Progression towards the Dark Side or How does your ABV rank?

Hey FC Community ,

I see a need that exists on the forum in regards to those seeking new vaporizers and others comparing ABV "darkness" of their particular setups.

So I thought to start a thread where we could submit pic by pic postings showing the progression from fresh herb to dark brown ABV. I think it would be of value, as there's so much discussion on which vapes extract certain ways, or the most completely, etc... So I think it would be of much value to the community, especially those looking for particular characteristics in a vaporizer unit. (for those who have 20 hit sessions, a pic every few hits could be specified to shorten otherwise lengthy postings).
For example,... (Each item below should have an associated picture showing the condition of the product).

Whip Use or Direct Draw Vapes
1) First a picture of the fresh herbs on white background, then loaded into the device.
2) Picture of product on same white background after first whip hit.
3) Picture of product on same white background after 2nd whip hit.
4) .... 5) .... 6).... (all pictures of progression towards "however" dark of ABV someone wishes to end a session at).
7) Picture of the final ABV on same white background.

Bag Vapes
1) First a picture of the fresh herbs on white background, then loaded into the device.
2) Picture of product on same white background after first bag filled.
3) Picture of product on same white background after 2nd bag filled.
4) etc until session ended.
5) Picture of the final ABV on same white background.

Include Additional Information
Of course, the more info that one were to include in their postings, the better... things like...
* The Vaporizer Unit and Any mods to the Vaporizer
* Weight of the product used during testing.
* Ambient Air Temperature (would make a difference... for example, vaping in Alaska vs. Arizona)
* If you're vaporizer is NOT a bag model, also useful to know if you have Iron Lungs or are more geared
towards Featherweight, as length/strength of draw can impact ABV progression.
* Vaping max temperature used.
* Type of product (strains can make a difference, also difference between top shelf and mids)
* The pictures posted would report on the type of grind (fine, medium, course, none)
* Or any other details that could impact extraction

So what I envisioned is someone who was looking for a vape with particular extraction characteristics (speed of extraction, completeness of extraction, for example) could come to this thread and get a pretty decent idea of where to start focusing within FC on vaporizers or mods that would perform as they desired. Others could find out how to improve extraction of their setups by reviewing the postings of those who have similar equipment configurations, but maybe use different techniques.

One point brought up in discussions with our moderators was the inconsistency of pictures posted, especially in the area of "white balance". In an attempt to equalize pictures that would be posted, there are two remedial steps that should be applied to pictures to be used. First one will provide a basis for comparison amongst all photos, that being ABV photographed against a white background. A standard piece of white paper, no ultra-bright white or glossy, should be used. The second suggestion would be to use Picasa (free photo editing software from Google), along with the instructions on this website on Auto-White Balancing a photograph, to ensure consistency of the photos posted.

(Don't let the white balancing steps scare you off! They're not bad once you review from a lower elevation.. Yeah, pun intended!)

Just to re-emphasize a picture posting requirement to ensure a general understanding, all pictures of ABV should be taken with ABV out of bowl clearly shown on a white piece of paper. The more closely these criteria are followed, the more value the pictures in this thread will be!

Link to Picasa
http://picasa.google.com

Link to White Balance Instructions for Picasa
http://www.howtogeek.com/166236/how-to-fix-poor-white-balance-in-your-photos-with-post-processing/

Links and references to picture hosting websites:
http://imgur.com/
(also, TinyPic, Photobucket, Flickr, Image Shack, PostImage.org)

When I can find the time, I will be posting my entries on the Herbalizer (stock) and the Arizer EQ (modded).... maybe even the Solo (stock).... This doesn't mean anyone should avoid reviews of these units. I would love to see a posting on one of these units that contained some technique or key piece of info that would let me get better extraction, performance, or elevation from my sessions/vaporizers.

Wanted to get this out before Christmas, as some may receive new digital camera, a new vape or other associated toys that can aid in this undertaking. So, who wants to post the first progression from Green to the Dark Side?

If you'd like to contribute to this effort, please try to follow the criteria specified... or future criteria that may be posted as the bugs of the thread are worked out.... Otherwise this thread could wind up in the ABV section of FC. (This may be a tough thread to keep alive, but with a little work/effort could turn out to be a valuable resource as well.)

Oh, and Happy Holidays All! Wishing Santa drops some new vapes and glass your way!


Thanks,
DDave

Woa you seem to be motivated and the idea is good, on paper at least... But I'm suprised no mod chimed in to tell you that judging extraction by ABV color was not the right thing to do.

1) Conduction vapes tend to roast the load more and from my experience and the pictures I've seen in the various threads on this forum, it tends to be darker overall (but quite uniform)

2) Convection vapes tend to produce a lighter ABV, but (at least with some models) they have a higher risk of producing black specks and overall less uniform ABV (or sometimes even a black hole in the center, ex: LSV or Elevape when you don't stir, when the hot air flow is too concentrated and no turbulences are created like they do on the Herbalaire for instance with their holes pattern)

3) I'm under the impression that even with a given conduction vape, you end up with a blacker ABV if you start directly at a high temperature, compared to what you get if you reach that same temperature after doing many intermediate levels. This has to be confirmed by others though, as it's just an impression.

4) Judging when to stop is tricky. I can get my ABV pretty dark if I let it sit for a long time at high temperature, but usually those last hits are super poor (not even mentioning the awful taste) But I mean, if one really wants, it's possible to "insist" for a long while and it will get eventually darker and darker.

5) Some other FC members proposed to judge the extraction on the before vs after weight in the past, and the idea had some merit. But it was problematic because we never start with the same moisture level, and that water weight will be amongst the first sure things to vaporize.

I'm not saying it's impossible, just that it could be more complex than what you expect.

KeroZen said:

Woa you seem to be motivated and the idea is good, on paper at least... But I'm suprised no mod chimed in to tell you that judging extraction by ABV color was not the right thing to do.

1) Conduction vapes tend to roast the load more and from my experience and the pictures I've seen in the various threads on this forum, it tends to be darker overall (but quite uniform)

2) Convection vapes tend to produce a lighter ABV, but (at least with some models) they have a higher risk of producing black specks and overall less uniform ABV (or sometimes even a black hole in the center, ex: LSV or Elevape when you don't stir, when the hot air flow is too concentrated and no turbulences are created like they do on the Herbalaire for instance with their holes pattern)

3) I'm under the impression that even with a given conduction vape, you end up with a blacker ABV if you start directly at a high temperature, compared to what you get if you reach that same temperature after doing many intermediate levels. This has to be confirmed by others though, as it's just an impression.

4) Judging when to stop is tricky. I can get my ABV pretty dark if I let it sit for a long time at high temperature, but usually those last hits are super poor (not even mentioning the awful taste) But I mean, if one really wants, it's possible to "insist" for a long while and it will get eventually darker and darker.

5) Some other FC members proposed to judge the extraction on the before vs after weight in the past, and the idea had some merit. But it was problematic because we never start with the same moisture level, and that water weight will be amongst the first sure things to vaporize.

I'm not saying it's impossible, just that it could be more complex than what you expect.

Click to expand...

and I'm seeing this as a way for people to get an idea, a better idea, of what they should be SEEING when they use a vape. How much, what it looks like, what it means.
Providing personal reporting of what the effects seemed like at each stage will of course, be entirely personal, and yes, ABV color can change due to a myriad of technique differences, but tying ABV color progression to each style of vape's performance.. yeah, that is good.

I like it. Go, @DDave !!

KeroZen said:

Woa you seem to be motivated and the idea is good, on paper at least... But I'm suprised no mod chimed in to tell you that judging extraction by ABV color was not the right thing to do.

1) Conduction vapes tend to roast the load more and from my experience and the pictures I've seen in the various threads on this forum, it tends to be darker overall (but quite uniform)

2) Convection vapes tend to produce a lighter ABV, but (at least with some models) they have a higher risk of producing black specks and overall less uniform ABV (or sometimes even a black hole in the center, ex: LSV or Elevape when you don't stir, when the hot air flow is too concentrated and no turbulences are created like they do on the Herbalaire for instance with their holes pattern)

3) I'm under the impression that even with a given conduction vape, you end up with a blacker ABV if you start directly at a high temperature, compared to what you get if you reach that same temperature after doing many intermediate levels. This has to be confirmed by others though, as it's just an impression.

4) Judging when to stop is tricky. I can get my ABV pretty dark if I let it sit for a long time at high temperature, but usually those last hits are super poor (not even mentioning the awful taste) But I mean, if one really wants, it's possible to "insist" for a long while and it will get eventually darker and darker.

5) Some other FC members proposed to judge the extraction on the before vs after weight in the past, and the idea had some merit. But it was problematic because we never start with the same moisture level, and that water weight will be amongst the first sure things to vaporize.

I'm not saying it's impossible, just that it could be more complex than what you expect.

Click to expand...

@KeroZen, couldn't agree more. I did approach and discuss this with FC moderators and they also pointed out the difficulty of this type of thread topic. I couldn't agree more that it is a task to post a "progression" as described...loading and unloading product at each draw or bag, snapping photos, either jotting down or trying to recall session details/parameters later on. And there are so many variables that can affect the outcome... Yeah, it's a task that will provide a "ballpark" estimate of results. But imagine being a person new to vaporizing. Knowing nothing about the process, one would be able to tap into this thread and get a good start on equipment and techniques...then get a better idea of how they would envision their sessions or usage. Then once they found a unit of interest, they could look up its associated thread to really delve into the details. And even if this thread doesn't make it for it's original purpose, there could be parts of it that are of value... techniques, individual hardware configurations, etc...

In general, a thread like this could have been titled "What's your vape session like?" or "How do you use your setup?", but those topics seemed more appropriately left within the actual threads dedicated to vaporizer units. ABV however is kind of a general commonplace, as all vapes end up producing it and each does so a bit differently.

Thanks for the detailed feedback. It's given me something to think on and also something to test. I'd like to document two sessions for each unit I review. One a low to high temp session and another a high temp all the way through session to see the difference in ABV progression.

Enchantre said:

and I'm seeing this as a way for people to get an idea, a better idea, of what they should be SEEING when they use a vape. How much, what it looks like, what it means.
Providing personal reporting of what the effects seemed like at each stage will of course, be entirely personal, and yes, ABV color can change due to a myriad of technique differences, but tying ABV color progression to each style of vape's performance.. yeah, that is good.

I like it. Go, @DDave !!

Click to expand...

@Enchantre, Yes! Another benefit of this thread will be allowing one to compare their experiences to others, and results... even pick up new techniques to improve their sessions along the way... And if someone isn't getting expected results in their sessions when compared to postings in this thread, session differences could be discussed and areas of lacking addressed.

I made a thread for avb color a couple weeks ago, and it got no posts. Hopefully this one gets some more. If anything, the color is good to know to compare, even if only for people who use the same vape as the avb pictured, since they are all somewhat different.

Is there a mention of telling us about flavor on that hits and fills?

A lot of times some people think the herb taste done earlier than others, I'm curious if flavor affects our decision of when its complete or ready to be save.

KeroZen said:

But I'm suprised no mod chimed in to tell you that judging extraction by ABV color was not the right thing to do.

Click to expand...

The concept for this thread actually has been submitted for our approval, but since it breaks no rules, that wasn't really necessary (although we did appreciate it). The problems involved with something like this have also been mentioned, including the always present issues of picture quality with various cameras and different settings, lighting, etc., as well as computer display resolution.

Hopefully, despite the unavoidable problems involved, the thread can be beneficial. What we don't want to see, due to the rules of this section, is discussion getting off track into comparisons of vape A vs. vape B. General Vaporization is restricted to vapor discussion, not specific products, and if the posts get too much into vaporizer comparisons the thread will be moved to Ask FC.

I can't take pictures easily, but I can tell you that my ABV jar is a wreck of all kinds of abused bud. I generally use one type of vape, it happens to be a Lotus and I will not discuss its performance but rather I'll discuss my performance.
I sometimes vape cautiously, keeping an eye on the darkness of my herb and adjusting accordingly with the torch. However, sometimes I'm in a rush, or vaped like a Mo Fo, or what-have-you and I get a black spot or even burn the shit out of my weed. With the exception of gray ash, which has only happened once, ok maybe twice, I dump it all in the ABV hopper.

If I choose to vape light, then I figure it's more to come back as reclaim someday.

Session Attributes:
* The Vaporizer Unit and Any mods to the Vaporizer
Herbalizer

* Ambient Air Temperature
47F

* If you're vaporizer is NOT a bag model, also useful to know if you have Iron Lungs or are more geared towards Featherweight, as length/strength of draw can impact ABV progression.
As large a hit each time as I could take. Have average lung capacity.

* Vaping max temperature used.
239C throughout the entire session, start to finish

* Type of product (strains can make a difference, also difference between top shelf and mids)
Banana Kush - Grade Mids

* The pictures posted would report on the type of grind (fine, medium, course, none)
See below...

* Or any other details that could impact extraction
Herbalizer whip attached to water tool via Arizer elbow.
Grinder was MFLB grinder, so very fine grind.


Order of Pictures:
1,2,3,4
5,6,7,8

Session Details:
1st Pic shows unprocessed herbs.
2nd Pic is first draw. Starter draw, a bit whispy, full of flavor.
Pics 3-6, nice producing full hits with regular flavor degrade as hits progressed.
Pic 7 now the vapor production really fell to less than 1/2 of that of the other hits, flavor too.
Pic 8 Vapor barely visible when exhaling into LED lamp, taste of burnt popcorn.

Effects:
These were mids, as with the holidays and random unannounced visits from people, I like to keep some lower strength stuff around so not to be completely blazed. Effects were nice and mellow, relaxing.

BabyFacedFinster said:

I can't take pictures easily, but I can tell you that my ABV jar is a wreck of all kinds of abused bud. I generally use one type of vape, it happens to be a Lotus and I will not discuss its performance but rather I'll discuss my performance.
I sometimes vape cautiously, keeping an eye on the darkness of my herb and adjusting accordingly with the torch. However, sometimes I'm in a rush, or vaped like a Mo Fo, or what-have-you and I get a black spot or even burn the shit out of my weed. With the exception of gray ash, which has only happened once, ok maybe twice, I dump it all in the ABV hopper.

If I choose to vape light, then I figure it's more to come back as reclaim someday.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the input @BabyFacedFinster. Can you provide more details into your session? Check the original posting for some criteria... even without pics, details can be of value too... Thanks!

Comparing final color is only good with green/light colored bud. Brown or purple bud will look darker from the start.

That said, a scale would be cool. If someone has a vape they can slowly brown a load with, and take pictures along the way to break up the darkness levels into a 1-5 scale, it would make discussion a lot easier. Instead of saying "chocolate brown" you could say "4" or whatever you were considering "chocolate brown".

DDave said:

The Herbalizer ABV Reviewed​

Session Attributes:
* The Vaporizer Unit and Any mods to the Vaporizer
Herbalizer

* Ambient Air Temperature
47F

* If you're vaporizer is NOT a bag model, also useful to know if you have Iron Lungs or are more geared towards Featherweight, as length/strength of draw can impact ABV progression.
As large a hit each time as I could take. Have average lung capacity.

* Vaping max temperature used.
239C throughout the entire session, start to finish

* Type of product (strains can make a difference, also difference between top shelf and mids)
Banana Kush - Grade Mids

* The pictures posted would report on the type of grind (fine, medium, course, none)
See below...

* Or any other details that could impact extraction
Herbalizer whip attached to water tool via Arizer elbow.
Grinder was MFLB grinder, so very fine grind.

Order of Pictures:
1,2,3,4
5,6,7,8

Session Details:
1st Pic shows unprocessed herbs.
2nd Pic is first draw. Starter draw, a bit whispy, full of flavor.
Pics 3-6, nice producing full hits with regular flavor degrade as hits progressed.
Pic 7 now the vapor production really fell to less than 1/2 of that of the other hits, flavor too.
Pic 8 Vapor barely visible when exhaling into LED lamp, taste of burnt popcorn.

Effects:
These were mids, as with the holidays and random unannounced visits from people, I like to keep some lower strength stuff around so not to be completely blazed. Effects were nice and mellow, relaxing.




Thanks for the input @BabyFacedFinster. Can you provide more details into your session? Check the original posting for some criteria... even without pics, details can be of value too... Thanks!

Click to expand...

Great detailed post.

Your avb is really light tho. That's the max temp on the herbie?

DDave said:

The Herbalizer ABV Reviewed​

Session Attributes:
* The Vaporizer Unit and Any mods to the Vaporizer
Herbalizer

* Ambient Air Temperature
47F

* If you're vaporizer is NOT a bag model, also useful to know if you have Iron Lungs or are more geared towards Featherweight, as length/strength of draw can impact ABV progression.
As large a hit each time as I could take. Have average lung capacity.

* Vaping max temperature used.
239C throughout the entire session, start to finish

* Type of product (strains can make a difference, also difference between top shelf and mids)
Banana Kush - Grade Mids

* The pictures posted would report on the type of grind (fine, medium, course, none)
See below...

* Or any other details that could impact extraction
Herbalizer whip attached to water tool via Arizer elbow.
Grinder was MFLB grinder, so very fine grind.

Order of Pictures:
1,2,3,4
5,6,7,8

Session Details:
1st Pic shows unprocessed herbs.
2nd Pic is first draw. Starter draw, a bit whispy, full of flavor.
Pics 3-6, nice producing full hits with regular flavor degrade as hits progressed.
Pic 7 now the vapor production really fell to less than 1/2 of that of the other hits, flavor too.
Pic 8 Vapor barely visible when exhaling into LED lamp, taste of burnt popcorn.

Effects:
These were mids, as with the holidays and random unannounced visits from people, I like to keep some lower strength stuff around so not to be completely blazed. Effects were nice and mellow, relaxing.




Thanks for the input @BabyFacedFinster. Can you provide more details into your session? Check the original posting for some criteria... even without pics, details can be of value too... Thanks!

Click to expand...

A worthy endeavor that can help one to gauge his/her own vape ABV profile within a range of profiles provided by others' comparable vapes. Perhaps notable, then, is that vapes of a certain brand & model may vary in function from one to the next, though one would hope the variances among them to be within a very small range. Performance noticed outside that range may warrant evaluation of some or all contributing factors. With the added measure of @DDave 's ABV Photo Chart, so long as you feel your vape is producing the effect, efficiency, and resulting ABV profile dialed-in to your liking, all would seem to be good.

EverythingsHazy said:

Comparing final color is only good with green/light colored bud. Brown or purple bud will look darker from the start.

That said, a scale would be cool. If someone has a vape they can slowly brown a load with, and take pictures along the way to break up the darkness levels into a 1-5 scale, it would make discussion a lot easier. Instead of saying "chocolate brown" you could say "4" or whatever you were considering "chocolate brown".


Great detailed post.

Your avb is really light tho. That's the max temp on the herbie?

Click to expand...

Thanks! Yeah, 239C is as high as it goes. On that session, I took the product as far as I prefer to. Not a fan of burnt popcorn taste and like to leave some goodies for edibles/ABV.

EDIT: it wasnt that tough to capture and white balance the photos, so I plan to do other session captures with Herbie using different strains and session parameters.

(Mod Note: Edit window closed)..

Possible further criteria for use when posting pictures.... No Flash?

Anyhow, I was in process of photographing a session on my Arizer EQ when I noticed the pics were equivalent to those I took previously when reviewing the Herbalizer... yet to my eye, the ABV was far darker brown. I was taking the pics with the flash of the camera, so I took one without... quite a difference.

With Flash:


Same photo without Flash used, seems much darker even after White Balancing...


(I know it doesn't look like it, but the above two pictures are the same, just the first one taken with the Flash of the camera, the second not. The shape looks different as the first pic had no shadows due to light sources, the 2nd with only one light source had shadows that appear to impact the shape of the ABV pile)

I need to redo the Herbie Photos I took previously, as the pics with Flash make the ABV seem green-light golden, regardless of how it really looked....

Also, will post a review of the EQ with non-flash pictures...

The next thing to mention is due to the many possible factors that impact posted photographs, it's probably not a good idea to directly compare photos in separate postings. Would probably be best to solely compare the various stages of ABV in individual postings as they should show progressions of the ABV. In other words, comparing photos from different postings wouldn't so much compare Vape Performance and resulting ABV, but would more compare the cameras performance that were used in the shooting.

Stay tuned for further updates...

mod note: This post was copied from Vaporization temperature dependent selection of effects, where it started a major derail. The 8 posts following this one have been moved from that thread.

JamesTiberiousKirk said:

I am late to the party, but this is exceptionally great stuff. I recently bought a second Ascent, just to continue my completely uncontrolled studies. Vaporizing at very low temperatures (a relative concept, I know) is literally blowing my mind. The con of gradually increasing temp during a session (or multiple sessions) seems to be that once you get to 375f, you only extract effects, the flavor was extracted earlier. You greedy flavor pig.

Click to expand...

There is still flavour, but most people don't like it. It's disparagingly called "the burnt popcorn taste". I've never tasted anything at any temperature that reminded me of burnt popcorn, but I do know the taste of high temperature vaping. I swim against the tide, because I find it interesting. I can keep going much longer than some of my friends, who feel that it tastes awful. I think it's an acquired taste, like black coffee, or Scotch. I'd say don't make assumptions based on what other people tell you. Experiment and find out for yourself, it's much more fun.

Well put Pakalolo --- after reading through this thread I find your statement to be the most complete and factual as one can get on the subject in such a succinct post!!! This is really, really complicated stuff that may seem more "cut and dry" temp based when you look at the "research" that is out there. Problem is that research only gives an indication of idea or potential at best because of all the variables when you're working with a complex admixture in reality (not vaping isolates) and so many device to device and extraction/inhalation to extraction/inhalation variability. But this is exactly what makes this thread the most intelligent and useful vapor-related discussion on the entire WWW! So many "vapor/vaporizer" discussions exist with so little discussion related to the actual quality of the extracted and delivered vapor! Everyone contributing and/or reading should pat themselves on the back for caring about these neglected, but ever so important considerations.

General ideas can definitely be drawn about the difference between lower temp partial spectrum and higher temp fuller spectrum (or even hybrid vapor/smoke) extractions, but that's as close as you're going to get without a standardized device that includes a real time temp probe (will be metallic yuk!!!) literally inserted into the herb so that the temp start to finish through the extraction taking into consideration element heat cycling rates, convective and conductive changes due to duration of pull or push rate, ambient environment temp and dew point, wind chill factor (how hard are you pulling and/or is the push will change the apparent temp in flux), thermal mass of chamber and heat source (more or less temp stability relative to the pull/push rates and element cycle rates relative to the sensor cycle rates), amount of substrate relative to size of chamber, oxidation factor across said spectrum due to differences in rate of pull/push and chamber/delivery static air volumes, POLARITY of chamber and heat source (yup I said it --- go get out the chemistry books this is really an ELECTRO-chemistry experiment --- what is the material polarity of the element, extraction chamber and delivery path on your device?), etc, etc all in combination; and I'm sure the more it's thought about....even more etc, etc of complexity as the flow of this thread is demonstrating!

Props to Hippie Dickie for being forthright and straight up regarding the difference between the display temp and the extraction chamber temp on the Herbal Cube. At the end of the day all devices with a LCD or LED temp display have an "estimated" or "adjusted" display temp relative to the actual extraction temp, or more correctly stated, actual extraction temp RANGE achieved during the period of the extraction/inhalation. All analogue devices are simply relative to the dial and that isn't even exact from device to device if manufacturers are going to be straight up and honest. This is why at VRIP we prefer analogue as on our VHWs and simply prefer to rely on the accuracy of the "Human Sensor" and go by preference of rate of pull throughout the inhalation, taste, organoleptics (mouth/throat/lung feel), and the stone age simple indicator relative to the achieved effects: what color did your load carcass or ABV turn out? Adjust temp accordingly. I go lighter brown during the day and darker brown at night before bed for the spectrum changes I'm looking for in addition to simply choosing the materials favoring a day / high functioning spectrum or a night / time to wind it down spectrum on the norm.

I have also messed around quite a bit with low temp barely visible or not even visible "did I get anything" vapor pulls too and if you're not obsessed with the "cloud" fulfillment factor (I admit I generally prefer clean and skim milk large and fulfilling blue clouds myself) you'll be surprised at the effects generated (of course the materials are of paramount importance some will have barely a thousandth of terpene content by weight where real flavor country organic and dirt grown can get to a hundredth or even more by weight). Try experimenting with other plants and substances such as propolis (mixed or by themselves) and the flavor-effect world gets even bigger even though many terpenes will be in common!

But most important to this discussion to never lose account of is that as Pakalolo pointed out it's all about the delivered component "interaction," or as I like to refer to it: the flavor symphony. You can have the same instruments and the heat is the director, but depending upon how he (or she) moves those arms and in what order directing them the actual delivered symphony has a near infinite range of possibilities. In other words, same device, same temp setting, same herb simply altering your pull rates and durations will generate a different "symphony."

I would really like to see someone willing to make the temp prob in the substrate and path of the extraction and inhalation sacrifice in the name of science create a LC/ABV color chip for the relative max temp achieved --- this might be more "scientific" and useful in practice then temp tables. Until then those really interested might want to do it themselves as a more consistent basis for their own experimentation relative to their device readouts/analogue settings and environmental variability.

This is Mark McCoy owner of VRIP by the way and not ShadowVape --- Shadow asked me to read and get in on this thread since it is arguably the most important and germane discussion on FC if not the entire web when it comes to actual vapor QUALITY and most similar to the discussions that have taken place in my office for many years. I can't always type for that long, but needless to say I'm stoked to see this discourse taking place, of course, on FC.com. All Glass/Quartz (neutral polarity) Heating, Extraction, and Delivery Surfaces = Better Flavor and Better Flavor = Better Results, well at least IMH (but well researched O) of course! I love vapor R&D because always looking to improve the Flavor Symphony for the ultimate inhalation is the best part of all my jobs! Give thanks for Pipe Dreams come True!

ShadowVape said:

I would really like to see someone willing to make the temp prob in the substrate and path of the extraction and inhalation sacrifice in the name of science create a LC/ABV color chip for the relative max temp achieved --- this might be more "scientific" and useful in practice then temp tables.

Click to expand...

The problem with this idea (I've discussed this in other threads) is that colour isn't a variable of extraction. It depends on the strain, for one thing. Colour in cannabis comes from chlorophyll, the carotenoids, and the flavonoids, not THC, CBD, or CBN. The proportions of these vary depending on the strain and the way it was cured.

Edit: I didn't meant to negate entirely your thoughtful post, most of which I agree with.

ShadowVape said:

I would really like to see someone willing to make the temp prob in the substrate and path of the extraction

Click to expand...

nice post, Mark!

i have done this (if i understand what you're asking for) - i put a probe in the middle of the herb. i found the herb temp rises to match the displayed temp during the first 5 seconds of the hit. the displayed temp is the hottest point of the heater coil (the middle loop of the ten loops in the heater coil).

and i think the "human sensor" can only go so far ... one of the major questions appearing on FC about vaporizers is, is it working. having a temperature display for the heater answers the question about whether the vape is too hot or too cold ... does it need to be sent back for recalibration. the BBQ thermometer i use cost $3.50 from china.

when i was using an analog controller (potentiometer), the current draw caused null spots to develop in the wiper path, causing drastic changes in performance. since then it has been digital control all the way, baby.

and ALWAYS using glass, and only glass in the vapor path - no metal screens ... neutral polarity (do i win a prize?)

All good stuff guys! And totally agreed Pakalolo the color isn't a function of the extraction per se, but I think it conveys an idea of the actual temp achieved better than approximated readouts for day to day use purposes given the range of devices used because, in this case the VISUAL "human sensor" is pretty damn accurate (except for those unlucky enough to be color blind) and most of the load carcass / ABV leftover is cellulose identical in all strains regardless of cure/moisture content. That said, you'd definitely have to hit it long enough to compensate for differences in cure/moisture content (good point...see always an added complexity here) to be sure you got all that you where going to get at that temp. I still think outside of having a probe of some sort like Hippie Dickie used (undesirable long term even if functional) or a device architecture that enabled you to shoot an IR thermometer in there (I played quite a bit with the IR concept years ago --- still an interesting consideration I'm sure we'll see in the future) having a simple table of load carcass/ABV chips (think pH color strips) would enable one to have a better idea of where the extraction went temp wise and, in turn, the spectrum delivered or not delivered. Plus it would simply look cool! Who's on the mobile app already? iVapeSense TM I can see it already.

I remember years ago having the carcass color discussion with a bro and taking three different flowers that varied in color quite a bit, one was a bright, bright green, another a dark pine like green, and another was yellowish (older so was green at one point just more cured hence the chlorophyll degraded) and vaping all three at the same three different temps (350, 380, and 400F on the Steinel or basically what we referred to at the time as "low temp" "medical" and "edge of smoke" --- these where pre-VHW days --- pre 90% of the devices that exist today days actually) to see how much the finished carcass (in theory mostly dried out cellulose of the same composition, but as Pakalolo pointed out also dried out carotenoids and flavonoids) would vary. Really what we found out was that the length of the extraction at a particular temp made more of a difference in the finished color than the actual starting colors, i.e. if you didn't let it go as long it was slightly lighter and if you hit it longer it was slightly darker relative to the darkest you could get it at that temp, i.e. you hit it well beyond where you needed to or in our case I just blasted one with the HG beyond where I stopped inhaling when the flavor stopped flowing. Besides the one long blast of heat just to see we just took our standard prime it, milk it, stir it and milk it once again VRIP style shallow bowl pack vape (meaning screen on top of the o-ring groove in those days) with probably .25-.3g packed and dumped the load carcass/ABV into little piles to compare --- all in the same hour and half or so long session in the same room with approximately the same ambient temp/humidity. All of the flaves where well cured with two being fresher, hence greener, than the third. If the moisture content differed more though you're right there would likely have been a greater finished color range since we didn't hit any of them longer or shorter by much except for the one we just blasted with the HG, but these three tested at least where real, real close in color tone at the different temps. Three different tones, two of each tone out of the six different piles emerged.

Good deal Hippie Dickie I just will qualify clearly for all the readers that the temp control MUST be more active with LESS thermal mass and can be far LESS active the MORE thermal mass you're working with (not taking a few exotic materials into consideration to be fair) to maintain the relative accuracy regardless of whether it is a digital control and read out or a potentiometer control with simple dial --- THERMAL MASS MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD when temp stability is the consideration! Of course, to have a really small device or a portable device there simply isn't room for much thermal mass so yup digital control with fast sensor and element heat cycle rates makes for more accuracy throughout.

Good point on the frequent "is it working" or "am I getting something" questions. The "Human Sensor" definitely needs to be properly calibrated to be of any consistency or accuracy and that means having the proper technique down for the device and understanding that vapor is really a "less is more" concept in the first place which is pretty alien to the average western mind. Most of our VRIP customers are "Flavor Snob" "Ultra-Qualitarian" and/or "Glass Aficionado" types as OCD as I am who have already tried other vaporizers and simply missed the glass and moisture conditioning ritual and found their way to VRIP so I probably take the experience level consideration for granted sometimes although Shadow will tell you we still get an occasional "it's glowing orange hot, but it's not getting hot enough to vaporize" email because the user isn't keeping the wand sealed in the bowl or is pulling like a Vornado and/or has packed so little that no visible vapor will come unless you ignite it! Which is why if I had to wager a guess I'd still say 80+ % (down from 90+ % a couple of years ago though) of the people using vaporizers today are really inhaling hybrid vapor/smoke because they run it so hot in the name of "white clouds." And while I won't say this is a total defeat of the concept (I'm a firm believer in crawling before you walk and walking before you run) it does mean that people aren't getting as much benefit or as much of the actives delivered if they where to be good with "skim milk blue" full spectrum vapor and taking the time to dial into their device(s) to get to that ultimate of inhalation quality. Let alone be willing to experiment with low temp non visible vapor vapor --- let's call it LTNVVV ha!

Sorry for the long perhaps over detailed ramblings, but I love the discourse and feel it's much over due so excited to see! That and I'm over in Sunny Sweden all winter for the birth of our third (my wife is Swedish - little Axel Finn just born 1.13.15) so have a lot less distractions and more time to read FC than when home in Cali! It was Pacalolo's fault --- when I saw his post a couple back I was like I've got to get "Flavor Symphony" in there....

This thread should be required reading for all vaporists! And I'm still pushing for a color strip --- what up Hippie Dickie you've already got the probe and a good idea of your extraction temp relative to display --- it will be fun! If you're in Cali and close to SF, Peninsula, or Santa Cruz mountains I'd be happy to donate some color varied and lab verified known spectrum organic flowers for the cause when I get back in early March. Would love to check the cube too it looks cool and stoked you're running all glass I had no idea! You win a prize in my book for sure and I'd love to melt some flowers through that baby to check it with this now known! There was a time when I had a production sample of every vaporizer out there many, many years ago --- can't keep up these days with even knowing what's out there, but FC definitely helps the cause!

I spent all afternoon conducting and writing up this experiment and when I get here I see that Mark has covered this pretty thoroughly while I was away. I don't disagree with his analysis and my crude experiment doesn't contradict what he wrote. I'll just leave this here.

Purpose: To determine whether ABV colour can be used as a reliable measure of extraction.

Hypothesis: The strain and how it was cured affects the colour of unvapourized cannabis. Applying the same vapourization conditions to different coloured strains will result in ABV of different colours.

Materials: The Haze Vaporizer V2.5 using both cans and convection screen, 2 fully charged Haze batteries, Orbiter bubbler, stopwatch, .01 scale, Rock Star (RS), and Seaweed (SW, although it might be C-weed), Canon G12, Photoshop CC.

Procedure: Photographed .07g of both RS and SW for baseline colour. For each strain in succession, cooling down between strains: loaded a Haze can with .07g. Heated the Haze to 199°C (390°F) or three lights. Using the stopwatch, waited 15 seconds, drew through the Orbiter for 5 seconds, waited 30 seconds, drew for 5 seconds, waited 30 sec, drew 5 seconds, waited 30 seconds, drew 5 seconds. Turned off the Haze and dumped the ABV.

After cooldown, repeated the above vapourizing procedure using Haze convection screens instead of cans, and heating to 185°C (365°F), or one light.

The battery state and load container were the same for both strains in each run, but the temperature setting was changed. The Orbiter has a restricted draw that delivered constant flow, while the stopwatch ensured the length of each draw was uniform.

Photographed each load of ABV using approximately identical lighting conditions.

Observations: The differences found were not large but they were readily discernible to my eye. To transform these observations into a measurable quantity, for all loads (baseline and ABV) I selected as much of the load as possible without including background. I then used the Blur|Average filter to obtain overall colour of the load. Finally, I measured each sample using L*a*b values and prepared this graphic:


Discussion: I chose Lab colour because it separates luminosity from colour. If you aren't familiar with it, you just need to know that lower L values mean darker loads. From the results, you can see that RS started out lighter than SW, 27 compared to 22. When both strains were vaped at 199°C, however, the variation narrowed, 9 to 7. Interestingly, at 185°C, the variation was 21 to 20. Here's the progression again:


So RS drops 18L while SW drops 15L overall. At 185°C, however, RS has dropped 6L while SW has dropped only 2L. In other words, the colour change curve is different for each strain and while the values are close, they aren't identical.

Another point: we're talking about colour changes and as Mark mentioned, chlorophyll is an important variable. Chlorophyll is green and loses colour with heat. The a value measures how red or green the colour is, with negative values meaning it is more green than red, and 0 meaning that it is neither, or grey. Notice that RS changes from -3a (green) to 2a (red) to 6a for a change of 7. SW starts out with no green at 2a and moves 4 towards red, or a little more than half as far. Remember that we are talking about the overall average for the sample. The SW sample does actually have some green particles, but not nearly enough to affect the average.

Conclusion: There is no doubt that there is a relationship between ABV colour and the heat that has been applied. Indirectly, that is a measure of extraction, however my point is that the relationship is non-linear and not reliable. A poorly cured green strain and a well-cured purple strain, heated identically, won't look the same in most circumstances. After a high heat has been applied long enough, they will converge, but the variability is enough to make the ABV colour unreliable, in my opinion.

pakalolo said:

After a high heat has been applied long enough, they will converge, but the variability is enough to make the ABV colour unreliable, in my opinion.

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Nice work.
FWIW: the colour and popcorn smell of ABV probably has something to do with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maillard_reaction - summarises what cooks have figured out over the last 5000 years or so happens to tastes and colours when you heat complex organic mixtures like bread dough - raw herb is also a complex organic mixture, so even heat short of actual combustion will have similar effects to baking bread I'd guess.

I'm going to guess that plant sugars and starches are what give ABV the colour we all know and love - so not only does the area under the temperature curve of extraction matter, but the amount of sugary/starchy material left in the bud after curing is the raw material for browning - so given a fixed extraction temperature curve, the amount of browning will depend on the amount of sugars available to caramelise?

Given the variability in harvest time/curing that we see here where herb is not legal, it's easy to imagine why ABV colour is not a very reliable index.
Two things I'm pretty sure are reliable:

1) if it's much more brown than the greenish raw material, you probably extracted some of the active material using heat which has caramelised some of the plant sugars.

2) If it's charred black in parts, you probably combusted it; High temperature vaping is more likely to be associated with oxidised sugars and cellulose. Combustion doesn't need flame - high temperature vaping might convey sufficient heat to the material to result in some burning.

As always, YMMV.

This is a very interesting subject, for sure. Thanks to: @pakalolo for sharing your recent experiment with us.

The only way we could really determine an extraction quantitatively would be to run a fresh/abv (before/after vaping) comparative analysis on a chromatography/mass spectrometry setup, and specifically target some key cannabinoids & terpenoids. A good microscope, with a USB camera to check the trichomes, before and after vaping, can help here visually, as well.

The thermal desorption part of what we call vapourizing is intended to heat the substrate enough to melt the waxy shell off our beloved trichomes, thus releasing the oily, volatile goodies from within, and desorbing them into a surrounding, heated air flow, consisting of a mix of volatile gases, semi-volatile aerosols and non-volatile particles.

But since the plant material is mostly cellulose, it will thermally oxidize (or brown) to varying degrees at the same time, depending on the temperatures used. As fubar, mentions, these are the sugars and starches that are mostly responsible for the resulting brown colour. This is also responsible for the particulates being released into the air stream. As the substrate heats, there is also increasing singe and char building on its’ surface, and the brown colour deepens/darkens, as the temperature rises.

I like to look at the colour of my abv as a ballpark indicator/confirmation of the extraction process itself.

As long as the substrate is browned, at least we can confirm that it was exposed to the heat, and that the trichomes in that area were partially or thoroughly extracted. I tend to vape at a lower temperature, mostly for the tastes and effects, but also I prefer to avoid more particulates in my vapour, and would rather just ingest my duff (then or later) to get the full effects of the herb. But this just a personal preference, some prefer (and require) to vape at higher temperatures, and that’s fine, too.

So much more proper testing needs to be done on this amazing plant!

@ShadowVape - i like the Flavor Symphony characterization ... i grok that - there are times i take a full vapor hit and it is just sublime ... the heater is usually set at 410°F, so the extraction sweep is from 360°F to that maximum. slow and steady - maybe a 10 second hit with a fresh air finish. my procedure is a bit more drawn out than your VHW method - about six hits, when the vapor starts to thin out, stir the herb in the vial, and another 6 hits before the vapor is so thin in the tube i can see the red light. hit count depends on dankosity of herb, of course.

i have been extending the "vapor shooter" concept from the 16mm tube to the 25mm tube ... draw a full hit (without clearing the tube) and the tube is full with another hit's worth of vapor - much easier to pass than the cube + glass ... the Cube is really a single user device, but it can feed three tokers. i never pack the vial (nor grind, just shred) - as has been mentioned several times, a loose fill of herb allows the hot air to do a better extraction.

i am getting a very consistent chocolate brown ABV - regardless of herb, although my access to varieties is severely limited. i think this is mostly due to radiant heat effect - the heater coil surrounds the vial and all heat that escapes is redirected back into the vial by the shiny stainless steel heat shield - which is evidently effective since the cube never gets warm. once the vapor thins (red light test) it's done and i toss it. moisture content of the herb is not an issue since the water evaporates first and is gone in minutes (at the most).

i used to live in a redwood forest just outside Felton - off Rt. 9 - when i worked in Palo Alto/Mountain View ... skinny dipping in the San Lorenzo (back in the early 1970s when CA had more water) ... ah, CA in my 20s, who could ask for more - great memories. Alas, i haven't been on a plane since the 1980s - i hear the experience has changed a bit. now i stay high in my digital bunker. i do get to NYC a couple times a year. March, eh? that could happen.

i think i'm rambling now and better stfu.

The human eye is wonderfully adaptive. It can see more contrast in shadows than in highlights, and is most sensitive to yellowish greens if you can see them (some can't). If the lighting has a colour cast, your eye will try to tune it out and can overcome surprisingly large shifts. These characteristics are helpful if you are trying to analyze your ABV by colour, as this graphic shows:


This is an analysis of the Lab colourspace for the ABV experiment I described earlier. The top row is a series of bars, once for each luminosity level (L) from 0 to 31. If you have a good monitor and it is properly adjusted, you will be able to see each individual bar. I'm willing to bet most of you can't distinguish the first half dozen or so bars, and perhaps more. Few people take the time to adjust their monitors, but I digress. The point I wanted to make is that this range covers the entire change in luminosity of the samples I vapourized, and it is obvious how little variation there is.

The next two rows represent the change in luminosity for each ABV sample. Seaweed (SW) started out darker, ended darker, but didn't change as much as Rock Star (RS). Again, these rows are not a continuous gradient, there is a distinct bar for each L value. If you look at the sample pictures in my previous post, you can now appreciate the capability of your eye to distinguish this subtle change. Of course, your eye isn't seeing just the luminosity.

The next two rows show the change in the a values. In Lab, the a channel is a value that describes the red to green variation. Negative values mean more green than red, positive means more red than green, 0 means equal red-green, or grey. As you'd expect, the samples lose any green and get redder as heat is applied. Again, you can see how subtle this change is. The SW barely changes at all.

The next two rows show the change in b values. The b channel describes the blue to yellow variation. Both samples lose yellow and move towards 0 as they heat. The change is a bit larger but still quite subtle.

The last two rows are continuous gradients showing the colour change for each sample. Notice how subtle the change is, despite the obvious differences when you look at the original samples. Your eyes are dealing with these ridiculously small variations and producing results that look fairly different from each other.

I'm sure that the range here would be larger if I used different samples, but I don't think it would expand that much. The differences at all stages are small. I think that when you factor in the ability of your eyes to compensate for shadows and colour casts, you cannot rely on ABV colour to be anything more than a general indication of extraction—and I haven't even begun to talk about the problems introduced by cameras.

Finally, hands up everyone who thought that the Haze probably got all or at least most of the vapour from those ABV samples. Well you're wrong! I mixed them and loaded the FV, then used the FVWPA and my Orbiter. I've gotten five good pulls from it so far and I think there's at least one or two more left.

Some cannabis strains after it's spent is lighter in color than other strains. Such as Skywalker OG. I don't understand enough about the science behind it to know why?

CarolKing said:

Some cannabis strains after it's spent is lighter in color than other strains. Such as Skywalker OG. I don't understand enough about the science behind it to know why?

Click to expand...

I think that is the amount of carbon/cellulose/carbohydrates still present in the herb.. at high heat, these things will darken/caramelize. Conduction heat, as it is transferring directly to the plant (resting against it) will cause darker spots... convection, as it is hot air passing through the herb, doesn't keep the heat on the plant tissues long enough to darken or caramelize any particular spot.

I think it's also related to how amongst the Deciduous tress, when the chlorophyll is gone (in the Fall), the underlying leaf color is exposed... that's the light yellows, browns, reds, and other amazing autumn colors... so, when you've used up the chlorophyll in the cannabis, the underlying plant tissue color gets exposed.. and it can vary.