This is your brain on drugs...

cybrguy

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
So, I tend to think of the human body as mostly a chemical/biological machine that against all odds seems to generally last, with near full function, for somewhere between 70 and 90 years. Now, I don't know how many things you have, made of much sturdier stuff, that have lasted nearly that long, but I have a chair and a table and that's it. Nothing with moving parts, nothing with rubber or other soft materials (the leather on the chair has been replaced) and certainly nothing biological. That makes the human body all the more remarkable for it's resilience, durability, and ability to adapt.

But none of the above considers the brain. We talk about things like the Space Shuttle, which for it's time was the most complicated machine on earth. Today that would probably be the Collider at CERN that is at the apex of complicated devices designed and built by man. But can even CERN hold a candle to the human brain? I think not. With all it's complication and detail and remarkable development it can still only do what it is told to do like a modern computer or even just an automobile. There is no creativity or unique creation or speculation going on at CERN, at least within the machine. And while it may help us find answers to some truly complicated and difficult and profound questions, it will not come up with the questions on it's own and it cannot decide the direction of the research. If you ask a question without providing enough data, there will be no ability to fill in the blanks with ideas and concepts not yet proven. For that we need a brain, and we are a loooooong way from building that in our labs.

I wonder sometimes how much the brain is like a machine. When it is working hard, does it create heat? It DOES seem to continue to develop into adulthood even while the vast majority of it's development occurs in it first few years. Yet all the way to the end of life for a properly functioning brain new memories can be saved and new decisions can be made and new idea can me created. Until it actually fails or stops being fed oxygen and blood from the rest of the body, the brain goes on, not only operating the rest of the body, but continuing to do those things that make it unique.

So, now it is 2015 and with all the knowledge we have accumulated and all the research we have done and all the ideas we have implemented and all the concepts we have relied on, why are we still so far from REALLY understanding the brain? Why are we still unable to make anything like it? I wonder if we ever will...
 
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Derrrpp

For the world is hollow and I have touched the sky
cybrguy said:
So, now it is 2015 and with all the knowledge we have accumulated and all the research we have done and all the ideas we have implemented and all the concepts we have relied on, why are we still so far from REALLY understanding the brain? Why are we still unable to make anything like it? I wonder if we ever will...
Click to expand...

Like you said, the human brain is an incredibly complex thing. I'm not sure if we'll ever truly understand it fully. But we DO know more about the brain now than we ever did before, and we continue to learn more with every passing year. This is truly an exciting day and age where we are expanding our knowledge and technology at an exponential rate. I can only imagine what the future has in store for us.

Hopefully we can get a good, thought provoking conversation here. I know I'm intrigued to hear what others have to say :)
 
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cybrguy

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
Not that the brain can't do some annoying things as well. I have had the theme song from "Welcome Back Kotter" running over and over in my head for over a week and I can't put it down. Meditation, listening to "real" music and singing other TV show theme songs (and commercials) hasn't fixed it yet...

Although I REALLY want some Keebler cookies about now... (Ohhhh, youuu never would believe...)
 
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Eschient

Eschient

Giga-Dweebess
I think it's relative. We have existed for such a minuscule amount of time in the grand scheme of things. 2 generations ago it was practically abandoning your family to move a couple hundred miles away, now we're damned near telepathic with how quickly and easily we can be in contact with someone on the other side of the country, the planet, the moon, the solar system {ok, we're not really talking to people on the last, just computers, but still.}

It wasn't so far back that the diagnosis for mental health issues were things like weak constitutions, demons, witches, curses, god, guilt, being female...and despite the general consensus that those are completely absurd, there still exist people all over the world who still believe such things. So I guess I find it more surprising that "suddenly" we're able to do things like grow living body parts in a lab from a handful of cells that we didn't even have the ability to see a few hundred years ago.

We are just now learning to watch the brain work, we're learning that we have the ability to manipulate how the brain works both from an emotional/psychological view and a physical perspective and I see that being a big hurdle for a long time. Buddhists and the like have been meditating for thousands of years and it is only now we are seeing that it's not just an emotional action, it has a physical impact on the brain's function, as well as physical and chemical makeup.

We can't think of the brain as a machine. It might work on the surface when you're talking about the general function of the different nodes of the brain and general synaptic response or chemical whosiwhatits, but that's only a little part of it. The brain is also home to our personal experiences and emotions. It's our conditioning and personality and we barely have the crudest of means to manipulate or duplicate that. Even at that point, being able to manipulate something doesn't mean you have understanding or mastery over it. A great forger can make a perfect copy of a masterpiece, but how could that possibly compare to the vision, passion, need and devotion that the master put in to bring that perfect original image out of his/her mind/soul and present it to eternity? We aren't even students yet, we're toddlers running around with some chewed up crayons, drawing on walls.


Now I need to crank up the E-nano again. All those $2 words required too much concentration to spell-check and now my brain wants to chat with me instead of sleep. :zzz: :razz: :tinfoil: :myday: :|:rockon::mad: :mental::rant::lmao: :bang: ;pd; :mmmm:
 
F

farscaper

Well-Known Member
the brain only seems complicated until you really look at how its designed... the human brain is a computer... and organic computer.

Some like to note that humans only use a small percentage of the brains capacity... but have you ever seen a computer using 100% of its hard drive space for programming and function? no.

most use a vast majority of its space as an information receptacle.

but our brains have processors, the equivalent of a modem through our sensor array.

but the brain can also contract viruses... the brain can be damaged.... the hard drive can be fried and the wiring [nerves] can be scorched....

just because its an awesome machine... doesnt mean its the most amazing machine ever created.... still has a decay rate.... our bodies wear out and everything moves on....

so what do you think happens to the data?

where does the info go?

perhaps at that point we are uploaded to a wifi network and the information is moved to a new pc with an upgraded processor and new shiny hardware!

or maybe like the 3 laptops in my closet that information just sits.... all those memories... all that data.... fried... locked in a hard drive with no way to access it?

wtf?
 
Solomon

Solomon

Talk to the Beard
Not so sure that artificial intelligence is that far off. Many scientists believe we will have AI that is more intelligent than the human brain in our lifetime.

This is a really good article that gives one of the most thorough reviews of the AI and coming "singularity" event.

(Warning, it starts off slow and then becomes quite scary...)

http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/01/artificial-intelligence-revolution-1.html

---------------

On another point that @farscaper just made about information loss, I think he's correct about the "data". Physics and our understanding of the universe contends that no information is ever lost. Any and every event can be "re-wound" and the series of events and causes can be explained by prior events and causes. Time running backwards follows the same exact rules as forwards. So everything in the universe - every atom, every star, and every galaxy - can be explained if we just have enough information to accurately back-track prior events. So if we could track all the matter and energy left by an exploded star, we could reconstruct the star.

Fundamentally, the brain must work the same way. If we could scan my brain right now in enough detail, we could not only see the ideas I am currently writing, but would see all of the individual neuron connections, electrical charges, and quantum states leading up to me writing this sentence. As a corollary, when I die, this information - which exists in some physical form as energy, charges, and quantum states of the matter that makes up my physical brain - transforms into another state of energy and matter.

Bottom-line, if there is anything at all "metaphysical" about the brain and human intelligence, we have no evidence of it. Just like everything else in the universe, the brain and it's functions exist in the physical universe and must follow the same physical laws.

One point in the article mentions the very real possibility that we will be able to scan a brain so completely that the "data" could be recorded, saved, and perhaps even transferred into another entity. This follows another law we have seen regarding evolution. Natural selection allows organisms to slowly change over time to adapt to changing conditions to assure survival. To do this, organisms must constantly reproduce to create these new natural variations.

But is that the only way to do it?

If an organism was able to sufficiently augment and accelerate evolutionary processes, natural selection through reproduction would become obsolete. There would be no need for an organism to reproduce as a way to adapt to environmental changes. Immortality would not only be possible, but a preferred adaptation.

Personally, I think the "super artificial intelligence" in our future will be a giant evolutionary leap, and may in fact be the "natural" direction of all intelligent species that survive past a certain level. Face it, unless a species can survive global apocalypse, it is destined for extinction, and natural selection by itself is insufficient.
 
F

farscaper

Well-Known Member
Solomon said:
Not so sure that artificial intelligence is that far off. Many scientists believe we will have AI that is more intelligent than the human brain in our lifetime.

This is a really good article that gives one of the most thorough reviews of the AI and coming "singularity" event.

(Warning, it starts off slow and then becomes quite scary...)

http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/01/artificial-intelligence-revolution-1.html

---------------

On another point that @farscaper just made about information loss, I think he's correct about the "data". Physics and our understanding of the universe contends that no information is ever lost. Any and every event can be "re-wound" and the series of events and causes can be explained by prior events and causes. Time running backwards follows the same exact rules as forwards. So everything in the universe - every atom, every star, and every galaxy - can be explained if we just have enough information to accurately back-track prior events. So if we could track all the matter and energy left by an exploded star, we could reconstruct the star.

Fundamentally, the brain must work the same way. If we could scan my brain right now in enough detail, we could not only see the ideas I am currently writing, but would see all of the individual neuron connections, electrical charges, and quantum states leading up to me writing this sentence. As a corollary, when I die, this information - which exists in some physical form as energy, charges, and quantum states of the matter that makes up my physical brain - transforms into another state of energy and matter.

Bottom-line, if there is anything at all "metaphysical" about the brain and human intelligence, we have no evidence of it. Just like everything else in the universe, the brain and it's functions exist in the physical universe and must follow the same physical laws.

One point in the article mentions the very real possibility that we will be able to scan a brain so completely that the "data" could be recorded, saved, and perhaps even transferred into another entity. This follows another law we have seen regarding evolution. Natural selection allows organisms to slowly change over time to adapt to changing conditions to assure survival. To do this, organisms must constantly reproduce to create these new natural variations.

But is that the only way to do it?

If an organism was able to sufficiently augment and accelerate evolutionary processes, natural selection through reproduction would become obsolete. There would be no need for an organism to reproduce as a way to adapt to environmental changes. Immortality would not only be possible, but a preferred adaptation.

Personally, I think the "super artificial intelligence" in our future will be a giant evolutionary leap, and may in fact be the "natural" direction of all intelligent species that survive past a certain level. Face it, unless a species can survive global apocalypse, it is destined for extinction, and natural selection by itself is insufficient.
Click to expand...
what if it required an entire universe inside your head full of galaxies and solar systems just to develop to the point of making a thought.

are we the stuff of someone elses brain...

waaaaaaay out there?
:whoa:
 
arf777

arf777

No longer dogless
farscaper said:
the brain only seems complicated until you really look at how its designed... the human brain is a computer... and organic computer.

Some like to note that humans only use a small percentage of the brains capacity... but have you ever seen a computer using 100% of its hard drive space for programming and function? no.

most use a vast majority of its space as an information receptacle.

but our brains have processors, the equivalent of a modem through our sensor array.

but the brain can also contract viruses... the brain can be damaged.... the hard drive can be fried and the wiring [nerves] can be scorched....

just because its an awesome machine... doesnt mean its the most amazing machine ever created.... still has a decay rate.... our bodies wear out and everything moves on....

so what do you think happens to the data?

where does the info go?

perhaps at that point we are uploaded to a wifi network and the information is moved to a new pc with an upgraded processor and new shiny hardware!

or maybe like the 3 laptops in my closet that information just sits.... all those memories... all that data.... fried... locked in a hard drive with no way to access it?

wtf?
Click to expand...

I gotta jump on some of this.

We do NOT only use a 'small percentage of our brain'. That is a complete myth, and has never been believed by actual neuroscience. Even the least intelligent people use their entire brain (though we may not use our brain as efficiently or for everything it can be used for, all the neurons are in fact firing, in a variety of patterns, unless you have brain damage). Even in sleep our motor control neurons are firing, there are just chemicals inhibiting the orders from reaching the muscles. Calorie burning studies proved this decades ago. I was horrified at the ad campaign for that stupid Scarlett Johansen- Morgan Freeman movie that reiterated the total bullshit that we 'only use 10% of our brain'. That has never had any empirical support. And IMHO, anyone who has consumed large amounts of psychedelics knows that is crap. Peyote definitely affects and invokes your whole brain. And we have discovered an entire separate neural network in the gut, and that is being busily deciphered- see the GI neural work coming out of Johns Hopkins in the last decade. Some folks may not use their entire potential, but that is not the same thing.

We are in fact much closer to fully understanding the brain than folks think. The major chemical signaling codes it uses have been identified and partially deciphered; all sorts of specific thought processes can be reliably induced with the proper (expensive and sometimes invasive) tech. We're even close to cracking the real relationship between genotype and brain phenotype with the recent discovery that cranial neurons use a re-edited form of the DNA the rest of the body uses.

But don't peg your hopes on 'the singularity'. If it ever does happen, it will no more be 'you' uploaded to a drive than it is your actual files being 'moved' to the cloud. Those are copies of your files, not the files themselves. Even when you move a computer file rather than copy, that is in fact a copy-and-delete operation.

If your memories are copied to a computer and then deleted from your brain (or your brain turned off) have you been 'moved' to the computer? IMO, no. A simulation of you maybe, but not you (and no I do not believe in the soul, i just know the difference between copying an moving). And even if it did somehow 'move' the data, you would no longer be connected to your gut-brain and the rest of your body - for instance, I worked for years as a chef and can French knife literally without thinking about it. A copy of my neural data would likely not have that skill. If a copy of 'me' can't French knife and does not have my palate, that is not me - ask anyone who knows me how important the culinary world is to who I am.
 
Scott A

Scott A

Well-Known Member
arf777 said:
I gotta jump on some of this.

We do NOT only use a 'small percentage of our brain'. That is a complete myth, and has never been believed by actual neuroscience. Even the least intelligent people use their entire brain (though we may not use our brain as efficiently or for everything it can be used for, all the neurons are in fact firing, in a variety of patterns, unless you have brain damage). Even in sleep our motor control neurons are firing, there are just chemicals inhibiting the orders from reaching the muscles. Calorie burning studies proved this decades ago. I was horrified at the ad campaign for that stupid Scarlett Johansen- Morgan Freeman movie that reiterated the total bullshit that we 'only use 10% of our brain'. That has never had any empirical support. And IMHO, anyone who has consumed large amounts of psychedelics knows that is crap. Peyote definitely affects and invokes your whole brain. And we have discovered an entire separate neural network in the gut, and that is being busily deciphered- see the GI neural work coming out of Johns Hopkins in the last decade. Some folks may not use their entire potential, but that is not the same thing.

We are in fact much closer to fully understanding the brain than folks think. The major chemical signaling codes it uses have been identified and partially deciphered; all sorts of specific thought processes can be reliably induced with the proper (expensive and sometimes invasive) tech. We're even close to cracking the real relationship between genotype and brain phenotype with the recent discovery that cranial neurons use a re-edited form of the DNA the rest of the body uses.

But don't peg your hopes on 'the singularity'. If it ever does happen, it will no more be 'you' uploaded to a drive than it is your actual files being 'moved' to the cloud. Those are copies of your files, not the files themselves. Even when you move a computer file rather than copy, that is in fact a copy-and-delete operation.

If your memories are copied to a computer and then deleted from your brain (or your brain turned off) have you been 'moved' to the computer? IMO, no. A simulation of you maybe, but not you (and no I do not believe in the soul, i just know the difference between copying an moving). And even if it did somehow 'move' the data, you would no longer be connected to your gut-brain and the rest of your body - for instance, I worked for years as a chef and can French knife literally without thinking about it. A copy of my neural data would likely not have that skill. If a copy of 'me' can't French knife and does not have my palate, that is not me - ask anyone who knows me how important the culinary world is to who I am.
Click to expand...
Thank you for correcting the false info here. I cringe when I hear the 'we only use a small part of your brain' crap. I recently watched a good Ted conference on brain theory that I think more people should watch. If I can find the link ill post it.

edit for link. Its an old Ted video but I liked it. http://www.ted.com/talks/jeff_hawkins_on_how_brain_science_will_change_computing?language=en#t-5899
 
Last edited:
Enchantre

Enchantre

Oil Painter
Brain is form. It will also be shed, along with mind, thought, and mental objects....

Part of my current occupation is Akashic Records Acquistion Specialist.. I'm doing my best to upload as much as I can, so I DON'T have to do "re-dos" next time....
 
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