Ascent Vaporizer by DaVinci

Davinci_vaporizer said:

The spacers are currently in route to the USA. We are still playing with the buddy rim but we are having some trouble. When we made a lip it caused the mouth piece to be extremely difficult to remove. We are always listening to issues brought up and coming up with solutions. I just moved to China to work in our factory full time so we can actually kick this development in to high gear. Feel free to send me any concerns and we will figure out a solution. We are aware of the air gap in the rim and the spacer is on its way.


The glass is hand blown, we have not changed the manufacturing process, that was just luck of the draw.

Click to expand...

I am pleased with your communications to the forum. I agree it is vital that you remain connected to the forum community.
I am impressed and envious of your being in China. I believe your presence now will have a tremendous effect on maintaining and improving product quality. I now beleive you hear and understand our concerns in the forum, even if you don't directly address each of them. Great work dude!
I hope that my frequent feedback regarding this remarkable, industry leading portable vaporizor, will help you make the consumer experience with the Ascent move closer to perfection.

@KZ

Would an O ring work as a gasket?

There must be glass tubing with an OD slightly smaller than the ID of the Ascent, with it's ID slightly larger than the straw of the Ascent...

Cut to size, it would make a snug adapter for a pure vapor draw?

or am I just blowing air outer me butt?

stark1 said:

@KZ

Would an O ring work as a gasket?

There must be glass tubing with an OD slightly smaller than the ID of the Ascent, with it's ID slightly larger than the straw of the Ascent...

Cut to size, it would make a snug adapter for a pure vapor draw?

or am I just blowing air outer me butt?

Click to expand...

@KeroZen has a fix for this posted back in May, though it's not for the faint of heart. I don't know many users who have actually followed these instructions:

KeroZen said:

Alright folks, I found a cheap and effective fix for the top seal air-leak problem, and the good news is: it comes included in your Ascent box! \o/

I took pictures but won't post them because honnestly you won't need them, just follow the instructions it's easy!

Kero's Ascent Quick Leak-Fix

1) Take one of your silicone straw "caps" included in your kit (the stuff you're supposed to use to cover the drawing straw end)
2) With a razor blade or your favorite sharp tool of choice, cut the thing and keep just the O-ring (you can leave a short bit of the stuff in place as you don't want to weaken the ring by cutting too close)
3) Remove your drawing glass straw
4) Remove carefully your silicone buddy rim (you can use the stir tool for that), mind the power button!
5) Insert the drawing straw into the now removed buddy rim
6) Fit the O-ring around the drawing straw on the bottom (normally hidden) side of the buddy rim
7) Push the straw and O-ring so that only a few milimeters protrude from the buddy rim bottom (this is needed because otherwise the straw gets in the way when putting the buddy rim in place)
8) Carefully put the power button in its location (slot, careful with those tiny wires)
9) Put buddy rim back in place

...and voila! Perfect top seal as the silicone will press the ring against the plastic tube, like a sandwich. Improved my draw, and no more air coming from the electronics!

Click to expand...

@OF : note that he/she is the first user to report no improvement with the puck technic as well... could be the exception that confirms the rule? heh

Maybe we should get back to championing our favorite technic of choice and pretend this never happened?!

@stark1 : not out of your butt at all. In fact the proposed quick fix I posted is based on using the straw cap o-ring part as a joint between the buddy rim and air tunnel (as it's precisely the same ID as the upper straw OD so the fit is perfect) but you can also place the o-ring above the buddy rim and use it to force the silicone down in place (but it's less air tight)

There is glass tubing with a better fit: it's the GonG adapter, which you can use fully retracted down. Note that I think most of us already use the normal glass straw partly retracted only, as it creates the same effect to a lesser extent (I do use it partly retracted + the sandwiched o-ring fix)

EDIT: in fact it's been over a month I didn't touch the upper straw, it stays where it is, just enough to grab it with my lips but not more... and I clean it in place with a q-tip and ISO. The bottom straw is another story though... can be a pain to recclaim.

@R @KZ

GTK, TQ!

@stark1 : I think with your shortcut you summoned @KZ several times, who is another FC member...

'K.

Thank you KeroZen.

It was bound to happen. Apology, @ KZ, heretofore a fellow FC member....

After less than 6 month of use, I am giving up on my Ascent. I have tried glass screens and ed's wooden mouthpieces. I have read hundreds of posts about using the Ascent.

I get better results from my VaporMax 5 which I find easier to use individually and with groups. My device sold on eBay. Hopefully the next owner will have better success than I did with it.

Thanks for all the advice and ideas on using the Ascent. It is a quality device, just not what I am looking for.

Enjoy.

swieder711 said:

After less than 6 month of use, I am giving up on my Ascent. I have tried glass screens and ed's wooden mouthpieces. I have read hundreds of posts about using the Ascent.

I get better results from my VaporMax 5 which I find easier to use individually and with groups. My gently used device along with Ed's blackwood stems are for sale on my Ebay account.

Thanks for all the advice and ideas on using the Ascent. It is a quality device, just not what I am looking for.

Enjoy.

Click to expand...

o
I have to say that I've been quit disappointed myself... I just can't get medicated to the point that I want that I've gotten out of the pax, solo and the karma davinci.... I'm thinkin about selling mine as well

I came to this conclusion after a week. Trying to return it, cannot get properly medicated either.

swieder711 said:

After less than 6 month of use, I am giving up on my Ascent.
Thanks for all the advice and ideas on using the Ascent. It is a quality device, just not what I am looking for.

Click to expand...

Zow237 said:

o
I have to say that I've been quit disappointed myself...

Click to expand...

adam_baumm said:

I came to this conclusion after a week. Trying to return it, cannot get properly medicated either.

Click to expand...

Sorry to see such a flurry of unhappy owners. For sure no vape will be 'right' for all people, one could even argue Ascent is more so than others. I see it as pretty intolerant WRT technique, you have to do it it's way as it were. That includes slow draws and long recovery periods between them. The insight (at least to me) is the temperature in the load is highest just before the hit, it drops from there as cool air enters. I measured drops as much as 100F for a heavy hit. It can take 30 seconds or so to get within 10 or 15 degrees of final IIRC. Experiment with a full minute and see if that doesn't add volume to the hit......and hit it long and slow.

Once the hit starts, there's really no way to keep the center of the load hot since the wall is the only source of 'new heat' and it's made of glass. Still, it's the best (only) source, the alternative is to cool off. This is where the glass flowers come into the game. They store extra heat they can give up during the hit, but more importantly they have lots of surface to do that and are spread throughout the load so it's not just the part of the load against the walls that can support the hit.

That will only take you so far, of course. But it will do an excellent job of fairly quickly extracting all the THC there is in the load. It's hard to ask for more than that, although you could always want cheaper, smaller, faster and so on.

It may also depend on your collection. As an 'everyday, all the time' deal it could well be entirely different than it is for those of us who use it only occasionally. We could well be willing to 'put up with more'. To each his own, and we're lucky to have a lot of very excellent vapes to pick from. Sorry this one doesn't 'fit your pistol', I hope the next one will.

OF

Glass004 said:

I am pleased with your communications to the forum. I agree it is vital that you remain connected to the forum community.
I am impressed and envious of your being in China. I believe your presence now will have a tremendous effect on maintaining and improving product quality. I now beleive you hear and understand our concerns in the forum, even if you don't directly address each of them. Great work dude!
I hope that my frequent feedback regarding this remarkable, industry leading portable vaporizor, will help you make the consumer experience with the Ascent move closer to perfection.

Click to expand...

Yeah I have been here for two weeks today and things are moving along at a rate I didn't think was possible in the states, IE the glass spacers being in route to USA. The good news is now any feedback on the forum will go directly to our manufacturing and R&D team here in China. That's the best part about owning your own factory, you don't have to wait weeks in between emails, skype calls, and then finally manufacturing changes.

@OF : this is where we disagree. You say there is only conduction heating from the walls when I think there is a lof of radiant heat. When the bottom of the device gets hot after 4-5 minutes, the thing really gets going (whatever the start temp)

I know you told me it was not the case, but meanwhile I've read both @Stu and @max going in the same direction (i.e portables are mostly radiant plus a combo of conduction and convection) I also think that the protruding part of the bowl (the few milimeters before the intake holes) is able to heat the incoming air slightly before it enters the bowl, adding more convection. Otherwise why would the DaVinci engineers have added that modification in one of the early revisions? You answered me a larger ceramic bowl would be counter productive iirc, yet they did this mod and I think they know what they are doing, seeing everything as a cost.

If there was only conduction from the walls then the center of the load would be lighter and the edges darker, whereas we all experience a perfectly uniform ABV without ever stirring (that is, when drawing normally, I never tested to waste a bowl by letting it sit unattended for 10 minutes though)

Where I completely agree with you is about the need to get the technic right with this device. You have to follow her rules and not the contrary. This is very annoying when introducing the device to newbies as nearly 100% of the time they say "I got nothing". In comparison the FM5 is braindead easy, you just have to draw.

That being said and to answer @swieder711 above, having two FM5 (the fixed and the 3 temps versions) at home, I can also make a direct comparison and I don't agree: if you start your Ascent directly at 195°C (like the FM5S blue setting) or directly at 210°C (like the FM5 only setting) there is no noticeable difference in the amount of vapor produced *but* the Ascent taste is way better and doesn't degrade so fast as with the FM5. Is it due to the longer vapor path or the fact there is glass, or because there is a different ratio of convection/conduction/radiation in the Ascent, I don't know, but the taste is always better.

If you don't get enough vapor, did you apply one of the proposed fixes to correct your vapor/air ratio? Also do you use glass flowers or the puck technic? If not then try it before selling your device, you might change your mind.

Done Deal. "sold".

I wonder if cubic zirconias might be used for maximizing heat conduction.

KeroZen said:

@OF : this is where we disagree. You say there is only conduction heating from the walls when I think there is a lof of radiant heat.

If there was only conduction from the walls then the center of the load would be lighter and the edges darker, whereas we all experience a perfectly uniform ABV without ever stirring (that is, when drawing normally, I never tested to waste a bowl by letting it sit unattended for 10 minutes though)

Where I completely agree with you is about the need to get the technic right with this device. You have to follow her rules and not the contrary. This is very annoying when introducing the device to newbies as nearly 100% of the time they say "I got nothing".

Click to expand...

I think I explained my reason for dismissing radiation as a significant heat transfer process: Radiation depends on a significant temperature difference to dive the transfer (rate). I'm sorry if I didn't. A fire warms you because it's so much hotter than you, the shivvering camper next to you (same temperature as you) does not. It the ideal (say inside a t dewar (thermos)) the temperatures will match but the rate will be very slow when the temperature difference is small. And we care about just a few degrees where relatively huge quantities of heat are being removed from the system by evaporation of the stuff we want. That is real heat (in calories, not degrees). And it's 'expensive'. Changing state (to a vapor in our case) takes a huge amount of energy compared to changing either phase a degree or two. Thermodynamics tells us we need to move a lot of calories. Using radiation, that means we need a big temperature delta (difference to work with) if we want it in a timely manner. We just don't have that 'hotter source' to radiate when the source is held to 'the magic temperature'.

The 3 modes come with baggage. Conduction calls for lots of contact area and high thermal conductivity of the materials. Convection depends on the flow of 'the working fluid' in addition to surface and material (thermal conductivity mostly again) issues. Radiation depends on emissivity (high for the 'hot side', low on 'the cold side'), and temperature difference (delta) between them, All are subject to the rate heat is being stripped out by evaporation (the reason we came to the party).

I believe the ABV is uniform because between hits the load temperature recovers and reaches uniform temperature. This redistributes the THC throughout the load as it 'simmers'. I put sensors in different parts of the load to confirm this. They clearly showed temperature diving more in the center than edges. You'd get uniform "ABV" if you wrap some herb up in foil and baked it in a 400F oven since eventually everything comes to the same temperature.

I agree, most initial problems/dissatisfaction with performance are from technique. Guys rightly expect it to do what hey think it should, it's just not interested. IMO other vapes are more tolerant of this one.....but this guy does insist on a narrow set of conditions to deliver. Guys who fight that are setting themselves up for disappointment. I think it's a shame that some will abandon the Ascent before that.

OF

@OF : I said "wish me good luck" in the "disagree" thread as a joke because I knew you would come with a well argumented and rational answer. To be honest, I have no clue. I just know that I assume there is radiant heat because I read somewhere on this forum someone making a comparison that sounded about right to me: he said conduction is akin to frying in a pan, whereas radiant heat is similar to cooking in a hoven. When the Ascent has been running for over 5 minutes, the entire bottom becomes quite hot (uncomfortably hot even for some people) and it seems like it's acting to some extent as a heat reflector (and radiator) bouncing some of the energy back into the bowl.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just trying to understand, and it would be pretty interesting if @Davinci_vaporizer could share their own explanation, as they were the ones claiming it was a mix of conduction and convection in the first place (without mentioning radiation though). Note also that the newly released S&B portables are advertized the same way but some german speaking FC member precised that the correct translation of the documentation was not "conduction" but "radiation". But maybe it's a just a terminology issue?

It's puzzling because there must be someting setting the Ascent apart. From what @Ratchett said in his comparison with the Indica for instance, and also from what I experienced with the Pax and the FlowerMate(s), those three mostly conduction vaporizers all have a worse taste and sport the trademark "roasting the load" taste attributed to conduction. But with the Ascent it's less obvious and a lot of people (incuding @stickstones) agree it's one of the best tasting portables (after the Firefly, and maybe the Lotus or Firewood being close, provided they don't ignite/combust small bits?)

So is there really some convection going on? And are you sure there is really zero radiation? Or is it just due to the longer mostly glass vapor path maybe? Sometimes I have the impression that the bowls are so small anyway in these portable vapes that everything is mixed... In my Firewood, it's mosty convection in theory but the heater is so close to the load that after 5 minutes of use everything is scorching hot and it starts cooking it without any air movement. In my FlowerMate it's mostly conduction but the bowl diameter is so small I'm not sure there is a big temperature difference between the walls and the center, half a centimeter away...There are many other threads were the vaporizer is advertized having a particular heating method but in practice it's a mix (even the Solo can cook apparenty when left unattended, same for the INHxx etc)

KeroZen said:

It's puzzling because there must be someting setting the Ascent apart. From what @Ratchett said in his comparison with the Indica for instance, and also from what I experienced with the Pax and the FlowerMate(s), those three mostly conduction vaporizers all have a worse taste and sport the trademark "roasting the load" taste attributed to conduction. But with the Ascent it's less obvious and a lot of people (incuding @stickstones) agree it's one of the best tasting portables (after the Firefly, and maybe the Lotus or Firewood being close, provided they don't ignite/combust small bits?)

So is there really some convection going on? And are you sure there is really zero radiation?

Click to expand...

Yes, it is very puzzling because the general consensus is that conduction vapes don't taste as good as convection. Though the ascent at a very low temperature for the first 2 or 3 draws is the best tasting vaporizer I own.

I believe there is convection going on - I think the culprit is the very low draw-restriction. A nice slow pull creates a mild convection evenly through the entire load.

Thanks to everyone who replied and welcomed me! I appreciate it. Sadly, the vape I just got back earlier last week is malfunctioning too. It was working perfectly too. It was the refurbished unit, but it still was pretty bizarre when the incident happened. I was well into a session when all of a sudden I started getting a very bad taste. My vapor production seemed to increase, but it wasn't that. It turns out my ascent was smoking! There was smoke or vapor of some sort leaking out from the bottom of the unit and coming out through the top. I opened up my vape only to see my herb charred and completely black. I had no idea how that happened. I made sure nothing got in the chamber or anything but I haven't used it since. This is my fifth time sending an Ascent back in. Hopefully this is taken care of soon.

KeroZen said:

@OF : this is where we disagree. You say there is only conduction heating from the walls when I think there is a lof of radiant heat. When the bottom of the device gets hot after 4-5 minutes, the thing really gets going (whatever the start temp)

I know you told me it was not the case, but meanwhile I've read both @Stu and @max going in the same direction (i.e portables are mostly radiant plus a combo of conduction and convection) I also think that the protruding part of the bowl (the few milimeters before the intake holes) is able to heat the incoming air slightly before it enters the bowl, adding more convection. Otherwise why would the DaVinci engineers have added that modification in one of the early revisions? You answered me a larger ceramic bowl would be counter productive iirc, yet they did this mod and I think they know what they are doing, seeing everything as a cost.

If there was only conduction from the walls then the center of the load would be lighter and the edges darker, whereas we all experience a perfectly uniform ABV without ever stirring (that is, when drawing normally, I never tested to waste a bowl by letting it sit unattended for 10 minutes though)

Where I completely agree with you is about the need to get the technic right with this device. You have to follow her rules and not the contrary. This is very annoying when introducing the device to newbies as nearly 100% of the time they say "I got nothing". In comparison the FM5 is braindead easy, you just have to draw.

That being said and to answer @swieder711 above, having two FM5 (the fixed and the 3 temps versions) at home, I can also make a direct comparison and I don't agree: if you start your Ascent directly at 195°C (like the FM5S blue setting) or directly at 210°C (like the FM5 only setting) there is no noticeable difference in the amount of vapor produced *but* the Ascent taste is way better and doesn't degrade so fast as with the FM5. Is it due to the longer vapor path or the fact there is glass, or because there is a different ratio of convection/conduction/radiation in the Ascent, I don't know, but the taste is always better.

If you don't get enough vapor, did you apply one of the proposed fixes to correct your vapor/air ratio? Also do you use glass flowers or the puck technic? If not then try it before selling your device, you might change your mind.

Click to expand...

It is a 100% conduction unit. We are actually looking into reducing the size of the bowl. If the bowl is smaller, no need for a spacer. Less surface area, quicker heat up time, less battery drain, etc..
Without using either glass flowers or spacers the heat is not radiating off of anything besides the ceramic oven. This would mean conduction? There are no coils on the little ceramic lip where the holes are. Radiant heat allows the ceramic to heat thoroughly because of the property of the material. I believe this just helps retain heat not that it offers a convection experience. That is the first thing the air hits when you draw so it would cool off the fastest. Maybe for the first second you get a convection experience but then it would be too cool to continue providing hot air as there are not coils on that piece. Thoughts @OF?

KeroZen said:

So is there really some convection going on? And are you sure there is really zero radiation?

Click to expand...

Yes, there is some convection going on, but it's mostly going the wrong way (making the load cooler, not hotter like in say Cera LL). In convection vapes air is heated in one location and moved to another to carry the heat to the load. That means a source hotter than the load. Only here, in this unique case (although vapes like Solo have some of this going on too I suspect?), the load is as hot as it's going to ever get before the hit. There's noting in the vape above say 400F (or wherever you're set) to provide heat to a 400F load. Thermodynamics, heat flows, it's that flow that does the work. Static temperature is.....well static.

Of course there's some radiation, sorry if I gave any other impression. Just not at useful levels. Anything above absolute zero in theory radiates some. However, in our case that's a trivial part of the system. In fact, at rest, the load is using IR to shed heat (to the oven mostly ironically) at basically the same rate the oven is radiating in. Everything in a kiln gets to the same temperature this way (bouncing IR around). We need a net flow of heat to support vapor production, Radiation rules say that rate is determined by the difference in in source and load (in our case basically zero when the chips are down).

Ascent depends heavily on conduction, IMO it's the only useful attack we have. The design precludes hot rodding convection or radiation.

Them's the rules as I understand them anyway.

Ratchett said:

Yes, it is very puzzling because the general consensus is that conduction vapes don't taste as good as convection. Though the ascent at a very low temperature for the first 2 or 3 draws is the best tasting vaporizer I own.

Click to expand...

I guess I don't see a big mystery here. The clever part of the design is two fold I think. Glass lining helps a lot, but so does excellent temperature control. The hottest part of the vape doesn't get hot enough to burn the goods (unlike most other designs where this is possible), and the load is never exposed to even all of that really. If the Pax never had any part over 400F and you could keep the surface clean I bet it too would taste better? Just a guess, I've never owned a Pax......and given it's rep that's unlikely to change.

In the end heat is heat. How it gets to the load doesn't really matter when it comes to making vapor. Calories by convection are identical to those by conduction. It's what else happens with the heat (beside making vapor) that makes the difference I think?

Davinci_vaporizer said:

It is a 100% conduction unit. We are actually looking into reducing the size of the bowl. If the bowl is smaller, no need for a spacer. Less surface area, quicker heat up time, less battery drain, etc..
Thoughts @OF?

Click to expand...

Thoughts? I think you've got a real winner of an idea there.....that's what I think. There's a significant change in the ratio of volume to surface as you shrink stuff down. One scales as a second power (square), the other as a third power (cube).....big difference. This is why, for instance skinny people 'keep their weight' so well and why little animals eat more per pound of body weight than big ones. A mouse has a LOT of skin for not much meat. He needs a lot of fuel, unlike a horse say. Very small birds, like hummers, burn fuel so fast they need ready sugar, they simply can't wait for other stuff to digest.

So a smaller bowl would mean less herb to heat but more surface (relatively) to do it. As long as you don't go too nuts with it (too tiny a load to make enough vapor) it should be a straight up winner as you describe. Faster, more efficient with power, and needing less bud to fill it?

Bowl shape would also be a factor I'd think. Stay as far from a sphere as possible?

Send me in coach, I'm ready to play in that game!!! See, all we gotta do is get you away from those Lost Wages show girls and you start thinking good........

OF

Davinci_vaporizer said:

It is a 100% conduction unit. We are actually looking into reducing the size of the bowl. If the bowl is smaller, no need for a spacer. Less surface area, quicker heat up time, less battery drain, etc.. @OF?

Click to expand...

I definitely like this idea, I very rarely use the full bowl. I managed to get .7g in there the other day with the mflb finishing grinder, which is definitely more than I personally need in a portable unit.

BuzzDanklin said:

I definitely like this idea, I very rarely use the full bowl. I managed to get .7g in there the other day with the mflb finishing grinder, which is definitely more than I personally need in a portable unit.

Click to expand...

Great point. Heating more herb than you will use for the session is a looser at many levels. Ideally, I guess, you'd like an adjustable (volume) bowl? That, I'd think, would give fastest heat up, longest battery life, best taste and probably save you some herb. We can't have it all in life, but a smaller bowl on Ascent (once the 'right size' had been determined by testing) would be a very attractive thing to many I think.

Line forms to the rear........

OF

OF said:

Great point. Heating more herb than you will use for the session is a looser at many levels. Ideally, I guess, you'd like an adjustable (volume) bowl? That, I'd think, would give fastest heat up, longest battery life, best taste and probably save you some herb. We can't have it all in life, but a smaller bowl on Ascent (once the 'right size' had been determined by testing) would be a very attractive thing to many I think.

Line forms to the rear........

OF

Click to expand...

Hmmmm... An adjustable bowl..

Davinci_vaporizer said:

Hmmmm... An adjustable bowl..

Click to expand...

Yeah, like with inserts maybe....or a movable bottom.... Some scheme to preserve dense pack and solid contact to take full advantage of the Ascent's excellent temperature control.

Fun stuff on the horizon if we luck out. All we gotta do is wait, you're the guy that has to make it happen. Pack a lunch.

OF

Davinci_vaporizer said:

Hmmmm... An adjustable bowl..

Click to expand...

The Ascent Adjustabowl? I like it already