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Vapor : Particle size

Roger D

Vapor Wizard
I was talking about load size and efficiency to a new MV user and I thought it also belonged here
Exactly, use dry to the gland material, let it out for several days in a very dry room. Moisture has to get out of the resin glands if it doesn't you end up with goo allover and not a proper vaporization.

Another thing that is so important with this vape. I'm always catching myself putting more than necessary and I end up coughing like hell, with a thinner vapor and the bowl seems like not so well done. I grabbed a bowl from last night and it was still sticky inside

Some fluffy bud will fill the chamber to the top with .1 while with some rock hard nugs a half filled bowl is already .1 and if you full pack you end up with .2 which is too much, ruins the experience as I stated above.

The best is to use a scale with a good resolution and weight your bowls or at least weight a couple to give you an idea. 100 mg of dry ground good is the ideal size for the MV.

If it's not cloudy enough you may want to try with other varieties or pull a bit harder, it's easier with a water tool.


I was coughing like hell because thermodynamics goes wild in the over packed bowl like Anonymouse stated in his excellent post.
The harshness in overpacked or damp loads results from the intense hot-spotting that occurs under such conditions (either from the uneven flow when overpacked or the localised cooling occuring in still-wet areas as higher-flow zones dry out). Pyrolysis (an exothermic process of chemical degradation which differs from full combustion in that oxygen is not consumed) occurs at these hot spots, and being exothermic, can lead to localised thermal runaway, and thus tiny points of plant material (or, more likely, the graphitic matrix left by local pyrolysis) can be raised very close to, or even over, combustion point. Under these conditions and a hard pull (and thus a lot of negative pressure) these spots will actually start to liberate tiny smoke particles, which are the source of the harshness. Such a session, even through water, can give you a dry cough for days even if you're a regular vaper.

[...]
 
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John Lewus

Well-Known Member
Crazy. This thread is talking about what I have been experimenting with for the past 2 months or so. I posted some pics in the vaping with cotton thread. The new thing I am trying out is four of my female to male adapters with pinches in each one and two hemp filters in different places. It works like a big straw for the Cloud :)
 

420GanjX

Well-Known Member
Crazy. This thread is talking about what I have been experimenting with for the past 2 months or so. I posted some pics in the vaping with cotton thread. The new thing I am trying out is four of my female to male adapters with pinches in each one and two hemp filters in different places. It works like a big straw for the Cloud :)
Like as in all 4 adaptors stacked on top one another for maximum filtration & wand hash collection!? That is so awesome , I can just imagine the epic Frankenstein lookin setup. Props for scientific experimentation, the vast intelligence this forum applies to the awesome act of vaporizing has always amazed me
 
420GanjX,

John Lewus

Well-Known Member
Like as in all 4 adaptors stacked on top one another for maximum filtration & wand hash collection!? That is so awesome , I can just imagine the epic Frankenstein lookin setup. Props for scientific experimentation, the vast intelligence this forum applies to the awesome act of vaporizing has always amazed me

Yes. That is exactly it. This guy named Oregon Mike does ioffers and he made these for me of varying shapes. I was trying to find a nice setup for my hydratube to filter before it gets to the hydratube. That worked great and you can read about it at http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/vaping-with-cotton.9892/page-8#post-481635 and see a pic. I have four of those like a big straw with pinches in each one. I can put multiple filters throughout. Right now I am experimenting with two filters with no water. The glass pinches also capture a lot of those large particles. I figure those are best for edibles since they are more smokey and rougher on my lungs. My plan is to then clean them off the glass with hot whole milk and eat something with it. It works every time.
 

luchiano

Well-Known Member
I was reading up on color temperature of lightbulbs, learned about blue light, as well as white light, and think it can explain the blue and white vapor we experience. It goes like this when you see blue light, or in our case blue vapor, more gas(smaller particles) are diffusing the light. When you see white light(in our case white vapor) its because more larger particles are diffusing the light. In our world this means when we see a blue vapor, we are getting a clean, pure herbal extraction of the substances we want. When we see a white cloud, we are getting more water, and dust, mixed in with the vapor. This is just a theory but, I think this is whats going on.

So, it would seem to me that a slow inhale, and a clean, dust free, room, along with very little moisture in the bud will give a a clean, blue vapor. Even if your herb has moisture in it, you can vape at low temperatures of around 230f, and this will allow the higher temp vapor to stay small which will allow better lung absorption. I'm thinking that having some type of water filter would give an even cleaner extraction because the water will clean out whatever plant fibers, or dust, that get mixed into the vapor. This is if a slow inhale is done. Also, going up in temperature with 10 degree increments will help keep the substances released from the clumping together, and becoming larger. This will waste some of the vapor because the larger the particle size, the higher the chance it will stick to the walls of the bong or whip, as well as the respiratory walls. If you read the link I gave, you will notice it states that gas molecules that are 1nm help this blue light to become more visible. Well, smoke particles are around 0.3-0.5 microns which equals to 300nm-500nm. That explains why smoke is a thick white. If we get a thin blue vapor, we know we are getting pure active ingredients from the herb, and not other unwanted things. We also know we are getting proper absorption into the alveoli, and not condensation onto the walls of the respiratory system.

I wonder if this reason is also why a strong inhale gives white thick clouds? Maybe the strong suction forces more plant fibers to mix in with the vapor, and giving the illusion that a lot is being extracted when in reality its just more dirty, and harder to absorb. If this is true it would mean we can tell how clean our extraction is just by exhaling vapor next to a daylight bulb with a color temperature of 5,000k(if you can get a higher one that is even better). I know cree, and G.E. sell daylight bulbs with this color temperature. Gotta get me some new bulbs.

Here's more on the colors, and particle effecting them:
http://www.webexhibits.org/causesofcolor/14D.html
"The variations of blue across the sky cannot be explained using the framework of the Rayleigh theory, which describes scattering by particles much smaller than the wavelength of the incident light. The Rayleigh theory holds for the scattering of visible light (with wavelengths ranging from roughly 400 to 750 nm) by atmospheric gas molecules with dimensions in the order of 1 nm (1 nanometer equals one billionth of a meter), which are considerably smaller than visible light wavelengths. Blue wavelengths are scattered downwards and the sky appears blue.

However, the molecules of gases are not the only particles contained in the atmosphere. Aerosols, such as particles of dust, smoke, droplets of liquids, minuscule crystals, bacteria, and pollens float in the lower atmosphere. The typical dimensions of such particles can lie anywhere between several hundred and more than ten thousand nanometers. When these aerosols are comparable to, or even larger than, the wavelength of the incident light, a different scattering model applies.


German physicist Gustaf Adolf Mie (1868-1957) investigated this kind of scattering, and established that the intensity of light scattered by bigger particles is practically independent of its wavelength. In Mie scattering, white light remains white after having been scattered by particles such as aerosols. The concentration of the aerosols is highest close to the ground, and so the blue color of the sky is lightest close to the horizon where large aerosols scatter white light. The aerosols are washed out by rain, causing a deepening of the blue color of the sky following rainfall. The blue of the sky appears deeper in the mountains because lower percentages of large aerosols are found at higher altitudes. White light is scattered by large particles, as occurs in fog and clouds."
 
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Anonymouse

Sith I care
The problem with that interpretation is that "vapour" isn't a gas, or at least, for the tiny window where it is, it's also totally invisible. Both smoke and what we refer to as vape are suspensions of tiny solid particles floating about in a gas. Resin is only a true vapour above about 180C or so; as soon as it drops below this temp it condenses into liquid droplets (and becomes the visible "fog" we know and love), and then as it cools further, the droplets also solidify. Depending on circumstance they may be bigger or smaller than smoke particles, but they're generally of the same order of magnitude.

The blue tint is due to light scattering, though. It's a really, really subtle tint, however; more a translucent off-grey than obvious blue. It's why I tend to put the "blue" in quotes when I talk about "blue" vapour.
 

Buildozer

Baked & Fried
@luchiano, Right On! :rockon: Definitely very interesting IMO.. I have wondered what made vapor more or less smooth for a little bit now.. I never considered the link between blue vs white vapor though.. I suspect that a increasingly decreasing temp throughout the duration of the draw makes for more harsh vapor, possibly from more vapor condensation :shrug:, but an increasing or stable temp throughout the duration of the draw makes for smoother vapor :shrug: Just a theory based on nothing solid, just me trying to make sense of observations.. :peace:
 

biohacker

Well-Known Member
Interesting thread and some great posts. Very important to me as i've recently made some discoveries for myself regarding lung irritation. Personally for me I have noticed that the grind consistency makes the biggest different in my comfort...the smaller the particles the worse the irritation into coughing fits. Coffee grinder grind is the worst, and is magnified 10 fold when using primarily convection based vapes like the Cloud and Herbalizer. Way more irritation for me using those than say the E-Nano or Arizer Solo. The least irritation I get is when using whole nugs/bits of pieces broken torn off in the nano or solo. Convection heat can irritate alot as well.

With that being said, the bluest vapour i've ever seen came out of the Herbie, and I understand the smaller particle theory because of that now. Yes, smooth, but as soon as you up the temp the blue turns to white and gets alot harsher. I can get thick white low temp extremely flavourful vapour out of my Nano through water which is my go to daily driver.

Not sure i'll ever return to grinding...my lungs just can't take it. Whole nugs + hot water FTW!
 

luchiano

Well-Known Member
The problem with that interpretation is that "vapour" isn't a gas, or at least, for the tiny window where it is, it's also totally invisible. Both smoke and what we refer to as vape are suspensions of tiny solid particles floating about in a gas. Resin is only a true vapour above about 180C or so; as soon as it drops below this temp it condenses into liquid droplets (and becomes the visible "fog" we know and love), and then as it cools further, the droplets also solidify. Depending on circumstance they may be bigger or smaller than smoke particles, but they're generally of the same order of magnitude.

The blue tint is due to light scattering, though. It's a really, really subtle tint, however; more a translucent off-grey than obvious blue. It's why I tend to put the "blue" in quotes when I talk about "blue" vapour.
You kind of missed the point. Its the size that is important. If you can keep the vapor particles small, you will get a more blue color. It turns white when there are larger particles scattering the light to make it look white. Reread my post to see what I mean. That is why I posted to vape everything in 10 degree increments starting from the lowest temperature you can go. If you were to start your session at a high temperature, everything is released causing the vapor to have a high micron, and give a white color.

If the average micron of cannabis trichomes are between 25-75, you can see how by just extracting the substances within the trichome one at a time, you can lower the vapor micron even further, so that instead of vaping a trichome at its normal micron, you can cause it to be vaped at a much smaller size. A lot of the oils that give flavor boil at low tempratures(in the mid 100f) all the way up to around 460f. There is no one temperature to extract all of the substances in the trichome because it's not just one substance within it. You can start at a high temperature to extract everything but, that opens up other issues that is not dealing with this topic.

This site will help explain why vaping witht he technique I mentioned in my last post will help keep the vapor in a gas state. http://www.chem1.com/acad/webtext/states/states.html

Remember, what separates a gas particle from a solid, and liquid particle, is the fact that the gas particles are separated widely, and gives an invisible perception to the human eye. This picture form the site I linked shows this.
threeStates.png



Also, a hard pull will decrease this effect since a lower atmospheric pressure will expand the air, including the vapor allowing more to clump together, and give a white color.

You also need to make sure you load a loose bowl, that is small because if its tight, and large, the vapor has more of a chance to connect, and clump together as it travels through the herb. You want the vapor to have room to move around, since this will prevent any bouncing into each other, and cause clumping.

In order to get the blue color, you need proper lighting. The average lightbulb will do very little to show it because they give off mostly yellow. You will need a daylight bulb with a color temperature of at least 5,000k.

@Buildozer That's exactly why I want vaporizers that can stay at least within 2 degrees of the set temperature.

@biohacker Just inhale smoother, and slower, it will cause less plant fibers from being released.
 
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EverythingsHazy

Well-Known Member
I have the habit to observe the vapor, in every way possible. Using a strong led flashlight with a very directional beam, with a dark background, I am able to see the level of second hand vapor that is present in the air. I can see each particle of vapor (I have an excellent close up vision -myopic-) so I can judge their average size.
For some reason, seeing individual vapor particles that are moving in the air, clearly enough for their size to be determined->remembered->compared, seems a bit farfetched.
 
EverythingsHazy,

biohacker

Well-Known Member
No not really, the chunkier the grind the easier it is on my lungs....whole nugs are the best, but i'm impatient, and don't really enjoy breaking it down, etc. I dunno, I think I just had some very irritated lungs at the time....i think they are starting to say F-U. Haven't vaped in 20 hours, I think that's like a personal record for me so far this year :D
 
biohacker,

stickstones

Vapor concierge
It makes a lot more sense to me that a fine grind would effect you more so than convection vs. conduction. I notice a lot less phlegm the next morning when I do any of the following: whole nugs, water filtration, cotton/hempfiber filtration. I would bet using water and fiber filtration would help you a lot, regardless of the grind.
 

biohacker

Well-Known Member
What would help me the most....is moderating my consumption....I nearly always only vape through water or hot water.
 
biohacker,

stickstones

Vapor concierge
if you want, try a cotton filter somewhere before the water if you can. I can't do this well with the Evo HT's, but it works great on any bubbler paired with it. I have a double shower perc tube that is smooth, and I use a hemp filter before that as well. Not only do I notice less irritation, but it gives me a way to reclaim that keeps my glass cleaner.
 

olivianewtonjohn

Well-Known Member
if you want, try a cotton filter somewhere before the water if you can. I can't do this well with the Evo HT's, but it works great on any bubbler paired with it. I have a double shower perc tube that is smooth, and I use a hemp filter before that as well. Not only do I notice less irritation, but it gives me a way to reclaim that keeps my glass cleaner.
Do you wrap the filter over the evo gong?
 
olivianewtonjohn,

biohacker

Well-Known Member
I tried a cotton wisp in a couple of vapes and found it affected the airflow too much for my taste. Hot water does the trick for me....the grind makes a difference some times more than others, probably depending on how much i've abused my lungs. But overall, whole buds are much smoother for me than fine grind. I just don't get that visual cloudage satisfaction that I require.
 
biohacker,

stickstones

Vapor concierge
The trick with the air flow is to get the fibers thin enough to not restrict but thick enough to collect. There is a balance to be found, but the thinner filters make for more frequent reclaims! My best filter placement is in my cloud buddy. Placement in the HT sucks.
 

stickstones

Vapor concierge
That's funny! I guess it comes down to what you are used to. I forgot I usually chain hit the Evo, which is why I never removed them. Last week I had a nice relaxing session over a couple of hours and was removing the elb, and it stuck with me even during my chain sessions.
 
stickstones,

John Lewus

Well-Known Member
I have very sensitive lungs myself and have finally found the perfect combination that gives me the absolute smoothest possible hits where I rarely cough. I use a herbie with fan assist and two 18mm male/female adapters with pinches that I stuff hemp fiber into attached to a hydratube. It double filters the hit before even hitting water. I no longer get those lung busting about to die hits and but still get huge manageable hits with almost zero cough. The best part is that the oil that builds up in the hemp fiber is super smooth to hit as well. I go almost a week to really build up the hemp fiber and then throw it in a herbie bowl or ELB. When I do hit that hemp fiber HOLY COW! Just starting at 360F on my herbie the first couple hits are massive but still manageable. I don't know why but by trapping the bigger particles with the hemp fiber I can get super smooth flower hits and then later super smooth hemp fiber hits with the least amount of cough and next morning phlegm. However, if I vape it without the hemp fiber it is a bit more irritating although the hits are slightly bigger. I would rather smaller smoother hits to get the effect I need vs the bigger hits.

Here is why I love this setup.
1. Hemp fibers keep my glass cleaner because less vapor that would condensate on the glass actually makes it to the glass. The bigger particles get trapped in my double hemp fiber filter
2. I waste less because for every 15 flower sessions I get about 2 oil sessions from vaping the fiber
3. This is noticeably smoother to me.
4. Fan assist helps with some of the drag introduced by the fibers. I never understood how some people complain about a little extra resistance but don't claim that their throats are irritated by the harsher hits. I would 1000000x prefer more resistance to smoother hit but maybe that is just me. Some people are cloud chasers. I am a medical user.
5. I don't need to buy oil. The reclaim hits to me feel the exact same as oil hits with slightly different flavor. I have a friend who makes hands down the best oil because his has a natural aromatic taste to them that is not the same with my hemp fiber reclaim but other than his oil this is the next best thing I have found and it is essentially free!

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