for the same effect. However, a larger heat mass may mean less temperature fluctuation after a dab, so I'm still not entirely sure which way to go on this one....I feel like the main thing i'm liking about this new setup more than anything is that magical carb cap, it definitely makes this setup a must-try for many, it was for me anyway, I couldn't resist it.
 

BoogerMan

Well-Known Member
oh really? I'm using flat coil, so 650f is indeed too hot then...I had already reduced to 625f, so most people are using 600f then? No wonder I thought it was too hot...I have a tendency to start too hot and work my way down when I get a new nail...I'm used to using my flat coil @ 750f on my genesis, 600f is more like what I run my quartz bangers at, historically they've been one of the most efficient designs i've tried in terms of lowest-temperature-possible...but this thing is giving them a run for the money. It would seem that this is indeed more efficient temperature-wise than my other ceramic nail (which is 20mm barrel style, but it's a different brand.) I did have to run that one a bit hotter as you said.

I'm really liking the heat-chamber effect this thing gives with that carb cap. I've noticed that if i inhale and try to lift off the carb cap, there's significant suction trying to keep it on there, it really seems to ensure that the air is only coming from the hole in the carb cap, which I rather like.

I'd be curious if there's actually a difference in performance on flat vs barrel style on the same brand of nail. My two ceramic nails are two different brands so I can't really compare like-for-like, but I tend to think it's a good thing when you can get the same dab off an overall lower temperature, that makes me think the heat transfer is happening a lot more efficiently than on a nail which requires a higher temperature for the same effect. However, a larger heat mass may mean less temperature fluctuation after a dab, so I'm still not entirely sure which way to go on this one....I feel like the main thing i'm liking about this new setup more than anything is that magical carb cap, it definitely makes this setup a must-try for many, it was for me anyway, I couldn't resist it.
I have 2 domeless.com ceramic nails with ceramic carb caps. One pairs with my 710 whip that uses the flat ceramic coil and runs at 600F. The other one pairs with my Gimido e-nail that uses the 20mm coil. I run this one at 680-700F. That temp seems very comparable to the 600F with the flat coil on the 710 whip.

So overall the flat coil seems more effient and can run at a lower temp.

Your other ceramic nail is the hive ceramic 20mm right? How do you like it. I was thinking about getting one to have 2 different ceramic nails but if it isn't worth it I'll just stick with the domeless.com nail. I feel like the domeless.com nail with ceramic carb cap is a hard setup to beat. And Darid from Domeless.com is redesigning some things that should be out soon hopefully so I'm excited for that :D
 
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VoltageKeeper

Well-Known Member
Accessory Maker
Ya, it seems your observation is very similar to mine then.

My other one is indeed the hive, I wouldn't say it's dramatically different in terms of function or anything, it's just the same situation where the barrel coil version has to run slightly hotter than the flat nail version.

I think the carb cap is the real winner here. I need to check if it fits on my hive still, that'd be an interesting combination if it did. I have a feeling it won't, though, as the hive is wider.

I think if you want a wider dish but can live without the carb cap, you might prefer the hive, otherwise the domeless w/the new carb cap is a really sick setup.

I'll try to report back later tonight as to what nails I have laying around that the ceramic cap fits on.
 

syrupy

Authorized Buyer
I have the XMT7100 110VAC... in an aliexpress shopping cart. Building mine on paper first, ordering as soon as I make a few more decisions, like the timer.
The pulse I mean is the cycling on/off of the timer, and some diagrams show gates/switches between some pins to act as a timer start/reset, but I can't find it... didn't know what I was looking at at the time. Chrome history doesn't track google images :(

But yeah if I was capable with the arduino this logic would be easy. I have some due diligence ahead of me before I start bombarding you with super newb questions. Like physically going through the blinky LED tutorials with my board I don't own yet. These are all whiteboard ideas for me so I'm trying not to cry wolf with a bunch of retarded questions just yet, though I have many hah. For now I'm going to buy the parts for a '1st gen' diy rig and learn arduino at w/e pace I can.

Once I get there I may shoot you my shopping list for feedback. Been clawing at the surface of this for a while, actual feedback is amazing. Muchas gracias!

I kind of loss interest in the timer part because Arduino will scale so much farther as far as function. I just saw a tutorial for an arduino-based coffee-maker that....get this... connects to the internet and make twitter posts about it! Ridiculous? Of course. I love it!

Arduino is way easy if you stick with it. You can even do everything with terminal shields (connectors you just screw wires into) and minimal soldering.

A few starter points:

1. Really, and I mean, really understand and practice basic safety around electrical current, especially your 110v AC.

2. Check out this link to Arduino power tutorial, which goes over how to control switching of power.
http://arduino-info.wikispaces.com/ArduinoPower

3. Don't stress the programming, it's mostly copying/pasting existing code and tweaking a little.

4. Start with the Uno board. It's big, maybe too big for your setup, but it's the easiest to program. Once it works, the same programming can run on a tinier ardiuno http://www.arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardProMini


I'm moving more back towards flowers from oil, and not intending to trick out my nail setup anytime soon. But if anyone has questions about diy upgrades/arduino I can chip in answers. If there's enough interest we can split that out into a different thread.
 

VoltageKeeper

Well-Known Member
Accessory Maker
so do you have arduino code for doing PID loops? Anything for doing fuzzy logic / predictive control? I was looking into using a controller with fuzzy logic abilities but most of them are $200-300 for the PID alone, arduino might be a cheaper way to get those more advanced control methods....

on the note regarding that ceramic carb cap - I tried it on my hive but as I suspected it wasn't big enough to fit. I tried it on a titanium dualti-style nail and it fit but was loose.
 

syrupy

Authorized Buyer
so do you have arduino code for doing PID loops? Anything for doing fuzzy logic / predictive control? I was looking into using a controller with fuzzy logic abilities but most of them are $200-300 for the PID alone, arduino might be a cheaper way to get those more advanced control methods....

on the note regarding that ceramic carb cap - I tried it on my hive but as I suspected it wasn't big enough to fit. I tried it on a titanium dualti-style nail and it fit but was loose.

Do you mean using the arduino to control the PID? Or making a PID out of the arduino? It seems like an arduino could do all that, just a matter of what are the math calculations, and the 100-200 watt coils I see are well within what an arduino can switch. The part that's least clear is how to get the processor to read the temps to know when to kick on and off. I know they make k-type probes for arduino, but shouldn't that be able to be read straight from the coil?

Lots of unknowns, but I think the microcontrollers are the way to go. How easy to have a service clock that counts hours of use, or stores multiple and custom PID profiles, or............
 
syrupy,

xRUFUSx

special like everyone else
Do you mean using the arduino to control the PID? Or making a PID out of the arduino? It seems like an arduino could do all that, just a matter of what are the math calculations, and the 100-200 watt coils I see are well within what an arduino can switch. The part that's least clear is how to get the processor to read the temps to know when to kick on and off. I know they make k-type probes for arduino, but shouldn't that be able to be read straight from the coil?

Lots of unknowns, but I think the microcontrollers are the way to go. How easy to have a service clock that counts hours of use, or stores multiple and custom PID profiles, or............
Some brand new (to me) knowledge that hopefully I'm not botching:
Any thermocouple will provide a given difference in voltage per degree celsius between it's hot and cold contacts. The Arduino does the math to interpret the data as temp (simple arithmetic) and the PID logic (calculus?) for prediction/compensation feedback. You can change the thermocouple type by changing one factor in the math. I think the K type is 30mv per degree or something.

The AD595 chip ($6-$10 on aliexpress) converts the thermocouple's voltage to 5v and viceversa for communication with the arduino and provides cold compensation (otherwise any cold side temp fluctuation will affect accuracy). There's more than one solution for this, but this is out of my league so I don't know how to generate them. One is mentioned here. I'm Laughmore, double posted to try to keep the thread alive.. oh well.

If "cold side" is an unfamiliar term, the wiki on thermocouples can explain it better than me. Ready-made PID controllers take care of it so the concept is off the radar of enail DIYers I think, I'm only barely learning about it now.
 
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VoltageKeeper

Well-Known Member
Accessory Maker
Yeah, I mean making a PID out of the arduino, something that can do proper control loops. A simple on/off control when it hits a particular temperature, while it might work, isn't going to be great, and certainly will not be a greater product than a proper PID, or something fancier than a PID.

On/off style control, if you graphed the temperature, it wouldn't be a stable straight line at that temperature, rather it'd be a big oscillation, as it would turn the heater on as the temperature drops below the set value, and only turn off once it's passed it. A PID will more accurately predict the change that the heater will make to the temperature and will basically kind of "pulsate" the heater on and off just the right amount to keep it stable.

For PID's, the PID actually stands for the 3 parameters that are used to adjust for the curves of the loop, as well as basically to set the responsiveness to the heater, so it basically knows just how much heat to apply for a given temperature differential. To write that code, I'd need a much better understanding of calculus I'm afraid, but I am now better starting to understand some of the principals behind it. I would almost think someone must have written PID code for arduino already though, it just seems far too common of a use case, given the arduino is practically a PLC to begin with.

The hard part about PID programming is trying to account for unexpected occurrences in your otherwise normal heating/heat-loss loop. In our use cases, that's basically taking a dab. There's going to be a typical amount of heat loss to the environment that the PID is normally accounting for to keep it stable, so to further account for the addition instability of taking a dab may mean making the whole process slightly more unstable, to account for that shorter period of instability, all the while keeping the average stability within reason. It's a balancing act, essentially.

The next kind of PID beyond the traditional 3-value PID controllers are fuzzy-logic based PID's. That's a whole different game that I've barely even got into reading about, but the notion of fuzzy logic is that it can better predict what to do when something unexpected happens.

http://www.mstarlabs.com/control/fuzzypid.html

Haha, I like this quote from that article

"We intend to show that, given any well-tuned PID controller, it is always possible to configure a fuzzy logic controller that is no more complex, but never less effective. (There you go, a carefully worded claim that is at least as misleading as the hype that you will find in the trade mags, as we will soon show.) If a PID controller's performance is not quite acceptable, perhaps this can serve as a first step toward performance improvements."

Basically, it's hard for fuzzy logic to be any worse than a PID, and at best, it can be a lot better. It's all just different algorithms for trying to keep that line on the graph straight as an arrow.

Needless to say, if someone wants to spend $500-600 on a enail, I could build one with an off-the-shelf fuzzy logic controller in it, they are literally $250-300 for the PID alone. It's probably the main reason that as far as I know, no one has done it yet. There's a few companies using $100-150 PID's, but they are often really no better than a $35 one when it comes to the internal PID algorithms being used to control the heat. And in my case, the fuzzy logic controllers that did have those fancier algorithms were just too expensive to justify, even for my own amusement, but if we could do something with an arduino for a lot cheaper, well, that's a really interesting proposal all of the sudden....

Also worth noting, some of these more expensive PID's do support things like multiple profiles, the one I have used in my controller, which cost around $85, has this feature in fact. I'd just be happy to come up with one single set of values I'm happy with! I'm realizing that each nail and coil can sort of have their own sweet spots, so I need to find that "middle ground" so to speak. The possibility to have a separate "barrel coil" profile and a "flat coil" profile may result in slightly more stable temperatures profiles for each.

As far as I know, most of these types of probes are basically just resistance-based, measuring the resistance through a piece of wire kind of thing. There is likely a formula and/or big chart of known values for a given temperature, I suspect this would be easier to do than you think, although there may possibly need to be some circuitry around it to convert it to values that are usable to the arduino. I have no doubt I could make that work and convert the values to something usable to the code, I'd be much more concerned about the control loop logic side of things, while I am a programmer, I am not an expert at calculus.

I'd probably still prefer to use a solid state relay unless there's a reason to directly use the arduino to switch it? Do the arduinos have a built in relay or something? The nice thing about SSR's is they're optically isolated and have no mechanical parts. Also, with traditional PID based controllers, it's often flipping the coil on and off constantly, you wouldn't want to use a traditionally magnetic relay as it would likely wear out extremely fast with that sort of use.

Phew, that was long, I hope that all made sense.

Some brand new (to me) knowledge that hopefully I'm not botching:
Any thermocouple will provide a given difference in voltage per degree celsius between it's hot and cold contacts. The Arduino does the math to interpret the data as temp (simple arithmetic) and the PID logic (calculus?) for prediction/compensation feedback. You can change the thermocouple type by changing one factor in the math. I think the K type is 30mv per degree or something.

The AD595 chip ($6-$10 on aliexpress) converts the thermocouple's voltage to 5v and viceversa for communication with the arduino and provides cold compensation (otherwise any cold side temp fluctuation will affect accuracy). There's more than one solution for this, but this is out of my league so I don't know how to generate them. One is mentioned here. I'm Laughmore, double posted to try to keep the thread alive.. oh well.

If "cold side" is an unfamiliar term, the wiki on thermocouples can explain it better than me. Ready-made PID controllers take care of it so the concept is off the radar of enail DIYers I think, I'm only barely learning about it now.

Sounds like you and I have been learning about similar stuff lately....

I knew those probes had some set variance of voltage or resistance per-degree or something like that! I hadn't bothered to look it up yet, but I was pretty sure it followed some fairly simple formula that wouldn't be too hard to convert one way or another. It figures someone's already made a thing to attach directly to the arduino, they've probably been used to do this many times over already in other applications.

The real question now is whether there's code out there to do anything fancier than simple PID style control, like a fuzzy logic algorithm or etc....otherwise we'd just be re-inventing the wheel and building glorified PID's out of arduinos, which, might give you some cool extra features, like shut off timers and dab counters, but probably isn't going to really change how it performs in terms of keeping the temperature more stable than any other sub-$200 PID. You only get into fuzzy logic PID's once you seem to pass that $200-300 price tag on the PID itself, and I've still yet to see an enail manufacturer use one, I imagine the cost for the fuzzy logic controllers are just prohibitively expensive, and I imagine such a product would cost atleast $600...If we can do that with an arduino at a fraction of the cost, then I think it's a huge game changer.
 
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xRUFUSx

special like everyone else
The arduino can't do the switching because it's meant to control tiny voltages. The SSR switches high current, which is triggered by smaller voltages (arduino or chip).

Honestly, I've yet to see PID accuracy (for 420 application) as a big enough problem to drive DIYers to a more sophisticated (expensive) solution. I'm an idealist as well, so I'm interested, but I think a well tuned PID with a properly powered coil and thermally efficient nail will not leave one wanting for better stability.

Now that that's out of the way, I want a fuzzy logic controller now too, thanks to you lol
 
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VoltageKeeper

Well-Known Member
Accessory Maker
Great stuff guys!

Arduino PID code

I'm assuming the math for more advanced pid is kept secret from scoundrels like us.

Ah, so that is the traditional PID code right there! It seems fuzzy code may be possible too, check this out, this guy made a fuzzy-logic controlled heating urn with arduino:

http://www.hownottoengineer.com/projects/fuzzy-urn.html

I can't imagine what he's doing should be all that much different from a enail in terms of the arduino code, so it seem a fuzzy-logic arduino based temperature controller may be a real possibility...
 

VoltageKeeper

Well-Known Member
Accessory Maker
Now that that's out of the way, I want a fuzzy logic controller now too, thanks to you lol

Lol, I'll gladly point you to a few if you'd like to see what I'm talking about...the one I wanted was like $250...There's entire enail rigs that cost less than that, haha.

As for tuning the PID on your PC - that's exactly what I've been doing with mine. It's not an arduino though, you just need a PID with a serial interface. However, it's not always as easy as it seems I'm afraid...though that interface does look pretty damn sexy compared to what I'm working with right now!
 

mixchu69

Well-Known Member
Ya, it seems your observation is very similar to mine then.

My other one is indeed the hive, I wouldn't say it's dramatically different in terms of function or anything, it's just the same situation where the barrel coil version has to run slightly hotter than the flat nail version.

I think the carb cap is the real winner here. I need to check if it fits on my hive still, that'd be an interesting combination if it did. I have a feeling it won't, though, as the hive is wider.

I think if you want a wider dish but can live without the carb cap, you might prefer the hive, otherwise the domeless w/the new carb cap is a really sick setup.

I'll try to report back later tonight as to what nails I have laying around that the ceramic cap fits on.
I'm glad to hear that. Once I busted out my new analog Dnail with hive ceramic, I dropped it and the hive broke at the threads, everything else survived, even my vb bubbler. I am glad there is not much difference with domeless.com ceramic and hive because the domeless and carb cap should be coming in tomorrow.

Edit. I just realized I posted this on the last page. Herbie is really messing me up. This morning, I was writing a comment on the minivap, but it was on the LSV thread. Love it!!!!!
 

Monsoon

Well-Known Member
Ya, it seems your observation is very similar to mine then.

My other one is indeed the hive, I wouldn't say it's dramatically different in terms of function or anything, it's just the same situation where the barrel coil version has to run slightly hotter than the flat nail version.

I think the carb cap is the real winner here. I need to check if it fits on my hive still, that'd be an interesting combination if it did. I have a feeling it won't, though, as the hive is wider.

I think if you want a wider dish but can live without the carb cap, you might prefer the hive, otherwise the domeless w/the new carb cap is a really sick setup.

I'll try to report back later tonight as to what nails I have laying around that the ceramic cap fits on.
I'd also be curious to know how the airflow compares between the Hive and the Domeless nails. I found the Domeless one to be a bit too restrictive in airflow for me so I'm wondering if the Hive will be any better.

----
Edit: Just saw this posted on D-Nail's feed, they're releasing a nectar collector tip adapted for e-nail use and a special coil. Coil and tip alone are $250 (glass sold separately), pricey but cool to see as an option.

http://www.d-nail.com/product-p/z-preorder-nc.htm
Z-PREORDER-NC-2T.jpg
 
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VoltageKeeper

Well-Known Member
Accessory Maker
hmm, looks like a 10mm coil bent up at the end.

I shouldn't even comment on the shape of that other piece, LOL. It's a cool idea though. I do have a nectar collector style rig, I was hoping to NOT have a reason to buy a 10mm coil...haha. I might have one now.

You know, I didn't even think of that. See for yourself:

ceramics.jpg

ceramics2.jpg


The hive definitely has a larger center hole. The two pieces on the the top and right. The domeless which is on the left is the same width all the way through regardless, as the joint adapter goes around it, rather than inside of it. The hive narrows only at the top, but the hole in the narrow part is slightly bigger than the domeless, so if you wanted the best airflow, you'd probably want to consider the hive.
 
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xRUFUSx

special like everyone else
Maybe old news now but I found that diagram to make the omron timer work how I wanted... need an isolation relay to interrupt timer's power supply.
2012-05-25_134741_pumpfanomron.gif

I think if I could bring it to life with a momentary switch in either configuration:

1.) Timer default on, user must reset
2.) Default off, user starts
3.) Both 1 & 2 (toggle switch)

If I can get the circuit wired for under $10 I'll put it in the 1st gen build I got going I think.
Edit: An SSR would work for isolation, still learning to figure out the best way...

Thoughts/ramblings: I wish the 3 hour version or multi version had the 21x25mm size. At $5, it's attractive, considering it could make the unit safer. The 21.5mm minimum dimension makes my goal of having a HDD form factor enail (1st gen) impossible however :( Love those cheap multi color skins...
 
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