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MJ and Bipolar Disorder

grokit

well-worn member
I thought that the thc actives are desired for treating psychiatric disorders; I'm pretty sure that the va specifies thc-heavy strains for their ptsd mmj recommendations. I personally find thc to beneficial in treating anxiety. Though I can see that if one's tolerance is not prepared and/or the dose is too high, it could perhaps have the undesired and opposite effect of increasing one's anxiety. Obviously more research is required, as there are so many psychiatric disorders that they probably have different types of mmj treatment needs.
 
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JCat

Well-Known Member
Accessory Maker
I thought that the thc actives are desired for treating psychiatric disorders; I'm pretty sure that the va specifies thc-heavy strains for their ptsd mmj recommendations. I personally find thc to beneficial in treating anxiety. Though I can see that if one's tolerance is not prepared and the dose is too high it could perhaps have the undesired and opposite effect of increasing one's anxiety. Obviously more research is required, as there are so many psychiatric disorders that they probably have different types of mmj treatment needs.
I'm with you here .... I'm BP and I tend to use 80% or so high THC strains (Sativa for energy) ... I use Indicas to knock me down a little when I'm "too high" (from a BP not cannabis perspective)

I find the effect is that I don't ever really feel high the same way other people do (ie. tolerance) .... but I enjoy the stability I get out of it and the short little euphoric/buzz effect that I get early in the morning ... it also seriously decreases my social anxieties as I essentially am high enough (even though I don't really feel it in the traditional sense) that I constantly forget that I'm not comfortable and socially awkward ... I wouldn't dream of walking into a boardroom and dealing with executives if I didn't have a sufficient amounts of THC coursing through my system ... I'd be unable to be effective at my job ... (at least that's my experience ... w/out cannabis I'm either too manic and drive people nuts and overstep my bounds or too down and don't assert myself enough and engage in enough debate to be value-added ...)
 

herbivore21

Well-Known Member
@grokit , you are right to point out that too high a dose will not help with anxiety. I have given myself 2 terrible panic attacks this way, once where I lost consciousness for 5-10 mins and my ex was going to call an ambulance (2 x moderate sized dabs in rapid succession after not having dabbed in a long time seems to reliably do the trick!)

Also, PTSD is quite different to other mental illnesses. It requires very specialist treatment and I would not be recommending mmj to someone with PTSD unless they are undertaking treatment and being seen regularly by their psychologist/psychiatrist who is a trauma specialist.

Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, left untreated by psychological interventions and sometimes medical intervention as well can develop into what is called Dissociative Identity Disorder, what used to be known as multiple personality disorder. Cannabis use may mask symptoms of this disorder as well, so be completely up front with any doctors or psychologists that you use it. Dissociative symptoms can be hard enough to watch out for as a specialist during sessions as it is!

Please, if any FCer has PTSD, please seek treatment with a psychologist or psychiatrist who is specifically trauma specialist if you haven't already. I know that especially exposure therapy (a common treatment avenue when other treatments have been exhausted) can be very hard to go through, but trust me, having been with a partner who had these dissociative symptoms develop out of PTSD really has hit home with the importance of avoiding this development. Dissociative symptoms are as debilitating as psychotic symptoms (ie: schizophrenic hallucinations/delusions).

Back to what we were talking about here though. I am in the midst of what is called a double depression. I have a persistent depressive disorder (dysthymic disorder) coupled with a major depressive episode. I am having significant problems with anxiety and finding that if I even begin to approach the amount of dabs I used to have that I am just a mess with anxiety and panic attacks at times.

I need me some more cbd heavy strains I think, to combat that anxiety. I tend to find I can knock the depression into submission with enough dabs of my THC bomb shatter at the moment, but at the expense of crippling anxiety. Unfortunately, I live in a place where finding CBD strains would be next level needle in haystack type stuff.

:/

By the way I am a psychology graduate and I teach psychology at university for a living, I am a researcher as well, but my research does not pertain to abnormal psychology (the field of psychology which deals with mental illnesses specifically).

Yes, I am aware of the irony of a mentally ill person teaching future psychologists.

@JCat, I find that my THC bomb shatter works great for that confidence socially speaking (actually I would use the terms 'not giving a fuck' to describe it)! I find myself so uninhibited that I have taken out a joint an blazed up (yes I still combust, a dirty old habit) at crowded inner-city pubs in the smoking area on more than one occasion whilst under the influence lol

I wish I could get myself some more CBD in a cost effective, reliable way!

Also guys, be honest with your doctors/specialists about your mj use and any other substance use. If you find that they get too hung up and judgmental on this kind of thing and you can't talk to them about this stuff - find a new doctor/specialist. Effective physical and psychological health care relies on the clinicians having as accurate an understanding of what you put into your body - psychoactive substances are always relevant information for those who are considering your psychological health, and physical health.

You don't want your doctor to diagnose you with something extreme only to realise that the symptoms they saw presenting were just because you went to the dr really stoned that day lol
 
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grokit

well-worn member
Ptsd is at its core a fight or flight adrenal response, I have experienced it and combat stress defines it. The va thinks enough of mmj for ptsd to give it their top blanket recommendation, which is significant because it flies in the face of other federal agencies that actively prohibit its use for any medical purpose whatsoever. I have no idea of how it may affect multiple personality disorders, but I know how it can calm a person down and even create a positive outlook in a person having an attack so it makes sense from that standpoint.
 

herbivore21

Well-Known Member
Ptsd is at its core a fight or flight adrenal response, I have experienced it and combat stress defines it. The va thinks enough of mmj for ptsd to give it their top blanket recommendation, which is significant because it flies in the face of other federal agencies that actively prohibit its use for any medical purpose whatsoever. I have no idea of how it may affect multiple personality disorders, but I know how it can calm a person down and even create a positive outlook in a person having an attack so it makes sense from that standpoint.
I should clarify that I was not at all saying that MMJ is not effective for PTSD, clearly, it can often be effective for treating PTSD related symptoms. :peace:

Still, I was saying that mmj should be used in a setting where the best evidence based treatment and care is being provided. This is with a psychologist or psychiatrist specializing in trauma is indispensible.

I fully support all PTSD sufferers having access to the green of course :)
 

grokit

well-worn member
I should clarify that I was not at all saying that MMJ is not effective for PTSD, clearly, it can often be effective for treating PTSD related symptoms. :peace:

Still, I was saying that mmj should be used in a setting where the best evidence based treatment and care is being provided. This is with a psychologist or psychiatrist specializing in trauma is indispensible.

I fully support all PTSD sufferers having access to the green of course :)
I would agree that a first-time user would benefit from supervision, at least the first time out and perhaps for the first few sessions depending on the individual. But I don't see mmj as a substance that plays a role in transformational therapy like mdma, lsd and psilocybin might. For these I would say that ongoing therapeutic supervision could be quite useful. To me mmj makes more of a mood enhancement/attitude adjustment contribution than a therapeutic one, so supervision is only needed to make sure the person doesn't do too much/have a bad trip. While the more psychedelic/therapeutic drugs need more therapeutic/psychological guidance, if that makes any sense.
 

JCat

Well-Known Member
Accessory Maker
I would agree that a first-time user would benefit from supervision, at least the first time out and perhaps for the first few sessions depending on the individual. But I don't see mmj as a substance that plays a role in transformational therapy like mdma, lsd and psilocybin might. For these I would say that ongoing therapeutic supervision could be quite useful. To me mmj makes more of a mood enhancement/attitude adjustment contribution than a therapeutic one, so supervision is only needed to make sure the person doesn't do too much/have a bad trip. While the more therapeutic drugs need more therapeutic guidance, if that makes any sense.
Perhaps there's some difference in opinions here due to differing levels of intensity of experience ... I consume 2+g/day for many years ... this results in very mild psychoactive effects if any really (much less than very mild alcohol intoxication)

That being said ... if I abstain for 2+ months and then consume lets say 0.2g quickly ... I will likely be close to hallucinating ... (whereas generally speaking if I vaped 1-2g I could easily walk into a boardroom and engage an audience for an hour easy with no one being the wiser ... tolerance has a major impact here ...)
 

grokit

well-worn member
Right, it totally depends on the individual's tolerance at the time. I'm the same way :tup:
 
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herbivore21

Well-Known Member
I would agree that a first-time user would benefit from supervision, at least the first time out and perhaps for the first few sessions depending on the individual. But I don't see mmj as a substance that plays a role in transformational therapy like mdma, lsd and psilocybin might. For these I would say that ongoing therapeutic supervision could be quite useful. To me mmj makes more of a mood enhancement/attitude adjustment contribution than a therapeutic one, so supervision is only needed to make sure the person doesn't do too much/have a bad trip. While the more psychedelic/therapeutic drugs need more therapeutic/psychological guidance, if that makes any sense.
Oh wait a minute, I might not have used the best words to explain what I meant. I mean that you should only engage mmj to treat PTSD if you are regularly seeing a trauma specialist who can monitor the effects and provide other appropriate treatments alongside mmj.

My message was predominately to highlight that those with PTSD be mindful of dissociative symptoms, and more importantly, are seeing a qualified professional trained in identifying the development of these symptoms (as these are even tricky to identify for psychologists and psychiatrists who deal with other kinds of illness).

It is important that the trauma specialist know when mmj is introduced to the treatment regime and to be aware so that they can have clarity in diagnostic evaluation and deciding on the best course of treatment. Remembering that mmj can sometimes give us sensations/experiences which might be confused with dissociative symptoms (but that are IME generally fleeting and harmless, unlike these dissociative illnesses that specialists need to be on the lookout for in survivors with PTSD)!

I am speaking from a point of view of psychologists here, looking for clarity in diagnosis and full disclosure of relevant information so that people aren't being labelled with all kinds of serious illnesses which they may not actually have, for example. I mean absolutely no negativity towards MMJ as a way to treat symptoms of PTSD which I have very high hopes for, if you'll pardon the pun :)

I am also speaking for the interests of survivors, who all need to have access to appropriate specialists who are trained to look out for them, in order to stave off the development of more serious illness (which research literature and the DSM 5 each highlight is a real danger). It is absolutely heartbreaking to watch somebody with dissociative illness try to navigate life!
 

ramacita

New Member
I need me some more cbd heavy strains I think, to combat that anxiety. I tend to find I can knock the depression into submission with enough dabs of my THC bomb shatter at the moment, but at the expense of crippling anxiety. Unfortunately, I live in a place where finding CBD strains would be next level needle in haystack type stuff.

Yikes, that doesn't sound like a very good trade-off. Personally, I think I'd take the depression over the anxiety anyway. At least I could probably sleep to escape a bit. But maybe I haven't hit the lowest lows possible with depression and just don't know any better.

So, don't have easy access to mmj either and certainly not a CBD heavy strain in particular, but I would be willing to do whatever it takes to find a way to get it if I felt strongly that it might be theraputic for symptoms of psychotic delusion and hypo-mania. These are what my son is struggling with. I'm trying, so far without much luck, to gather anecdotal information on the treatment of psychotic symptoms with CBD in particular. His official diagnosis (for whatever the dx is worth--and that is very unclear to me at this point) after 3 psychotic episodes in two years and three concurrent hospitalizations, is schizophrenia.
As his mother, I have plenty of reasons to be "in denial" about that diagnosis, but I don't believe that's why I'm hesitant to use the label. I hate the word, with all its awful stigma, and I feel like a diagnosis can frequently be a false or over-simplification of what's really happening inside a person. Doctors may be aware of needing to have a diagnosis quickly for insurance reasons, but they still go into "treatment protocol" mode, and start treating the "disease" and not the person. In other words, they stop being a physician, a diagnostician.

Earlier in this thread, XRufusX said something along the lines that diagnoses are *supposed* to make it easier to treat a mental health issue systemically. In my son's case, he got on the pharma train and inside of six months went from a super-skinny, energetic, social 18 year-old, to an overweight, housebound space-case with occasional hypo-manic symptoms. He can barely string a sentence together a lot of the time, and I don't know if it's iatrogenic -from the treatments--or part of his existing problem. Or even what the "existing problem" even is. Especially because of all the fucking "treatments". Before his first episode, he was smoking mj (who knows what, exactly--not mm, that's for sure) on a daily basis, and then experimented with MDMA and methamphetamine once or twice. In my opinion, it was this last that triggered the first psychotic episode, although who knows what lie latent before that... if latent mental illness is even a valid concept. And I have some reason to think his incessant use of MJ may have contributed in some way as well, although I have no strong opinion about that. Impossible to know.
From my observations, the process of psychiatric diagnosis--even in the city probably best known for good medical care in the world--is fairly scattershot. As I said, doctors are under pressure to put a name on it fast so they can bill insurance. Then they try a series of drugs, sometimes only for a few *days* each before cross-titrating to the next. Where they ended up--with a drug that has life-threatening side-effects--seemed to be more a matter of what suppressed symptoms, aka as "quieted him down", than anything. To me, the important point is not what will make a person shut up and act normal. That may be a benefit, but if the drugs are obfuscating what's happening internally, as so many of these heavy-hitting anti-psychotics do (and that's the tip of the crap side effects iceberg), what is the point other than the comfort of the people around the sick person. It's like giving speed to children so they will sit still--for OUR benefit. It's an infuriating, disgusting mess. Where are the real physicians, the healers?

Rambling on here. What was my point? Right: I'm hoping someone can engage the topic of CBD as a treatment for symptoms of mental illness--of any kind--but particularly psychotic delusion and/or hypo-mania.

If you made it to the end of this post, thanks for reading. Any feedback is appreciated.
 

herbivore21

Well-Known Member
Yikes, that doesn't sound like a very good trade-off. Personally, I think I'd take the depression over the anxiety anyway. At least I could probably sleep to escape a bit. But maybe I haven't hit the lowest lows possible with depression and just don't know any better.

So, don't have easy access to mmj either and certainly not a CBD heavy strain in particular, but I would be willing to do whatever it takes to find a way to get it if I felt strongly that it might be theraputic for symptoms of psychotic delusion and hypo-mania. These are what my son is struggling with. I'm trying, so far without much luck, to gather anecdotal information on the treatment of psychotic symptoms with CBD in particular. His official diagnosis (for whatever the dx is worth--and that is very unclear to me at this point) after 3 psychotic episodes in two years and three concurrent hospitalizations, is schizophrenia.
As his mother, I have plenty of reasons to be "in denial" about that diagnosis, but I don't believe that's why I'm hesitant to use the label. I hate the word, with all its awful stigma, and I feel like a diagnosis can frequently be a false or over-simplification of what's really happening inside a person. Doctors may be aware of needing to have a diagnosis quickly for insurance reasons, but they still go into "treatment protocol" mode, and start treating the "disease" and not the person. In other words, they stop being a physician, a diagnostician.

Earlier in this thread, XRufusX said something along the lines that diagnoses are *supposed* to make it easier to treat a mental health issue systemically. In my son's case, he got on the pharma train and inside of six months went from a super-skinny, energetic, social 18 year-old, to an overweight, housebound space-case with occasional hypo-manic symptoms. He can barely string a sentence together a lot of the time, and I don't know if it's iatrogenic -from the treatments--or part of his existing problem. Or even what the "existing problem" even is. Especially because of all the fucking "treatments". Before his first episode, he was smoking mj (who knows what, exactly--not mm, that's for sure) on a daily basis, and then experimented with MDMA and methamphetamine once or twice. In my opinion, it was this last that triggered the first psychotic episode, although who knows what lie latent before that... if latent mental illness is even a valid concept. And I have some reason to think his incessant use of MJ may have contributed in some way as well, although I have no strong opinion about that. Impossible to know.
From my observations, the process of psychiatric diagnosis--even in the city probably best known for good medical care in the world--is fairly scattershot. As I said, doctors are under pressure to put a name on it fast so they can bill insurance. Then they try a series of drugs, sometimes only for a few *days* each before cross-titrating to the next. Where they ended up--with a drug that has life-threatening side-effects--seemed to be more a matter of what suppressed symptoms, aka as "quieted him down", than anything. To me, the important point is not what will make a person shut up and act normal. That may be a benefit, but if the drugs are obfuscating what's happening internally, as so many of these heavy-hitting anti-psychotics do (and that's the tip of the crap side effects iceberg), what is the point other than the comfort of the people around the sick person. It's like giving speed to children so they will sit still--for OUR benefit. It's an infuriating, disgusting mess. Where are the real physicians, the healers?

Rambling on here. What was my point? Right: I'm hoping someone can engage the topic of CBD as a treatment for symptoms of mental illness--of any kind--but particularly psychotic delusion and/or hypo-mania.

If you made it to the end of this post, thanks for reading. Any feedback is appreciated.
I am actually just heading out the door right now, but I just wanted to say before I get a chance to really comment that I am so sorry to hear that your son has had this experience!

I truly hope that we can as societies come to grips and be more understanding of people with these symptoms. More importantly, I hope that my research colleagues around the world can develop more effective treatment for the debilitating symptoms of psychotic illness in terms of the patient's wellbeing - not just to try and make the symptoms less obvious so people around the patient are sheltered from seeing what people with psychotic illness have to deal with.
 

grokit

well-worn member
We have effective treatment, freud & jung figured it all out. But real clinical psychoanalysis is extremely expensive, and beyond the reach of most individuals and their insurance plans. It's a supply and demand thing, as actual psychiatrists are in extremely short supply. So it's poison pills or pop psychology, these are the two options most of us are stuck with these days, and unfortunately they are not always adequate.
 

ramacita

New Member
I am actually just heading out the door right now, but I just wanted to say before I get a chance to really comment that I am so sorry to hear that your son has had this experience!

I truly hope that we can as societies come to grips and be more understanding of people with these symptoms. More importantly, I hope that my research colleagues around the world can develop more effective treatment for the debilitating symptoms of psychotic illness in terms of the patient's wellbeing - not just to try and make the symptoms less obvious so people around the patient are sheltered from seeing what people with psychotic illness have to deal with.

Thanks very much herbivore. I am sorry too. And I harbor similar hopes for changes in the way that we tend, by group consensus, to view and react to people struggling with difficult mindstates. I didn't mean to hijack the thread. The original poster started a very engaged (and engaging) discussion here, which I hope continues.
 
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ramacita

New Member
We have effective treatment, freud & jung figured it all out.

In my view this is a bit of an overstatement, but I'm still listening.

But real clinical psychoanalysis is extremely expensive, and beyond the reach of most individuals and their insurance plans.

This certainly true.

So it's poison pills or pop psychology, these are the two options most of us are stuck with these days, and unfortunately they are not always adequate.

I would say you have a somewhat false dichotomy here--although the phrasing is very catchy and I like it :) There is more of a continuum than you imply in terms of what is available for psych healthcare, even in what's available through insurance. (Though this is definitely a difficult issue to speak to since there is no standard for care and there are so many differences in what's covered depending on hwere you live and/or what type of insurance you have.

Many interesting and legitimate theories of the psyche and practices around mental wellness have been developed since Freud & Jung. Humanistic therapies, somatic therapies, creative therapies--even existential therapy, e.g., Victor Frankl (author of "Man's Search for Meaning") and others--are just a few of the potentially valuable methodologies for addressing and helping people through difficult mind-states. Dr. John Breeding, a doctor in Texas who's made a bunch of worthwhile youtube videos (on the psychetruth youtube channel) has a lot to say as far as the current standard of psychiatric care and alternative methodologies for treatment.

i think I can grok what you're saying, though. And I think you and I are in agreement that Big Pharm is a commercial operation driven chiefly by commercial concerns--not human ones--and that most people, sadly, trust it implicitly with their most precious possession.
 

grokit

well-worn member
There was quite a bit of western philosophy after socrates and plato, but it could easily be argued that these two said it all and those that came after were merely taking what they said and expanding on it derivatively.

I feel this way about freud and jung, but will check out some of those youtubes when I get a chance :tup:
 

ramacita

New Member
There was quite a bit of western philosophy after socrates and plato, but it could easily be argued that these two said it all and those that came after were merely taking what they said and expanding on it derivatively.

I feel this way about freud and jung, but will check out some of those youtubes when I get a chance :tup:
I think that would be quite a challenging argument--at least for me!--even if I was convinced it were true. Nietzsche, Heidegger and Marx spring to mind as possible examples of thinkers who (although clearly influenced by Plato, since who can help being so?) have something different to say... ;) :2c:
 

Jurkone

Well-Known Member
[NB: I'm a psychologist but the thoughts I'm posting here are not clinical advice, just my own experience in working with clients who have used MJ and have bipolar disorder or other mood disorder.]

I don't think that there's any direct correlation between MJ use and either improvement or worsening of symptoms. When we're talking about bipolar disorder (it was previously called "manic depression"), the therapeutic intervention is to do what's possible to minimize the duration and intensity of an episode, whether we're talking about depressive or manic.

There are a lot of things that can precipitate a manic episode and/or make it more intense. Things like falling out of routine, sleep disturbance, excessive drug use, eating irregularities, etc. As such, MJ could exacerbate a manic episode or contribute to the onset of one.

At the same time, MJ use doesn't necessarily mean that any of those things happen. Moderate use won't cause problems. But if it starts getting in the way of a regular life routine, it can. Obviously, this is no different from anything else that can be taken to an extreme.

The other side of the coin is that MJ use can contribute and enhance the quality of one's life so it could have an anti-depressant effect. You might find that you're more social, energized and engaged in life. Used effectively, it could be a great reinforcer to making sure that you're getting your shit done, etc. It could help slow you down enough that a manic episode passes without too much collateral damage, as it were.

My clients who use MJ regularly and also have a mood disorder don't seem to be affected in either direct, to be honest. I highly recommend against using it to numb emotions, but the same goes for any activity or substance. Emotions need to be dealt with effectively and not avoided.

All of this is to say that MJ is not a treatment for bipolar disorder but it won't necessarily hurt it, either. Nothing is a good substitute for regular scheduling and routine. If MJ helps you with that, great. It should help overall. If MJ gets in the way of that, then you're making things worse.

I will also say that you need to know what type of MJ you're using. Obviously there are different psychoactive effects from different strains. Do your research and be an educated consumer. Don't just assume that any old MJ will help/hurt. There's a lot of variability. Unfortunately, the research on the effects of different strains is scant so "me-search" is all we've got for now.

Thak you so mucho for your interesting opinion. it's been a bit clarifying :)
 
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canj00digit?

All my days in a daze...
I'm bipolar, generalised anxiety disorder, amongst other things. ;)

Honestly, for me, I've recently come to the revelation that, FOR ME (I stress that), THC without CBD supplements hasn't ever really truly medicated me, but distracted me from my symptoms.

Now I am using quality, strong CBD products, along with 'regular' cannabis as I normally would, and I feel a like I am being properly medicated for the first time. The anxiety that would often come along with the THC has virtually disappeared.

I have come to the conclusion that, while not nearly as entertaining as THC, CBD is actually more important to my mental well being.
 

herbivore21

Well-Known Member
I gave myself a serious bit of anxiety just this morning after a few dabs whilst experimenting with dabbing temps on my sublimator today. I definitely need to get onto this cbd mate!
 

biohacker

Well-Known Member
I was convinced that I had some form of bipolar/mood/anxiety disorder, by a psychiatrist back in the summer, and subsequently convinced myself that vaping regularily helped me live a normal life without the mental anguish. I went through some pretty shitty times, which caused me a bunch of time off of work. My GP gave me the blessing of using weed on a regular basis to keep the cannabinoid levels high in my system, so after a two week break, and shitty withdrawal symptoms (and the resulting lack of sleep) I started micro dosing every few hours which made me feel great. This only lasted for so long until the negative effects started to creep up, destroying my sleep quality and health. I've now abstained completely for a month, and feel like a completely different human. My sleep is incredible, lots of REM rebound and dreaming, and wake up feeling so refreshed and happy every day now. I'm much more productive and have absolutely no signs of mood/anxiety disorder and have made some great accomplishments in both my personal and work life. I'll always vape and enjoy the hobby, just not several times per day or week like before. Just wanted to offer a different perspective and this is just my experience only.
 

canj00digit?

All my days in a daze...
I gave myself a serious bit of anxiety just this morning after a few dabs whilst experimenting with dabbing temps on my sublimator today. I definitely need to get onto this cbd mate!

I know exactly what you mean. I've sent myself into a few serious panic attacks with oil over the years. Learned my lesson there.... mostly ;)

Definitely get onto the CBDs, mate. I guarantee you won't regret it. The private site (you email for password) even has dabable concentrates.
 

herbivore21

Well-Known Member
I have some on the way, I'll let you know how it goes.
Based on the other products so far, I expect to shit myself with joy and have set aside an extra pair of underwear just for the occasion. :p
Cheers brother :) how much did it cost you for the dabbable stuff out of interest?
 
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