Medicine stopped working for patient -- Any advice?

Pete Jones

Well-Known Member
Medical user has recently found that cannabis "doesn't feel good." The patient uses cannabis for a couple conditions, including a GI one. For several years, it was a "Godsend" providing unprecedented relief. Lately, however, even small amounts cause some discomfort (anxiety, than more tiredness than normal). Usually the "discomfort" subsides providing some medicinal effect (some increased appetite and diminishment of pain and queasiness). Use of an indica in the evening is ok, but not as appetite-stimulating as previously. The "head" part throughout is no longer pleasant. Patient only vapes dried flowers, daily for about four years, but about 1/3 ounce per month (probably never more than a 1/10 in a week).

I'm posting here in the hope that folks with knowledge, experienced or expertise may be able to help. I'll try to get answers to any questions that are relevant for diagnosis/advice. Many thanks.
 

DDave

Vape Wizard
Accessory Maker
I think more info is needed in order to comment. Strain types? Source of strains always the same? Trusted source? Vaporizer or method of consumption used?

Other contributing factors?
* Addition of meds
* Change of diet
* Added stressors in life

Easiest way to start identifying why something has changed, is to identify what other changes have taken place overall....

(will be back later tonight to check reply, but am pretty sure others will chime in)
 

Pete Jones

Well-Known Member
I think more info is needed in order to comment. Strain types? Source of strains always the same? Trusted source? Vaporizer or method of consumption used?

Other contributing factors?
* Addition of meds
* Change of diet
* Added stressors in life

DDave, thanks for your willingness to help. I'll answer what I can.

Strain types: High CBD occasionally; Indi-leaning hybrids generally; indica at night.
Method: Only vaporizer.
Yes, there has been an intro of a new cancer drug recently, but the timing does not match up precisely, and no interaction is known. No significant change in diet.
 

DDave

Vape Wizard
Accessory Maker
DDave, thanks for your willingness to help. I'll answer what I can.

Strain types: High CBD occasionally; Indi-leaning hybrids generally; indica at night.
Method: Only vaporizer.
Yes, there has been an intro of a new cancer drug recently, but the timing does not match up precisely, and no interaction is known. No significant change in diet.
Pete Jones, no sweat... glad to help where I can.

The High CBD strains are good... Indica dominant as well. Need more specifics, what are the strain names?

What is the Vaporizer? Name/Model/Version number?

Bingo - a change! New cancer drug! Chemo? Some chemo drugs are reported to cause Anxiety. What is the name of the new drug? What others are being used already?

No worries on the diet, for now. Let's hit the other three topics first.

Switch to edibles... RSO?

could be something like receptor fatigue? changing delivery method can revive effects. Perhaps the new drug is having a deeper effect than suspected?
Fully agree with @Enchantre about RSO! Though I've not taken it personally, as the required dosage builds up a huge tolerance level, I've read tons of info, personal accounts, etc... and faced with "the decision", I would try it first - or at least along side chemo.
 

Pete Jones

Well-Known Member
Pete Jones, no sweat... glad to help where I can.

The High CBD strains are good... Indica dominant as well. Need more specifics, what are the strain names?

What is the Vaporizer? Name/Model/Version number?

Bingo - a change! New cancer drug! Chemo? Some chemo drugs are reported to cause Anxiety. What is the name of the new drug? What others are being used already?

Harlelquin, Wifi OG, GDP are the current strains.

VXH Clound, Solo, Elevape SV - Early models on each.

New drug is one of the Gleevec type drugs for CML leukemia. But the problem predates that, I'm told. Thanks.
 

DDave

Vape Wizard
Accessory Maker
Harlelquin, Wifi OG, GDP are the current strains.

VXH Clound, Solo, Elevape SV - Early models on each.

New drug is one of the Gleevec type drugs for CML leukemia. But the problem predates that, I'm told. Thanks.
Harlequin - good choice, not reported to contribute to high Anxiety
White Fire OG - Mixed reviews, depends on source/grower. Some report relaxing, others high-euphoria.
GDP - good choice, not reported to contribute to high Anxiety

Cloud, Solo, ElevapeSV - Adjustable temps, cool. Check advice below for more.

Advice on Strains: for a while, pull the White Fire OG out of the rotation. Strains are sometimes named by effect... if so with this one, plus with the mixed reviews I've read, I'd just remove it for a while to see if things change.

Advice on Vaping Session: As a test, run sessions for a few days at max temps only. I know we've not discussed session parameters, but if stepping through temps or having low temp sessions... would advise changing this and starting/sticking to high-temps.. (example, on my EQ, starting and staying at 230C through the entire session). Some have reported a much heavier, relaxing result... others have reported this changing the THC/THCv/a ratios. I don't have equipment to verify this, but think experimenting in the upper ranges would be of benefit.
 

Pete Jones

Well-Known Member
Thanks Dave. To clarify, the anxiety is not the only complaint. Some complaints of a "cold" feeling almost like chills. While cannabis was useful for a small energy bump, it now causes more fatigue (when the anxiety isn't prominent). This is way beyond my knowledge, so I'd appreciate any further wisdom.
 
Pete Jones,

DDave

Vape Wizard
Accessory Maker
Pete, no sweat.

First thing that comes to mind regarding a new feeling of cold is circulation. How much exercise or activity is this person involved with? Next is nervous system, but that is a whole nother discussion.

Anxiety vs. Fatigue - Am going to guess balance and strain. That's a tough one, as some of my advice (high temp sessions) may cause relaxation - translating to a feeling of fatigue. Am going to jump back into diet and hydration.

I need to think further on this... also, watching for others to chime in as well... so I can see through a few other's eyes as well... :tup:
 

Pain

Well-Known Member
Low temperature vaping gives me high anxiety. Use high temp through a bubbler to get more indica effects. The bubbler allows you to handle high temp without coughing.
 

RUDE BOY

Space is the Place
as backwards as it may sound to those of you in medical or legal states Try using some good ol' brick weed (yes I mean that old seed filled Mexican weed) for a month. I have found lower grade herbs often treat my GI distress a whole lot better then top shelf medical bud without the anxiety problem and after using the lower grade meds for a short time I can go back to better quality without those side effects. Can't explain why this is but it works for me.
 

OldOyler

Fire it again. I can still find the ground.
Don't want to get my head crushed here, but I figured I would offer my two cents.

I sm SO not a doctor. But alot of a patient. And what I found was that, just for me here now, sometimes I attributed things to cannabis that should not have been.

Honestly, sounds like pancreas (obviously and/or bile duct) on the gastric side. I get some nausea as well SINCE I started RSO for my pancreas...issues. Get it with vaping now, too - didn't used to.

So, maybe it is "tweaking" an underlying problem?

Chills, either low blood pressure after a vape (just a way to note whether the cannabis is doing what we WANT, in a way), but of course if it happens other times (especially like after eating) an ulcer or other internal bleeding.

I swear I am not trying to be dramatic, quite the opposite. I honestly just wanted to mention that sometimes not viewing something as being only a side effect of cannabis, but maybe a new issue (or exacerbated previously unknown) is the case. So tests just in case is, I guess, what I mean.

Sigh. I hope I didn't muck up your thread with nonsense, or something you're thinking "Duh, dude. Of couse I checked that first". So I'm sending you good vibes before I hit "post".

:-)
 
OldOyler,
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Ms Shay Penn

New Member
Hesitant newbie here - First, I'm a patient, not a doctor or bio-scientist, so I love to check out sites like the following that are posting the latest "authorized" research abstracts (yes, most just add to the Brain Fog but enough connects I keep going back). I recommend checking for medical cannabis research but also other medications taken and diseases being fought.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=the+pharmacologic+and+clinical+effects+of+medical+cannabis
http://www.nature.com/gt/journal/v22/n2/full/gt2014108a.html
https://junotherapeutics.com/our-science/

Plus we must deal with ordinary food intake that can aggravate symptoms without being noticed, like this related new finding with preserving emulsifiers found in ice cream, chocolates, etc.

http://www.nature.com/articles/natu...ackaged-food-may-trigger-inflammatory-disease

Second, a major pro for relying heavily on medical cannabis is that symptoms are "temporarily masked" allowing user's autonomic systems to relax into a daydream-like state of unfocused contentment & accept food, thinking "the fight" is past ;-) As OldOyler wisely points out, this leads us to ignore changes longer than necessary on occasion but most of the time, ignoring physical reality is the best I can do. Point being, keep trying slightly different strains - Rude Boy is right & sometimes Old School Less is More so systems are not jumping too radically as he works in new medications.

Thirdly, once your nervous systems go off-kilter (not a scientific term) it's easy & sadly appropriate to lose confidence in your own confused senses. My best advice on the Anxiety is to consider working at Mindfulness Meditation after inhaling to enhance awareness that even if your gut is telling you someone just kicked it with steel-toed boots while repeatedly stabbing fill-in the blank:
It's not something you must (or even can) gear up to guard against (who are you really hiding from?)...
Or fight about (do you hate what was just brought to you that much?!)...
SLOW Deep Breathes actually subtly press against (I am repeating what a top physiotherapist explained & demonstrated to me) one of the sympathetic/parasympathetic control centers at the back of your abdomen...
Signaling that you have reached a place safe enough to stop for a deep breath & should now relax to recover...
It's okay to relax into that lovely cannabis euphoria after such a fierce internal battle.

Lastly, the personal support & extra effort by Pete Jones on his behalf is refreshing, uplifting & the very thing that we all need more of in this fast-paced world of TABs rushing past oblivious to the depth of our struggle. IMHO, it is the quality of social support around a person that makes the most difference.
 
Ms Shay Penn,

OldOyler

Fire it again. I can still find the ground.
I almost didn't post my "addition" after that in-depth one from @Ms Shay Penn .

But it was on my mind, so here it is:

My sincere apologoes for not posting this along with everything else. (Another reason I need to stop posting from my cell!)

Also rolling around in my mind after reading everything in the thread was the possibility of something in the terpene profile (hadn't read Ms Shay yet).

I do know that there are charts, etc. floating around (I know there are folks here on FC that know ALOT) about what terps become bioavailable (and which get toasted) at various temperatures.

But I had also been thinking about the "terpene profile" in general, so to speak, since I have been trying to get more info there. We tend to talk "THC" and "CBD", and it wasn't until I needed some more specific information to assist in my own health. Unfortunately, no caregivers in my state, docs only (who seem to all hate cannabis in my state), and no dispensaries until 2016, so that means I am my own caregiver. Although I try to read alot of case studies, I "followed" @Grow Goddess to FC after reading her details on several case studies involving Rick Simpson Oil, which is what I use for both sublingual and vaping, though I am moving to GG's new "Natural Decarb" process at this time, the result of which she has termed "ND Sap").

I wasn't trying to digress there, but make a specific point - I "settled" on Rick Simpson Oil / ND Sap because I felt they preserved the most "stuff", even though that same "stuff" is part of what made it taste not wonderful and a bit tougher in vape taste (not 100% cause and effect, but to a large degree). But I had, for myself, begun to think of concentrates as the "whole grain" of cannabis as opposed to just inhalation. And combustion seemed to burn too MUCH, and vaping was clearly leaving SOMETHING behind, since more could be made from "ABV", including medibles.

Wow, I really AM wordy. Sorry.

Anyway, here is a link to a PDF that I have been using/studying. It's from a place called "Elemental Wellness". I am putting them forth neither as pro or con. Just the PDF was really good, as most pages dealt with the specific properties of some of the other known cannabanoids. I hope you find it useful. The name sounds "basic", but I found their info on the specific effects of various terpenes to be very useful personally.

Awesome PDF that has great pages on specific terpenese and their effects (although the name can feel a bit insulting for those of us who have made it all the way to an in-depth discussion), but anyway:
http://www.elementalwellnesscenter.com/UnderstandingCannabis.pdf

:-)

I also wanted to mention that it can be hard to do the same thing with terpenes and cannabanoids as it is with the "Standard Formulary", which is to get beyond "one substance causes one side effect", and not take into account how various profiles might work *against* each other eventually - or at least interfere with the effects. I mention that because I had many more side effects when trying to have TWO different cannabis meds - one "daytime high-THC" and one "nightime high-CBD". I am not saying those aren't good ideas! They are - but there is not only a THC and CBD difference between most of the strains you mentioned - each one has a unique terpene profile, and a unique cannabanoid profile that goes beyond the THC and CBD counts. (I eventually settled on a white widow that had high THC and the upper end of "low" CBD, and I have found it excellent all around for myself).

And as always, anything that looked "rough or aggressive" on my part was SO an accident of my lousy communication skills. Peace to all of us!

EDIT AFTER THE FACT: Pages 11 and 12 of that PDF seemed appropriate for the discussion, and the pages that follow it discuss synergy between specific terpenoids and specific cannabanoids - or I mean at least the idea that I was trying to get across. :-)
 
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OldOyler,

BeardedCrow

Well-Known Member
I may not be able to offer much, but I do knoe for me, cannabis can amplify my emotions, or certain strains can bring on an onset of paranoia.
Lately I've been sticking with any strain (strain names can be lied about, or misunderstood confused etc) that smell musky, usually blue dream type. Not the skunky smelling like the OG and kushes, but the musky ones make me relaxed.

I'd say try different smells and stick to that, I don't believe strain names are accurate yet.
 
BeardedCrow,
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Pete Jones

Well-Known Member
Thank you to everyone who shared their wisdom so far. The input is very helpful (and interesting), and is accepted with much gratitude. This all remains a bit of a mystery, but let us ponder all that has been shared here. Thanks.
 
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