Vapman

vapman said:

To me, vapman is a convection vaporizer with some conduction effect when drawing on the mouthpiece.

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Is that what you meant to say? "Vapman is a conduction vape with some convection effects when drawing" makes more sense to me. Until you puff on it, not much moving......

In any event, I think we're in agreement the radiation contribution is not the driving force here?

OF

amen to that, brother. praise the vapman, the almighty.

hoyo77 said:

But in the end when it is all said and done. The VAPMAN is a beast and I love my Vapman!! The ritual of preparing concentrates and herbs for this beauty is just relaxing. I wish i were bold enough to post some vape porn. Maybe one day i will get my nerve up.

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Mine shipped out on Friday directly from the manufacturer. For those who have experience, what am I looking at for timing (for the US)? I've never gotten anything shipped from Europe.

steama said:

Very fast. I think mine took about a week.

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Agreed. Perhaps a day or so longer, but I've had stuff from inside the states take longer.

Came in a fun package, too. Lots of pretty stamps IIRC. Very Swiss...... A real treat, IMO.

OF

OF said:

"Don't shoot a sparrow with a cannon".

OF

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Sorry for the OT

Why do think to the best or worst way to shoot a sparrow?

Otherwise I agree, "do not light the oven with a flame thrower"

About heat transfert by IR radiation in VM I would not exclude it (as in Lotus too and a little with hammer or vaponic).
I mean, while heating with a 1200* C flame for 3-4 secs a gold plated thin copper cone there is a big difference in temperature between copper and leaves.
Rapidly after cutting lighter off they reach thermal equilibrium, that is clear, but while heating with lighter the copper bowl is highly hotter than the contents of it (otherwise it couldn't work ). They are very close (heat source and heat sink) so I think IR radiation is quite involved in vaporizing (heat transfert) with VM, at least while torching the bowl maybe less than conduction but more than convection overall, IMO.

Anyway it would be nice to see a thermal camera on VM bowl from torching to hitting phase

Andreaerdna said:

I mean, while heating with a 1200* C flame for 3-4 secs a gold plated thin copper cone there is a big difference in temperature between copper and leaves.
Rapidly after cutting lighter off they reach thermal equilibrium, that is clear, but while heating with lighter the copper bowl is highly hotter than the contents of it (otherwise it couldn't work )

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Actually I don't think that's true. You bring the copper temperature up to about 400F, not 1200F, let alone 1200C (Copper melts just before 1100C...).

If the copper was significantly hotter than 400F the bud contacting it would scorch and combust as it passed 450 or so, right?

Move over, Vapman himself said as much about 12 hours ago:

"I agree with OF, to heat something by radiation, the heating element must be hotter to much hotter than the medium to be heated up. This applies definitely not with vapman as the herb chamber gets only a little hotter than the herbs."

I agree with him (obviously) and estimate that "little hotter" is probably something like 25 degrees? Nothing "big" or "highly hotter" going on.....or we'd be blazing not vaping?

OF

OF said:

Actually I don't think that's true. You bring the copper temperature up to about 400F, not 1200F, let alone 1200C (Copper melts just before 1100C...).

If the copper was significantly hotter than 400F the bud contacting it would scorch and combust as it passed 450 or so, right?

Move over, Vapman himself said as much about 12 hours ago:

"I agree with OF, to heat something by radiation, the heating element must be hotter to much hotter than the medium to be heated up. This applies definitely not with vapman as the herb chamber gets only a little hotter than the herbs."

I agree with him (obviously) and estimate that "little hotter" is probably something like 25 degrees? Nothing "big" or "highly hotter" going on.....or we'd be blazing not vaping?

OF

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This debate is very interesting, but since it's well over my head, I can only sit on the sidelines, watch, and agree with my brother hoyo77.

To me the Vapman works by magic alone. It takes the fire magic that goes through the magic herbs in the magic golden cauldron and pulls the magical spirit from these herbs into the warm air that flows into your body and which in turn makes your heart and mind happy, glad and loving to everything and all!

I have scientific evidence that supports my explanation:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." ~ Arthur C. Clarke

And to my small mind, almost all technology is more than sufficiently advanced, thus all is magic!

But, please do continue. I'll keep watching from the sidelines with my magic-infused mind...

I agree 1200 is way too much, if we talk about the whole bowl. it has his inertia and the flame is applied on only a small portion of the bowl so there is a temperature gradient going from 1200 of the flame to somewhere around 400 on the higher part of the bowl I guess. And I do think a beginning of gold melting happens where flame is applied as on lotus plate.

That being said I admitt I like to discuss about phisics of beautiful objects

M0J0 said:

This debate is very interesting, but since it's well over my head, I can only sit on the sidelines, watch, and agree with my brother hoyo77.

To me the Vapman works by magic alone. It takes the fire magic that goes through the magic herbs in the magic golden cauldron and pulls the magical spirit from these herbs into the warm air that flows into your body and which in turn makes your heart and mind happy, glad and loving to everything and all!

I have scientific evidence that supports my explanation:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." ~ Arthur C. Clarke

And to my small mind, almost all technology is more than sufficiently advanced, thus all is magic!

But, please do continue. I'll keep watching from the sidelines with my magic-infused mind...

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I like you. and I am pretty sure I'm going to love the Vapman. Thank you for this perfect explanation!

Enchantre said:

I like you. and I am pretty sure I'm going to love the Vapman. Thank you for this perfect explanation!

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Thanks for the compliment @Enchantre!

I know you'll love your Vapman. Let us know how it goes.

M0J0 said:

To me the Vapman works by magic alone.

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I believe you've summed the condition up exactly.

To bad you didn't post sooner, you could have saved me a lot of typing.......

Andreaerdna said:

I agree 1200 is way too much, if we talk about the whole bowl. it has his inertia and the flame is applied on only a small portion of the bowl so there is a temperature gradient going from 1200 of the flame to somewhere around 400 on the higher part of the bowl I guess. And I do think a beginning of gold melting happens where flame is applied as on lotus plate.

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Don't confuse heat (calories, Joules or BTUs delivered) with temperature (degrees). Not all degrees are the same. You can wave your hand through that 1200 degrees since the actual energy (in calories say) in the small volume of gas that touches your skin is too small to burn your skin in the time available. Not enough calories to worry about.

OTOH, heat transfer through the Copper is very easy and fast. The entire Copper mass (little more than a concave disc really) is the same temperature within a degree or two, the "temperature gradient" is between the flame and the copper. This is the reason it's Copper (great conductor of heat, as cited by the maker a while back......man knows his materials......). Same as a kitchen pan cooks evenly across the bottom even though only part of it's in contact with the fire or heater element. Thermodynamics explains the details, but that quickly devolves into strange math with even stranger symbols. Usually Greek symbols come to think on it, and you know what king of a mess they've got their numbers in these days.....

Lotus is a whole other thing, I think. There the Nickle plate is very thin and definitely gets much hotter. It in turn heats air (much hotter than 400F) to carry the heat into the load. Here the 'thin' heat of the 'way too hot' air is quickly given up to the mass of the load, much like waving your hand through as you wave it through the flame above, not enough heat available to heat the bulk fast enough to get into trouble before the heat (energy) is conducted away from the surface. Temperature builds slowly. Over time the heat builds up to the magic number in the load, just like it does in the Copper in VM before moving into the load (mostly by conduction again).

All in all I think the magic explanation is more useful......and easier to understand. As long as it works the same way each time, most could (rightly IMO) care less how or why?

OF

Andreaerdna said:

Anyway it would be nice to see a thermal camera on VM bowl from torching to hitting phase

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Well, I didn't do the hitting phase as I would need a lab partner for that and I'm without a suitable lab partner this evening since my dog still can't figure out how to work the camera.

The most interesting part to me was that the chamber side of the vapman seemed to retain heat much better than the torching side as you can see when I turn the unit over and over in the video. The mouthpiece was not used during this video.

Fun stuff!

Stu said:

Well, I didn't do the hitting phase as I would need a lab partner for that and I'm without a suitable lab partner this evening since my dog still can't figure out how to work the camera.

The most interesting part to me was that the chamber side of the vapman seemed to retain heat much better than the torching side as you can see when I turn the unit over and over in the video. The mouthpiece was not used during this video.

Fun stuff!

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Holy crap that was awesome! Hahaha!

See what I mean? You can see the magic doing its thing there!

Wow man, I gotta get me one of those magic-sensing cameras!

Thanks for posting that @Stu.

Stu said:

The most interesting part to me was that the chamber side of the vapman seemed to retain heat much better than the torching side as you can see when I turn the unit over and over in the video. The mouthpiece was not used during this video.

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Very interesting. I'm guessing we're looking at an artifact of how the measurement is made? Basically such things are an IR light meter, masking the view (like is happening?) can give such results perhaps?

I also found it fun to watch the heat 'soak into' the bulk of the copper, the time constant is pretty fast.....

Thanks. Beats your Pismo Beach vacation video all hollow.

OF

OF said:

Is that what you meant to say? "Vapman is a conduction vape with some convection effects when drawing" makes more sense to me. Until you puff on it, not much moving......OF

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Thank you OF and sorry for the mix-up!
Of course, I wanted to say that vapman is a conduction vaporizer with some convection effects caused by the three tubes, when drawing on the mouthpiece.

Just to stay on this topic for a bit longer, there are a lot of discussions about which one of the two principles is better. I don`t think that convection is better than conduction or vice versa, it all depends
on the size, material and shape of the heating chamber. In case the heating chamber is small and the distance through the content, enhanced by a certain shape, is short, then conduction can be as good as convection. Vapman actually proofs this, where on the other side, a large chamber needs convection in order to distribute the heat evenly and in time. As mentioned before, the material of the chamber is also crucial, vapman would not work, at least never as well with a heating chamber made of steel, for instance. Vapman has a bit of both worlds and a dash of magic, as MOJO found out.


vapman

which makes you an illusionist and us waiting for the next big reveal, every illusionist invents to amaze his public. just surprise us with more magic.

vapman said:

Vapman has a bit of both worlds and a dash of magic, as MOJO found out.


vapman

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You guys are killing me. Waiting patiently for this piece while I hear about its "magical" abilities. A lot of seasoned vaporists (just an observation) are giving this great reviews so the anticipation grows. I was at a 5 hour seminar yesterday on the water, beautiful day. How sweet it would be to sneak a hit from vapman to enhance the experience and appreciate the scenery.

vapman said:

Just to stay on this topic for a bit longer, there are a lot of discussions about which one of the two principles is better. I don`t think that convection is better than conduction or vice versa, it all depends
on the size, material and shape of the heating chamber. In case the heating chamber is small and the distance through the content, enhanced by a certain shape, is short, then conduction can be as good as convection.

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This has been rattling around in my head a bit. "Why is there a bias toward convection over conduction?".......

First the easy aside for those taking notes. Notice how the load shape tapers in VM as you move from teh center out? Cone shaped on the bottom, but flat on the top? IMO not an accident, rather to take advantage of Thermodynamics making it very clever. As we move out, there's less heat available so there's automatically less herb to heat. I suspect confirmed by careful 'trial and error' long ago. With that goes the observation that the copper is thicker in the center as well (that is the angle on the outside is more acute). This, I think, is again bowing to the rules of Physics since as you go out the circumference is growing. Again, solid design based on what's happening in use.

As to the conduction/convection war, first off I think VM is right. Careful design can eliminate much of the advantage convection has (ability to uniformly distribute heat in the load). By bringing the load to where the heat is you might say?

But I think it's also a taste thing. Folks also get the opinion that convection vapes deliver better taste, no doubt because most do most of the time. Most of the time, but not always? Why? Heat is heat, it's all the same to the molecules.......

My thought is it has to do with staying clean? That is the objectionable taste coming from the vape itself, not the load. Nasty tasting vapes taste nasty because the surfaces inside make them? Also in the mix is how much hotter those surfaces are than the load. Ascent, for instance, seems to avoid this but is still a conduction vape. Solo/Air as well. Not so others.

Back to VM. Not only do we have a surface little hotter than the load (meaning lots of contact area doing the work relative to the mass/heat flow demands) but the top is flat SS and routinely wiped clean and the rest is Gold plated! Noble metal.....brilliant. Pretty and self cleaning! As I've said before, the man knows his materials.

OF

I'm also waiting on mine.. happily, not fretting.
From what I've read, and from my memory of the NO2, the conduction hit extracts a bit faster, broader spectrum, and with more caramelizing of the plant matter, which adds that lovely caramel/toast hint to it...
also, I'm under the hopeful idea that it will hit a bit more "smack to the third eye" similar to combustion... currently, as I'm fighting my condition, I've had to resort to quick fire hits to get immediate relief in a hard enough way... vaping hasn't been keeping up, medibles don't help this, and dabbing is getting too frequent.

If I can get fast relief, hard-hitting relief, without the , I'll be very happy.

Enchantre said:

I'm also waiting on mine.. happily, not fretting.
From what I've read, and from my memory of the NO2, the conduction hit extracts a bit faster, broader spectrum, and with more caramelizing of the plant matter, which adds that lovely caramel/toast hint to it...
also, I'm under the hopeful idea that it will hit a bit more "smack to the third eye" similar to combustion... currently, as I'm fighting my condition, I've had to resort to quick fire hits to get immediate relief in a hard enough way... vaping hasn't been keeping up, medibles don't help this, and dabbing is getting too frequent.

If I can get fast relief, hard-hitting relief, without the , I'll be very happy.

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one thing i can say about the vapman it gets you there quick with a small amount. I am often amazed at how plastered how am from that thing. The concentrate screens take the vapman to a new level.

Radiation or conduction (time is passed from school, I had to check definitions)

From wiki

Heat conduction (or thermal conduction) is the transfer of internal energy by microscopic diffusion and collisions of particles or quasi-particles within a body due to a temperature gradient ("within a body")

But also

Thermal radiation is electromagnetic radiation generated by the thermal motion of charged particles in matter. All matter with a temperature greater than absolute zero emits thermal radiation.

So heat conduction allows copper bowl to get evenly hot, and heat radiation allows leaves to be evenly heaten in short time (btw leaves are very good thermal insulator not conductor, used as natural material in domestic heat insulation) and holes allows to better suck vapour with a very little covection (air stream cold down very rapidly the 3little golden pipes IMO)

Andreaerdna said:

But also

Thermal radiation is electromagnetic radiation generated by the thermal motion of charged particles in matter. All matter with a temperature greater than absolute zero emits thermal radiation.

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Yes, but since both the load and the wall are emitting IR while the wall is heating the load, the load is also heating the wall. The net transfer to the load (making it hotter in degrees) can only happen when it's emitting less than it's getting back.....that only happens when the wall is hotter. In practice a lot hotter (like hundreds of degrees). Since that (large temperature difference) isn't happening, heating by IR isn't either.

In the water analogy heat transfer is gallons per minute (flow rate). Temperature is pounds per square inch (pressure). For a given temperature difference (pressure difference) the flow rate is determined by the missing factor that links them. But when the difference goes to zero, the 'coupling factor' doesn't matter it's still a zero so no more transfer (flow) can happen. Them's the rules.

OF

OF said:

Yes, but since both the load and the wall are emitting IR while the wall is heating the load, the load is also heating the wall. The net transfer to the load (making it hotter in degrees) can only happen when it's emitting less than it's getting back.....that only happens when the wall is hotter. In practice a lot hotter (like hundreds of degrees). Since that (large temperature difference) isn't happening, heating by IR isn't either.

In the water analogy heat transfer is gallons per minute (flow rate). Temperature is pounds per square inch (pressure). For a given temperature difference (pressure difference) the flow rate is determined by the missing factor that links them. But when the difference goes to zero, the 'coupling factor' doesn't matter it's still a zero so no more transfer (flow) can happen. Them's the rules.

OF

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Sorry to insist, I know you are kind OF scientific authority around here, but heat flows from hotter to colder only one way and 1 degree is enough to transfer heat, bowl is always hotter in order to heat leaves and produce vapor, if load is hotter than bowl it means it is cooling down and not producing vapor

Andreaerdna said:

Sorry to insist, I know you are kind OF scientific authority around here, but heat flows from hotter to colder only one way and 1 degree is enough to transfer heat, bowl is always hotter in order to heat leaves and produce vapor, if load is hotter than bowl it means it is cooling down and not producing vapor

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steama said:

Conduction and radiation are married. Where there is thermal conduction there is also thermal radiation. To me these 'heat' arguments tend to become very circular because all these words simply describe what the heat is doing or how heat is moving. It ends up being a battle of semantics based on paper thin points that blur anyway.

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absolutely correct but you forget the secret lover: where cunduction marry radiation they both sleep with convection. it is always a question of proportion