Tek Evaporation Chamber - build thread

farscaper · Oct 6, 2014

CrazyDiamond said:
This sounds really good...crap, all this money we've spent trying figure this and that out, we could've just had one of these and add a vacuum pump to it?

well... this thread really culminated in finding it .. I mean it is the evaporation box thread. were just discussing a diffrent form of evaporation now really... icmags got alot of info... but it almost seems muddied intentionally... idk...

CrazyDiamond · Oct 6, 2014

You're right...I shouldn't bitch...science takes time and experimentation and all we discussed here is part of that process...need to follow those rules of science...I think 3 and 4 really apply here big time!

"Only a few centuries ago, a mere second in cosmic time, we knew nothing of where or when we were. Oblivious to the rest of the cosmos, we inhabited a kind of prison, a tiny universe bounded by a nutshell.

How did we escape from the prison? It was the work of generations of searchers who took five simple rules to heart.

(1) Question authority. No idea is true just because someone says so, including me.

(2) Think for yourself. Question yourself. Don't believe anything just because you want to. Believing something doesn't make it so.

(3) Test ideas by the evidence gained from observation and experiment. If a favorite idea fails a well-designed test, it's wrong. Get over it.

(4) Follow the evidence wherever it leads. If you have no evidence, reserve judgment.

And perhaps the most important rule of all...

(5) Remember: you could be wrong. Even the best scientists have been wrong about some things. Newton, Einstein, and every other great scientist in history -- they all made mistakes. Of course they did. They were human.

Science is a way to keep from fooling ourselves, and each other."
Neil deGrasse Tyson

farscaper · Oct 6, 2014

CrazyDiamond said:
You're right...I shouldn't bitch...science takes time and experimentation and all we discussed here is part of that process...need to follow those rules of science...I think 3 and 4 really apply here big time!

"Only a few centuries ago, a mere second in cosmic time, we knew nothing of where or when we were. Oblivious to the rest of the cosmos, we inhabited a kind of prison, a tiny universe bounded by a nutshell.

How did we escape from the prison? It was the work of generations of searchers who took five simple rules to heart.

(1) Question authority. No idea is true just because someone says so, including me.

(2) Think for yourself. Question yourself. Don't believe anything just because you want to. Believing something doesn't make it so.

(3) Test ideas by the evidence gained from observation and experiment. If a favorite idea fails a well-designed test, it's wrong. Get over it.

(4) Follow the evidence wherever it leads. If you have no evidence, reserve judgment.

And perhaps the most important rule of all...

(5) Remember: you could be wrong. Even the best scientists have been wrong about some things. Newton, Einstein, and every other great scientist in history -- they all made mistakes. Of course they did. They were human.

Science is a way to keep from fooling ourselves, and each other."
Neil deGrasse Tyson

lol on a philosophical note...

nothing is true, everything is permitted

and

we are ALL slaves to something.

and back to our regular programming

thank @fft for this tid bit here it was helpful to me.
http://www.polyscienceculinary.com/rotary-vacuum-evaporator.php

CrazyDiamond · Oct 6, 2014

hehehe, that was the first thing I saw when I googled rotary evaporator, lol. And becuase of that video, that's why I asked the question about a separate chiller and separate vacuum.

farscaper · Oct 6, 2014

CrazyDiamond said:
hehehe, that was the first thing I saw when I googled rotary evaporator, lol. And becuase of that video, that's why I asked the question about a separate chiller and separate vacuum.

I see. and it looks like they suggest adding poly glycol as an antifreeze for the chiller.

you can look for aquarium chillers... they are the same thing. they run a couple hundred and up... and the vacuum pump can be had for about 100 too.

CrazyDiamond · Oct 6, 2014

Hmmm...so we're probably looking at about a grand for the entire setup then?
Edit: Wait a sec....since I already have a hot plate, do you think that I could bypass the heated tub attachment and just use my hot plate and a pot of water and possibly save some money, or spend the same and just get better equipment and still use my hot plate and pot of water?

farscaper · Oct 6, 2014

CrazyDiamond said:
Hmmm...so we're probably looking at about a grand for the entire setup then?
Edit: Wait a sec....since I already have a hot plate, do you think that I could bypass the heated tub attachment and just use my hot plate and a pot of water and possibly save some money, or spend the same and just get better equipment and still use my hot plate and pot of water?

idk... alot of the smaller tabletop sized ones the waterbath is connected to the unit. so its all inclusive in several... now if you can find a stand alone rotovap without waterbath you could just use your hot plate and tub for waterbath.

im mainly trying to get opinions right now to ensure my theory isnt batshit crazy.... which it seems not to be the case here.

but yes I think around a grand is going to be put out... @Quetzalcoatl metioned tge prices of co2 units they are over the 10k marker and even for an old school tamisium extractor for closed loop solvents its still 1500 base price... most are well more than 2k... so really this is on the low end of the scale... and using this tech would require just as much knowledge as the others... without any real risk of explosion... making personal use a little safer! imo

under vacuum the only thing I could see being a possibility is an implosion from poor quality glass treatment. which although messy and possibly loud.... totally with safety parameters of indoor use.

not trying to scare... im talking like worst case scenario....

CrazyDiamond · Oct 6, 2014

But wait, this isn't using anything volatile, right? I thought that since you are heating the material and vaporizing the essentials that the vapor then travels to the condenser where it cools and drops your oil into a collector...is my logic sound or am I the batshit crazy one, lol

2clicker · Oct 6, 2014

i still wanna evap w/out any heat.

CrazyDiamond · Oct 6, 2014

@2clicker but using this and a vacuum, you can evap at very low temps to get the vapor and perserve all the essentials, wouldn't you think? At least with this method, no solvents if I'm reading all this correct.

2clicker · Oct 6, 2014

CrazyDiamond said:
@2clicker but using this and a vacuum, you can evap at very low temps to get the vapor and perserve all the essentials, wouldn't you think? At least with this method, no solvents if I'm reading all this correct.

i havent had time to really dig into this stuff yet. i noticed you guys talking about a hot plate so i thought there was heat involved.

CrazyDiamond · Oct 6, 2014

Well, there is...I mentioned the hotplate because I already have a lab grade hot plate and these rotovaps have a "tub" that you fill with water that gets heated...you immerse a glass container under rotation in that tub of water to produce a vapor, that vapor goes to the condensing coils and drops your oil into a collector...again, if I read all this right and interpreted it all correctly.

fft · Oct 6, 2014

CrazyDiamond said:
But wait, this isn't using anything volatile, right? I thought that since you are heating the material and vaporizing the essentials that the vapor then travels to the condenser where it cools and drops your oil into a collector...is my logic sound or am I the batshit crazy one, lol

This is a great thread! Was lured here from the Kleen thread when rotovaps were mentioned. Quick answers to two questions. First, while you don't technically need a solvent you probably won't get an efficient extraction without using one. Ethanol seems to be the solvent of choice for food grade applications. Second, yes you use heat with a rotovap but probably something more in the 40C range as opposed to something that's going to degrade the product. The higher the temp the less vacuum you need to get the goodies.

To me a rotovap extraction has always seemed very close to the ultimate extraction method. Different than CO2 in that you get a wider range of volatiles. Here are a few pages from Modernist Cuisine that discuss the rotovap for food applications:

farscaper · Oct 6, 2014

2clicker said:
i havent had time to really dig into this stuff yet. i noticed you guys talking about a hot plate so i thought there was heat involved.

the waterbath is for tempature stabilization and evaporation regulation.

with this apparatus you control both the temperature and the atmospheric pressure at which the extraction takes place.

the exact specifics are being rationalized at the moment. so its an ongoing though process... apologies if I should have gone elsewhere with it...

I was just thinking evaporation = evaporation. but now I see the error in my context.

whoops. :doh:

its that kinda day anyway, my bad bro

fft said:
This is a great thread! Was lured here from the Kleen thread when rotovaps were mentioned. Quick answers to two questions. First, while you don't technically need a solvent you probably won't get an efficient extraction without using one. Ethanol seems to be the solvent of choice for food grade applications. Second, yes you use heat with a rotovap but probably something more in the 40C range as opposed to something that's going to degrade the product. The higher the temp the less vacuum you need to get the goodies.

To me a rotovap extraction has always seemed very close to the ultimate extraction method. Different than CO2 in that you get a wider range of volatiles. Here are a few pages from Modernist Cuisine that discuss the rotovap for food applications:

I have also seen the suggestion of d-limonene being used as a solvent... but in my reading the practical applicants are using freshly harvested material... so in theory they could be fractionally distilling off each phase... or they could be using the natural moisture in freshly harvested material as hydrosol. thus you end up with a low temp steam distillation of the volatiles that is collected and seperated then the higher temp volitals are collected using a more agressive solvent like eth. this is then vacuum purged from the secondary product and recollected in a cold trap. thus saving solvent.

the two final products are recombined into a final wonder of science...

in theory... perhaps this beast deserves its own thread.

2clicker · Oct 6, 2014

farscaper said:
the waterbath is for tempature stabilization and evaporation regulation.

with this apparatus you control both the temperature and the atmospheric pressure at which the extraction takes place.

the exact specifics are being rationalized at the moment. so its an ongoing though process... apologies if I should have gone elsewhere with it...

I was just thinking evaporation = evaporation. but now I see the error in my context.

whoops.

its that kinda day anyway, my bad bro

I have also seen the suggestion of d-limonene being used as a solvent... but in my reading the practical applicants are using freshly harvested material... so in theory they could be fractionally distilling off each phase... or they could be using the natural moisture in freshly harvested material as hydrosol. thus you end up with a low temp steam distillation of the volatiles that is collected and seperated then the higher temp volitals are collected using a more agressive solvent like eth. this is then vacuum purged from the secondary product and recollected in a cold trap. thus saving solvent.

the two final products are recombined into a final wonder of science...

in theory... perhaps this beast deserves its own thread.

SHEEEEEEIT i dont care. especially since its such good stuff. keep at it!

CrazyDiamond · Oct 6, 2014

Agree...a new thread for rotary evaporation maybe in order......or not, lol. So, we still need solvent with this?...which means we still have the fumes issue even with the vacuum. Now since we are vacuuming, this would pull out the flammable fumes too right? So if that's the case, the output can go to a distiller to reclaim the solvent (EtOH or ISO), correct?
Is my line of thought accurate or, as one of my masters @farscaper says, am I batshit crazy on this?

farscaper · Oct 6, 2014

CrazyDiamond said:
Agree...a new thread for rotary evaporation maybe in order......or not, lol. So, we still need solvent with this?...which means we still have the fumes issue even with the vacuum. Now since we are vacuuming, this would pull out the flammable fumes too right? So if that's the case, the output can go to a distiller to reclaim the solvent (EtOH or ISO), correct?
Is my line of thought accurate or, as one of my masters @farscaper says, am I batshit crazy on this?

the vacuum pump would only pressurize the system. temperature zones create the effective vapor path which is enclosed inside the system.

as fo solvent idk... seems like it depends on weather or not you can use the natural plant hydrosol to extract resin.

if you can then no... the only solvent would be the plants natural steam...

if not then yes you will need ethanol most likely. which sort of defeats the purpose a bit.

CrazyDiamond · Oct 6, 2014

See that's where I'm confused too...I've seen some write ups say it's steam while others mention solvents...and if it's steam, could we use something like this?
http://www.scientific-glass.com/essential-oil-distillation.html

farscaper · Oct 6, 2014

CrazyDiamond said:
See that's where I'm confused too...I've seen some write ups say it's steam while others mention solvents...and if it's steam, could we use something like this?
http://www.scientific-glass.com/essential-oil-distillation.html

still need to be able to enduce vacuum to have low temps and since that is stationary it would need mag stir stick or something.

see table below for some vacummed boiling points. 760 torr is 1 atmosphere. so 40 would be under full vacuum. I need to find a chart for cannabinoids under vacuum and at atmosphere too

Solvent b.p. (760 torr) b.p. (40 torr)
acetonitrile 81.8 oC 7.7 oC
diethyl ether 34.6 oC -27.7oC
ethanol 78.4 o C19 oC
ethyl acetate 77.1 o C9.1 oC
hexane 68.7 oC -2.3 oC
heptane 98.4 oC 22.3 oC
methanol 64.7oC 5.0 oC
water 100 oC 34.0 oC

CrazyDiamond · Oct 6, 2014

Welp, my lab hotplate is a stirrer also, just need the little teflon coated stick...so I could do a setup like that with my hotplate and add a vacuum?

farscaper · Oct 6, 2014

CrazyDiamond said:
Welp, my lab hotplate is a stirrer also, just need the little teflon coated stick...so I could do a setup like that with my hotplate and add a vacuum?

to recollect solvent yes. but as for the rest idk

CrazyDiamond · Oct 6, 2014

C'mon master, get that brain going(j/k)...we're so close

Did you see the other part to that steam kit?
It looks like it will need something to bring in chilled water (like what you mentioned earlier) and I don't see a way to put that kit under vacuum...but we really wouldn't need a vacuum for this since it uses steam. Now that begs, will steam work for what we want?

BTW, that EVS2000 is $399 +35 shipping.

Puffers · Oct 6, 2014

Damn! I was busy this weekend and this thread took off! I am at work right now so I will have to catch up later and expand further.

Steam for extraction..... Is not really suitable to the purpose we are trying to achieve. I would have to look back at some reading on this I have done before but i remember Gray Wolf talking about it.

Microwave Hydrosol extraction like with the Neos-GR by Milestone is apparently a feasible method of extraction I know it washes out the extract pretty thoroughly and that why artificial terpenes are added back in after the extraction. That's a whole different ball of wax then a regular steam distillation.

Water chilling there are some creative solutions to this that can be made pretty cheap by someone. Converting an old water fountain, or similar into a chiller is one example. @farscaper I don't know how much HVAC equipment you have as far as torches, gauges, access to refrigerant and such but converting an old window shaker Ac from an air cooling evap to water cooling wouldn't be very hard with the right tools.

farscaper · Oct 6, 2014

im not feelng super well today do please bare with me.

I think the thing to remember is that in the rotovap apparatus although im saying hydrosol and steam these processes are happening at around 30hg.... which gets confusing for sure when you can boil water at room temp what kind of temp do you need to vaporize thc on plant matter sitting against a glass wall?

at 40 torr were boiling thc at under 100°C
(98°C or 208°F) and thats boil not evaporated.

edit: further evaluation leads me to believe that those that have implemented the system have been performing a combination of things. one of which is to remove the hydrosol from live plants via the rotovap that is refined for terps and added back to a later solvent extracted and purged extract to increase its own natural terp content.

NickDlow · Oct 8, 2014

Ok I'm a dumbass I just want to see if I'm following. The material goes into to glass bulb that is under water. Now without a solvent ur saying basically get the goodies to their respective boiling points and it evaps into another part and is cooled and that's your extract? I don't see the solvent helping because wouldn't the oils be left in the bottom bulb mixed with the material n the solvent be evaped away? I'm no chemist here boys bare with me

Tek Evaporation Chamber - build thread

Well-Known Member

Crosseyed & Painless

Well-Known Member

Crosseyed & Painless

Well-Known Member

Crosseyed & Painless

Well-Known Member

Crosseyed & Painless

Observer

Crosseyed & Painless

Observer

Crosseyed & Painless

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Observer

Crosseyed & Painless

Well-Known Member

Crosseyed & Painless

Well-Known Member

Crosseyed & Painless

Well-Known Member

Crosseyed & Painless

Micro-Climate Mastermind

Well-Known Member

Log Hog