Discontinued Zion vaporizer

There are a couple vendors who, like Apple, have a pricier product that has a dedicated client base that is willing to pay more than everyone else for their product. That is OK when they are not trying to sell to the mass market and are satisfied with a smaller client base. S & B with their 2 recent additions comes immediately to mind. They may well have something better than most of their competitors, but they eliminate huge sectors of customers by being too expensive. In Apple's case they were also FIRST to market, and developed much loyalty from the very beginning. S & B was also very early with the Volcano, and their rep came from that vape which many still claim to be the best. Needless to say it is too late to get that kind of advantage.

If you develop a GREAT product in a mid range price point, I think you can be very successful. But in a maturing market this is MUCH harder to do, and you will HAVE to provide something unique that average users can afford. I wish you well.

stickstones said:

If you go over $250 you're sunk. At $150 it sounds like a winner, assuming performance is up to par.

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Agreed, 150 is the perfect price for high quality. Very fairm considering accessories often have to be purchased as well. 200 is threshhold

Thanks all... sounds like we are on the same page... $200 is upper limit. Depending on options, accessories, warranty, craftsmanship and assumed performance the price range of $140 - $180 seems to be the sweet spot. Makes sense with the MFLB in at around $90 - $120 and many conduction units hitting the market in the same range. Stands to reason a unit that provides superior convection technology would fetch a bit more

The first 2x4 has been completed and I added some new pictures to the web site. Videos will out soon!

http://www.rastabuddhatao.net/2x4

@RastaBuddhaTao for the battery indicator why not use a button switch that has LED that can change color depending on battery voltage? The same switch you are using is available with LED if I'm not mistaken.

Yeh a lighted switch or an LED that is the question. The switch does not require another set of wires and connections. But switches a this amperage are hard to come by so it might make dual sourcing difficult (always need at least two vendors for continuity of supply and competition) and are somewhat expensive. The LED is committing it to all units whereas the switch could be an option. I will most likely launch the product with no indicator or with the switch option to allow time to evaluate. After many months of running the prototype I don't see any use for one as it is easy to know when the batteries are dead as the unit stops hitting

RastaBuddhaTao said:

Yeh a lighted switch or an LED that is the question. The switch does not require another set of wires and connections. But switches a this amperage are hard to come by so it might make dual sourcing difficult (always need at least two vendors for continuity of supply and competition) and are somewhat expensive. The LED is committing it to all units whereas the switch could be an option. I will most likely launch the product with no indicator or with the switch option to allow time to evaluate. After many months of running the prototype I don't see any use for one as it is easy to know when the batteries are dead as the unit stops hitting

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How much current are you running through the switch, because from my understanding power goes from battery to control board to heater, just saying we have a similar setup with 7.4v and we can draw 5-6 amps without breaking a sweat on a switch that's rated at 2 amps.


Believe me your going to want a battery indicator of some sort. Even if it's a flashing light that says it needs a recharge. As a manufacturer think of these guys here as your most loyal clients, they are willing to test stuff for you and if you pass this gauntlet that means you'll have a successful vape that you can be proud of.

Not sure how big your device is but put me on board as someone who will purchase it just so I can have a new herbal vape.

+1 on having a battery indicator, even if it's the most basic LED.

Yes, it definitely will not be over $200 - Mark my words. Potentially MSRP of $189 to build in some margin for the retail outlets and to have a price that I can discount off of for the recommended "Birthday sales" and other selective test market promotions.

The idea is to build a stripped down unit that delivers the reliable portable pure convection technology that won't break the bank. A working man’s vape - simple, reliable, natural, effective and built with artisan care and quality. The plan is to have the customer start with a base unit and add upgrades and accessories as he goes (4 bay charger, extra batteries, extra mouthpieces and screens etc). This will allow us to price the base price unit near the magic $150 price point. I didn't go to Stanford and I never worked for Apple but I've designed products for nearly 25 years in every industry you can think of and what I have learned is customers demand solid value for their money and they should. Paytonpenn is right, hard for the average guy to justify paying more than a couple hundred for a vaporizer even if it has bells and whistles and glows

Just for my FC friends... here is a couple of quick videos. Please keep in mind that this is a Beta unit with the purpose of validating the technology in production intent hardware. The Zion is in the process of esthetic and ergonomic changes (see avatar pic) and will look far superior to the rough prototype you are about to see. Rastabuddhatao's design philosophy of heavy customer involvement in the design phase is the reason these first look video's being are being made available to FC members today. With that said, take a look and tell us everything you like and more importantly don't like about the 2X4 and the Zion. The more input you give, the better the device will be.

I will do my best to answer any and all questions but there are some limits pertaining specifically to the Patent Pending High Surface Area to Volume heater technology.

Thanks for the continued support!
U
ser Name: FCmember
Password: zion2x4
http://www.rastabuddhatao.net/2x4-vids

Hehe...your stem looks dirty... Probably because of its color, but it looks dirty... Or is that resin hihi

Liking where this is going. Will be watching closely from the other side of the Ocean

Liking this one as well but am I blind or is there no sign in button in the site? Cause it asks me to log in when trying to watch the videos…

Will it get any smaller for production?

natural farmer said:

Liking this one as well but am I blind or is there no sign in button in the site? Cause it asks me to log in when trying to watch the videos…

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RastaBuddhaTao said:

User Name: FCmember
Password: zion2x4
http://www.rastabuddhatao.net/2x4-vids

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Oh thanks mate! Hadn't seen that!

stickstones said:

Will it get any smaller for production?

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Oh my, that's big indeed… Doesn't seem pocketable pocketable…

@RastaBuddhaTao said it will be smaller, check his avatar. Maybe it can even be rounded some day, even more like a portable log or pure convection Solo.

I'd also suggest shorter glass stems option, maybe including one long glass and one short steel or something some day. But to keep costs down will likely be a separate accessory.

I like the early rough looks, very DIY, but also very much like a convection mflb as you describe. May not be the most pocketable convection portable, but I'm still really interested in this guy. And using us for design input makes me very optimistic, much like the Indica was FC designed to improve portable conduction

I would think at this point that they are still working on the design of the functioning parts with their PP oven and all, and the look of this beta is likely to change dramaticly. Making it work as designed first, and then making it pretty, so the current clunky look is not a concern. The tech sounds exciting. I haven't used a flash vape or anything instant on, and that really does appeal to me.

stickstones said:

Will it get any smaller for production?

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Yes, as you can see by the picture in my avitar the unit is getting smaller. The 2x4 was designed on the larger side to ensure the power electronics would fit. However the width is driven by the two batteries and a case that is wide enough to accept the magnets for the cover and the depth is driven by the batteries and the 19 mm joint. This will put it right on the threshold of "pocketable"

The design team is evaluating eliminating the hole for the mouthpiece to further reduce the size and give it better esthetics and ergonomics. We would include a clip to hold the mouthpiece secure to the heater glass. The team is really torn on this design decision.. What does FC think?

Due to the improvement in our efficiency we plan to do a smaller single battery stealth unit in the future if the Zion is a success. The first step is to get some hours on the heater technology so we can further refine and tune it's performance.

I can't thank FC enough for your valuable input. Keep it coming we are listening!

Oh no if removing the hole for the mouthpiece means we have to carry a glass part separated from the vape, I vote against! In the Ascent the stem is retractable in the device, in the Firewood it's not, guess which one I carry in my bag daily?

RastaBuddhaTao said:

Yes, as you can see by the picture in my avitar the unit is getting smaller. The 2x4 was designed on the larger side to ensure the power electronics would fit. However the width is driven by the two batteries and a case that is wide enough to accept the magnets for the cover and the depth is driven by the batteries and the 19 mm joint. This will put it right on the threshold of "pocketable"

The design team is evaluating eliminating the hole for the mouthpiece to further reduce the size and give it better esthetics and ergonomics. We would include a clip to hold the mouthpiece secure to the heater glass. The team is really torn on this design decision.. What does FC think?

Due to the improvement in our efficiency we plan to do a smaller single battery stealth unit in the future if the Zion is a success. The first step is to get some hours on the heater technology so we can further refine and tune it's performance.

I can't thank FC enough for your valuable input. Keep it coming we are listening!

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Hey man! I really like what I see so far!

I think you should first go with a single battery one cause that's what really is portable by today's standards. Look at the Crafty and look at the Grasshopper that is coming... As long as it can give more than 3-4 nice long sessions and since the battery is replaceable then why not go for the one that will certainly sell the most?

Also, a really well designed external holder for the stem could work but not for a glass stem. An anodised aluminium one would be a great alternative choice for out of house use as well as wood and high grade plastics. Anodised aluminium is inert like ceramic and will have the same clear taste as glass and is a breeze to clean as well. Maybe the cost is also lower but I am not sure. Lotus's pipe stem is anodised aluminium and it has a killer taste for most people I know around here...

I hope I brought something interesting to the table.... Keep up the good work!

EDIT: PS: If you can give us a wooden, more economic Crafty and it's not made in Germany............. take our money now!!!!!! I hope you have places to stash the cash! lol

natural farmer said:

Hey man! I really like what I see so far!

I think you should first go with a single battery one cause that's what really is portable by today's standards. Look at the Crafty and look at the Grasshopper that is coming... As long as it can give more than 3-4 nice long sessions and since the battery is replaceable then why not go for the one that will certainly sell the most?

Also, a really well designed external holder for the stem could work but not for a glass stem. An anodised aluminium one would be a great alternative choice for out of house use as well as wood and high grade plastics. Anodised aluminium is inert like ceramic and will have the same clear taste as glass and is a breeze to clean as well. Maybe the cost is also lower but I am not sure. Lotus's pipe stem is anodised aluminium and it has a killer taste for most people I know around here...

I hope I brought something interesting to the table.... Keep up the good work!

EDIT: PS: If you can give us a wooden, more economic Crafty and it's not made in Germany............. take our money now!!!!!! I hope you have places to stash the cash! lol

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http://www.rastabuddhatao.net/conceptual

Thanks NF! Great feed back. Please see the link above for a look at conceptual models of the aluminum stems you requested (top left images). We will not launch with them but they will be on the top of the coming accessory list.

We he have the space claim for the stem holder (a hole dilled in the wood lol) and we are brainstorming ideas so by all means if you have some please share we will be rounding off the Zion to the best of our abilities (upper right image) but we are also contemplating eliminating the space holder in the body of the unit and shortening it as shit snacks suggested. With this design we would use a spring wire clip to hold the mouthpiece in (Upper right, second image down) - I know, put the pics in the post next time

So FC... Which design do you like better?... a bit bigger with a mouthpiece holder in the wood or one that is smaller and more ergonomic in your hand but has a clip on stem that extends slightly past the top like an ecig mod?

As for the battery design we need to launch with the two battery unit (7.4V) in order to learn and refine the heater technology to run on one battery (3.7V) as we need the higher voltage at this point in order to produce the power required for the instantaneous response time. These initial units are planned for the connoisseur of pure vapor technology to maximize the advancement of this fledgling heater technology. The small stealth unit is in the plan but it is a while out along with the home unit.

To be honest I haven't taken a deep dive into the crafty, grasshopper, firefly, etc... as I did turn a blind eye intentionally to the details of the existing technology that was on the market while I developed the Zion heater base technology but I will take a look. Know that I have started to take a look around at the competition I want a ton of vapes too lol

if you're looking around, look at the solo and the air. In particular, notice how the air is a smaller solo using one instead of two batteries which is similar to the dilemma you are facing at the moment.

I'm sorry but I disagree with the two posts above.

First there's no magic with batteries, the Air has less capacity than the Solo and the Crafty way less than the Mighty (1 vs 2 cells each time) Yes you could carry more but it's a hassle to have cells in your pockets really. My daily drivers both have two high capacity cells (2600's for the FM5 for instance, and 2200's for the Ascent iirc) yet I still feel it's not enough for my needs and I have to recharge them daily (meaning the 300 warranted cycles were spent in less than one year and they already started to degrade)

Now invoking the grasshoper is a far stretch because we all suspect with such a small single cell and what they claim, you will only be able to cash one tiny bowl or at most two before the cell is dead. For me this is not acceptable, sorry.

And don't forget he is aiming at instant heat convection technology, so we should be comparing to both the Firefly and the Elevape. And guess what? The main problem users complain about these two models is the already poor battery life. EDIT: apparently I was wrong for the EV, it only applies to the FF

Then secondly and it's been discussed many times on FC, we don't have the same taste buds. If you are fine with aluminium or any metal stem @natural farmer, it's nice for you but it's not the case at all for me. I can taste those bloody metals, it gives me a nasty oxydation taste in my mouth which is quite displeasant. And I don't want to touch the aluminium safety controversy, as apparently even scientists have troubles coming to a consensus on the topic.

KeroZen said:

I'm sorry but I disagree with the two posts above.

First there's no magic with batteries, the Air has less capacity than the Solo and the Crafty way less than the Mighty (1 vs 2 cells each time) Yes you could carry more but it's a hassle to have cells in your pockets really. My daily drivers both have two high capacity cells (2600's for the FM5 for instance, and 2200's for the Ascent iirc) yet I still feel it's not enough for my needs and I have to recharge them daily (meaning the 300 warranted cycles were spent in less than one year and they already started to degrade)

Now invoking the grasshoper is a far stretch because we all suspect with such a small single cell and what they claim, you will only be able to cash one tiny bowl or at most two before the cell is dead. For me this is not acceptable, sorry.

And don't forget he is aiming at instant heat convection technology, so we should be comparing to both the Firefly and the Elevape. And guess what? The main problem users complain about these two models is the already poor battery life.

Then secondly and it's been discussed many times on FC, we don't have the same taste buds. If you are fine with aluminium or any metal stem @natural farmer, it's nice for you but it's not the case at all for me. I can taste those bloody metals, it gives me a nasty oxydation taste in my mouth which is quite displeasant. And I don't want to touch the aluminium safety controversy, as apparently even scientists have troubles coming to a consensus on the topic.[/QUOTE

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Great input gentleman!

Yes, convection takes 6 to 8 times the power as compared to conduction so it's a trade-off between size and battery life. The Zion is committed to launch with two high drain high capacity 18650 batteries and we will do the market research over the next year to determine how best to do a stealth unit.

Right now my dilemma is do I leave the holder for the mouth piece in the wood body or do I expose the top of the felmale joint (raise it out of the wood body) and use a standard joint clip to secure for transport and storage???? The mouth piece will be shortened such that it just sticks up beyond the top of the box and inch or so.

This is the last big design decision on the production unit. What does everybody think????

RastaBuddhaTao said:

Great input gentleman!

Yes, convection takes 6 to 8 times the power as compared to conduction so it's a trade-off between size and battery life. The Zion is committed to launch with two high drain high capacity 18650 batteries and we will do the market research over the next year to determine how best to do a stealth unit.

Right now my dilemma is do I leave the holder for the mouth piece in the wood body or do I expose the top of the felmale joint (raise it out of the wood body) and use a standard joint clip to secure for transport and storage???? The mouth piece will be shortened such that it just sticks up beyond the top of the box and inch or so.

This is the last big design decision on the production unit. What does everybody think????

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Would making the mouthpiece stem a smaller diameter help with the space savings. Is the heater dependant on the size of the Gong joint?

I'm not sure I can tell which pic is which? Order seems different on my phone.

Theres a lot of benefit to having the stem holder, something the solo lacks and can be annoying to deal with. Its especially nice you can have a packed stem, and stir it mid session. But if the whole unit isn't pocketable like that anyway, it may not mater? If its more of a home portable, it is still nice to have a built in holder, and the rounding does look to help with the ergonomics quite well.

If the schematics pic is the one with two batteries and no holder, it does looks nice and super ergonomic, and especially with a shorter stem, and even a metal or wooden one, it would be super portable (ofcourse not as much as the single battery version will be, but that is a maybe down the line thing, nothing to focus too much on now, most people will want full power especially when its a new device)

I really can see the benefits of both options here... This is a tough one

Btw @KeroZen Elevape battery is pretty impressive, its just always in standby, but its software maximizes it quite well most agree... Firefly's are shit though lol

Smaller mouthpiece and joint will help in later designs but off the table for his discussion. Yeh it's a tough call. I think I will ask the designer to model it both ways and the. I can show some good models for people to visualize better.

Either way the mouthpiece is secured... Just inside the wood body or clipped to the female joint. It is a little on the large size but with the size reduction it will just barely be pocketable. If not you sure can stuff it in a bag and be on the go with it so although you can argue that it's portability it still will be on the go.