Presumably a light hazing, head down the toilet or something
The Grasshopper
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Presumably a light hazing, head down the toilet or something
fonzerelli
Well-Known Member
I'm doing away with that using a proprietary process that I can't discuss.
zymos
Well-Known Member
Who says it only gets 3 minutes of actual usage?
DirtD1V3R
Well-Known Member
Thank you. That is not a factual number. That is an estimation based off of a member's math. Im not saying it's wrong, just saying we don't know yet. In the beginning they told us 3+ hours continual usage. Now it is 3-4 chamber loads full. Now what 3-4 chamber loads full means in human chronological perception is outside of my knowledge. So, I'm going to say idk until we know.
grokit
well-worn member
mercury-hg
Well-Known Member
Rather than speculate wildly about battery life, let's use some actual numbers (even if they're estimated).
If they've released battery capacity specs, I have seen them. But I did see that they're using a 12.4mm x 63mm 3.7V lithium ion cell. A 18mm diameter 18650 cell has double the volume of the Grasshopper battery, so assuming equal energy density between the two types, the Grasshopper battery should have a capacity of ~1200 mAh whereas a decent 18640 cell rates about 2400 mAh.
Let's say a "session" is comprised of a few 30-60 second segments where each segment is: power on --> warmup --> draw --> exhale/break --> draw --> off. The heater won't be running at full power (30W) during the entire on-time. To get up to temp during warmup the GH probably starts at full power. It also runs hard when you're hitting the vape, but the power consumption is comparatively low when the vape is at temp and idle. Or the heater might be over-spec'ed and never run at full power but instead max out at 25W. Can't really say at this point. But we can make a few calculations assuming different numbers.
Assuming an average power draw of 25W:
I = P/V = 25/3.7 = 6.8A
Ah/A = 1.2/6.8 = .187*(60m/h) = 10.5 minutes
Assuming an average power draw of 20W:
I = P/V = 20/3.7 = 5.4A
Ah/A = 1.2/5.4 = .222*(60m/h) = 13.3 minutes
Assuming an average power draw of 15W:
I = P/V = 15/3.7 = 4.0A
Ah/A = 1.2/4.0 = .3*(60m/h) = 18 minutes
Assuming an average power draw of 10W:
I = P/V = 10/3.7 = 2.7A
Ah/A = 1.2/2.7 = .444*(60m/h) = 26.7 minutes
Li-ions do handle high discharge currents better than most other battery types, but - especially for the largest power assumptions I made - there is going to be an additional battery life penalty.
My best guesstimate is that battery life will be 10-20 minutes. If the GH team is accurate with the 3-4 bowls/charge, then we're talking 3-5 minutes of on-time to kill bowl.
If they've released battery capacity specs, I have seen them. But I did see that they're using a 12.4mm x 63mm 3.7V lithium ion cell. A 18mm diameter 18650 cell has double the volume of the Grasshopper battery, so assuming equal energy density between the two types, the Grasshopper battery should have a capacity of ~1200 mAh whereas a decent 18640 cell rates about 2400 mAh.
Let's say a "session" is comprised of a few 30-60 second segments where each segment is: power on --> warmup --> draw --> exhale/break --> draw --> off. The heater won't be running at full power (30W) during the entire on-time. To get up to temp during warmup the GH probably starts at full power. It also runs hard when you're hitting the vape, but the power consumption is comparatively low when the vape is at temp and idle. Or the heater might be over-spec'ed and never run at full power but instead max out at 25W. Can't really say at this point. But we can make a few calculations assuming different numbers.
Assuming an average power draw of 25W:
I = P/V = 25/3.7 = 6.8A
Ah/A = 1.2/6.8 = .187*(60m/h) = 10.5 minutes
Assuming an average power draw of 20W:
I = P/V = 20/3.7 = 5.4A
Ah/A = 1.2/5.4 = .222*(60m/h) = 13.3 minutes
Assuming an average power draw of 15W:
I = P/V = 15/3.7 = 4.0A
Ah/A = 1.2/4.0 = .3*(60m/h) = 18 minutes
Assuming an average power draw of 10W:
I = P/V = 10/3.7 = 2.7A
Ah/A = 1.2/2.7 = .444*(60m/h) = 26.7 minutes
Li-ions do handle high discharge currents better than most other battery types, but - especially for the largest power assumptions I made - there is going to be an additional battery life penalty.
My best guesstimate is that battery life will be 10-20 minutes. If the GH team is accurate with the 3-4 bowls/charge, then we're talking 3-5 minutes of on-time to kill bowl.
Quetzalcoatl
DEADY GUERRERO/DIRT COBAIN/GEORGE KUSH
You can figure out that stuff if you have some numbers, we have battery size and maybe it was even mentioned before but seems slimmer than a 14500 cell, and we know the watts it pulls. Given that we have a few examples of similar vapes like the ThermoVape Evolution Low Voltage cartridge with known watt usage and known battery capacities, we can get "working time" numbers out of it. Consider this though, like @DirtD1V3R said those short minutes could stretch out and be sufficient battery life for it. Sure we'll always want more battery life but if it does fully vape 3-4 loads and charges fast it will have its place. @OF and I know how much of a session vape the LV Evo was (read: 1.5 loads on a fully charged new 14500 is not a session vape)... knowing what we know about other vapes gives us a better idea than just shooting blind.
OF
Well-Known Member
@OF and I know how much of a session vape the LV Evo was (read: 1.5 loads on a fully charged new 14500 is not a session vape)... knowing what we know about other vapes gives us a better idea than just shooting blind.
Yep. And we're not alone in that experience. That is what got me to question all this at the start. Convection is generally very expensive power wise. The claims just didn't fit the real experiences we have with other vapes.
And please remember I inadvertently set off this firestorm by pointing to my new Elevape. It's a 'hit oriented' convection vape very similar in important respects to GH which is why I used it as a starting point. The maker there claims "50 to 80 puffs", each about ten seconds. I'm going on his numbers (which seem at least reasonable). 60 ten second sessions is ten minutes total heating time. I expect GH to fall short of that even if it has a 1200mAh battery which I doubt. Anyone know of any 1200mAh cells that size? I don't. The best I could find is about half that, 750mAh:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Li-lon-Cylindrical-Battery-12650-750mAh_279349346.html
It claims to be a high capacity cell, designed for e-cigs. That means I seriously doubt it's going to be up to the very high current (6 Amps?) we'll need for anything like the 750mAh. ESV appears to be running at a little over 7 Amps. But let's assume for the moment it does hold up under the high power demands without any sacrifice in capacity.......it should therefore go (750/1200)10 minutes, or about 6 minutes 15 seconds? That assumes GH has about the same power efficiency, which I doubt given it's load is a less advantageous shape and size (more mass, and much deeper?). Based on that I'm estimating 4 to 10 minutes run time. More likely 4 than 10.
On a bet (or to prove a point) I suspect you might get 3 or 4 sessions of say two minutes each? Maybe. That cold be a dozen highly disciplined hits each. But, I believe, that sort of performance is nothing close to what folks were/are expecting? For most of us a session is something like 12 minutes on the Solo to cash a stem of similar volume (1.5cc or so). I expect to be useful for many at more modest levels, but it's not, I think, a viable session vape. And it's a poor choice for sharing, unless you have a pocket full of batteries.
Looked at another way MFLB has a battery of about 1/3 the voltage but 3 times current capacity (1.2 Volts, 2200 mAh) so it's a push power wise. And the conduction scheme in the box is sure to be more efficient energy wise. There it takes considerable skill and experience to get a second trench from a battery even with a smaller load size and other advantages.
As I said before, I'd love to be proved wrong but don't expect that to happen for the above reasons.
A quick way to settle this would be for an objective guy get one to test and report back. Hopefully that will happen soon. One thing sure in my tiny mind is no way 3 hours is real (or ever was), let alone the 4+ that came before. And I don't think most will agree with the session count when finally known. We're going to be looking at total hits per charge of a few dozen. If we're lucky and avoid combustion. Useful, but not 'a great plenty'.
Regards to all.
OF
Out of interest, where do you guys guesses put temps/battery life for oil/concentrates. Sounds prohibitive? Unless it functions via a pass through on the charger cable to reach higher temps?
Edit: purely in terms of power etc, I'm aware the oil front end is a mystery atm.
Edit: purely in terms of power etc, I'm aware the oil front end is a mystery atm.
Shit Snacks
Milaana. Lana. LANA. LANAAAA! (TM2/TP80/BAK/FW9)
Haven't they said the battery is completely custom made for the Hopper with new tech etc? So it doesn't surprise me that you couldnt find another battery that sounds similar... I think its useful to apply all the battery knowledge here and surmise, but the findings dont mean too much when we dont know really anything about their battery design yet right?
Also the other features, like having the whole unit be the wire, and seemingly accurate temp control, maybe it monitors the actual load temp well, unlike most other portables. Maybe that helps it keep battery efficient? Lot of factors we do not yet know, I'm not expecting long sessions, but I think 20-45min straight could be reasonable with the on demand aspect and replaceable batteries (I got 3 total)
SlinginPaint
As Above ∞ So Below
That's all the Crafty from Storz & Bickel can push out on one charge...
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OF
Well-Known Member
Actually, I think they do. Such things, like most of life, are compromises. You play off capacity, peak power capacity, safety, battery life and so on against each other. Gain in one area means compromise in others. Same as the car analogy, bigger engines go with lower fuel economy. If you say you have a 600hp engine that gives 65 MPG that's big news. Same with batteries.
Since we're trading features in a game where the riles are widely known it's reasonable to think if such amazing performance was possible (like twice the capacity with still higher power capability the makers would not be sitting around waiting for GH to ask for it.......they'd be using it to beat their competition senseless in a marked where 'numbers sell'.
These guys haven't invented a radical new battery design (or at least t they're keeping real quiet) all they can do is buy what someone else has the resources to make for them. And that guy could make the same thing for anyone else or market it himself.
The cell I found is already optimized for maximum capacity (run time) in that package with only enough power delivery available to meet their customer's needs (making e-cigs) we can assume. It fits with others of similar volume.
Even if they somehow found a magic way to put say four times more power in that tiny package they're still way short of coming close to their original claims. As well as, I suspect, what most think of "3 or 4 sessions" (that's what Air does....).
That makes more sense to me. More efficient heating technique, better insulation, much bigger battery....
Eventually, hopefully soon, we should know for sure or know we'll never know?
OF
Shit Snacks
Milaana. Lana. LANA. LANAAAA! (TM2/TP80/BAK/FW9)
I kinda think anyone truly expecting a full 3 hours straight use, was always just waiting to be dissapointed... Seeing that original (indiegogo marketing) claim made me guess like 45min to 1hour, and with replaceable batteries I dont even really care what it is frankly. As other have said, it is beyond common to overestimate battery life, particularly considering so much has changed since the indiegogo its almost useless to even look back on it now
OF
Well-Known Member
I agree, they were most like doomed from the start, but that's not what they believed. This thread clearly shows that. Reality update and all that.
I agree it's a bad estimate (ignoring how it got there), but I think '45 minutes to an hour' heating time is also unrealistic. By a factor of four or more? While it's common to fudge a bit with run times, 30 times is a big fib. Even a few times is way out of line IMO. Tell me it gets 2 hours when I only get 90 minutes and blame my running at higher heat and that's one thing. Promising hours and delivering minutes is another. Real engineers don't make mistakes that big normally, even with help from sales. It's just 'too good to be true'.
Maybe. Soon we'll know.
OF
cow-a-bunga
Well-Known Member
I'll be okay if the GH can finish 3 bowls on one charge. It's enough for me. I can bring a spare battery or a power bank to charge it if I need more. The Crafty thread has some good links for good deals on battery banks.
The advertised 3 hour battery life may be true if you put it on the lowest temp and don't use it. Same as the iPhone 6 Plus is advertised with 16 days (384 hours) of standby time. Nobody can use their iphone for that long without charging it.
Like OF wrote, they have not invented a new battery design. If Samsung, Sony, Apple and the other tech giants can't do it, neither can the GH team.
Still haven't ordered a GH, I have another few days to decide before my preorder option expires. The smartest thing would be waittng for FC reviews, but the VAS is itching hard...
The advertised 3 hour battery life may be true if you put it on the lowest temp and don't use it. Same as the iPhone 6 Plus is advertised with 16 days (384 hours) of standby time. Nobody can use their iphone for that long without charging it.
Like OF wrote, they have not invented a new battery design. If Samsung, Sony, Apple and the other tech giants can't do it, neither can the GH team.
Still haven't ordered a GH, I have another few days to decide before my preorder option expires. The smartest thing would be waittng for FC reviews, but the VAS is itching hard...
stickstones
Vapor concierge
I know battery tech is evolving quickly...any chance they are taking advantage of this?
OF
Well-Known Member
Anything is possible, but the claims were made a long time back, several YO tech by now at least? Great secret to keep that long........
If possible, why mess with vapes? Make amazing batteries and get filthy rich instead........
My money's on no show.
OF
Spinuch
Well-Known Member
It takes forever for a new type of battery to come out. Like others have said or got close to saying. If GH invented an amazing battery then why would they be selling a vaporizer? I think they removed the battery life info from their website now. I don't care if people are calling this normal advertising practices it's unethical and enraging.
paytonpenn
Level 30 Nature/Healer
They've done a pretty good overhaul on their website and now I can't find any previous information or blog posts anymore and their Twitter looks like they've deleted some posts.
But what about the fact that they are using aerospace technology (supposedly) isn't that what should really counter or supply support the farce claims.
EDIT:
I would find it more believable that they didn't reach their expectations if this was released earlier but they've been give a good year to realize the GrassHopper they've personally had for the videos before production wasn't going to last anywhere near one hour.
But what about the fact that they are using aerospace technology (supposedly) isn't that what should really counter or supply support the farce claims.
EDIT:
I would find it more believable that they didn't reach their expectations if this was released earlier but they've been give a good year to realize the GrassHopper they've personally had for the videos before production wasn't going to last anywhere near one hour.
Scott A
Well-Known Member
The only thing is , and this is their direct words, "We've fit a battery that can provide over 3 hours of continuous usage.". I personally expect the word usage to mean it is in use and not just sitting in a standby mode.
lwien
Well-Known Member
I know that the GH team has learned some things that they didn't know when they originally started their funding campaign, but it does bring into question the ethics used to generate that funding. If their funding claims prove to be false and people donated their money based on those false claims, I know if it were me, I'd be more than just a bit upset.
syrupy
Authorized Buyer
I think some formulas were posted above that indicated that number can be reached, if wattage is low enough. I think of it like running the Solo at level 1. It heats, but not enough to do much. I learned to carry a bunch of batteries with the MFLB, but it really takes from the stealth factor. And something about proximity of pocketed batteries to my groin never felt comforting...
I'm not certain it's an ethical issue at the core. When any new product is coming into being, there's little certainty. If they play it safe and minimize promises, that really hurts the crowdfunding aspect. Things need excitement to get off the ground. That's the difference between this kind of funding and more traditional--- it needs a meaty story to get the public's $$$ involved. I look at any promises, hopes, expectations in crowdfunding to be just for purposes of getting capital, not advertisement of an existing product.
Maybe I'm too soft on these kind of products, but I think people are generally paying for the excitement factor.
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