Having a rough time taking a break.

I really believe that it is very common to confuse addiction and obsession, and that most people who think they are addicted to MJ are actually obsessed with it. They are different psychological terms with very different behaviors, the latter being much more mental than physical, but from inside the experience it doesn't matter a whit what it is called.

When I smoked cigarettes habitually I always made damn sure I wouldn't run out. If I was running low late at night I would get up and go out and get some rather than chance running out with my coffee in the morning. I find I do something similar with MJ, even to the point of reducing the amount I consume as I run low as I can't just go out to the convenience store to get it. I do find that having only a combusted hit or 2 is enough to stave off any ill effects. This is the only time I combust.

I don't take intentional breaks very often, but I do get some (hopefully) short ones when I run out. I have been told I am less patient and tolerant and I feel more easily annoyed during those times. But I don't have any physical manifestations of my need that I am aware of.

That is just me, however, and the way my body reacts. I have no doubt that other bodies and brains behave differently. But the physical withdrawal symptoms that someone experiences during withdrawal from heroin or alcohol or meth would appear to be a whole different category. And while I am happy to say that I have never fallen prey to either of these horrible taskmasters, I have helped several people through them and they are something I want to never have to experience from the inside. If I thought that my MJ consumption could EVER lead to that I would find a way to stop immediately. Or so I believe.

lwien said:

Hell, we have a hard time getting treatments provided for ANY mental heath issue, be it addiction or anything else. Taking it from a criminal action to a mental health action is just part of a MUCH bigger problem.

But yeah, our prisons are our modern day psychiatric institutions and THAT needs to change.

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Without being political, I think this is likely to get a little better with the requirement that Obamacare include mental health services and that the DOJ is intending to actively work towards reduction in these bad side effects of efforts to take "criminals" off the street and retroactively reducing some penalties.
I'm a little hopeful on these fronts. Time will tell...

All I can say my brother, is to drink lots of water, lots of fruit and vegetables, seeds, nuts, beans, get plenty of sunlight and rest. Don't beat yourself up mentally, respect yourself physically and stay true to yourself on a spiritual level. Don't have to go cold turkey if you are allowing the symptoms of withdrawal to get to levels of suffering or extreme discomfort, but definitely tone down your usage to avoid a dependance like this in the future.
Peace out man and stay strong! I have been there and I feel for you, but the reward is great!

I thought I would put my thoughts into this thread.

For me, it is hard to say that cannabis is not addictive for many/most/all due to the fact regular smoker/vapers do it everyday. I mean I love lots of activities but vaping cannabis is the only one that I do everyday.

When I was in my teens I have a serious road accident which I should be dead from, and ended up with a lot of broken bones. This was my first experience of opiates with IV morphine (only in hospital) and then tramadol for a number of months after. While I still class this on the mild end of opiate dependency, I got to know what it was like to have to take opiates just to get out of bed and how a slight reduction in dose would have severe effects on your mood and motivation. Though taping the dose down very slowly I got off these painkillers.

The point I am trying to make is this withdrawal is very different from a break from cannabis. However, the biggest challenge from quitting cannabis is PAWS (Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome). I quit cannabis 1 year ago and was done with it. I made it 101 days and then went back to vaping. While I made this choice, there was no way I could carry on my life with a high pressured full time job and not depend on cannabis. I love getting high, and the massive reduction on my useage that vaping helped but I still resent the fact I could not stop altogether.

I have previously quit smoking tobacco and that was a walk in the park compared to my one serious attempt of quitting green. After three weeks I found the serious craving for a cig were gone and with cannabis, the real challenge starts at one month and can last up to TWO YEARS!!!

I honestly feel that the biggest difference is the age you start to experience with cannabis. I started at 12 and know other people from growing up who started at this time, and all of us have had a really tricky time with cannabis, all trying find a way to reduce use and cravings (I keep mentioning vaping but no one is interested!!!). I have met people who didn't start using cannabis till much later in life who seem to have far less of the problems with T-breaks etc that I do.

biohacker said:

@Chill Dude, i've been through the doctors and (psych)....all they wanna do is push pharma's, and I have a choice and that's sticking to the natural herb. T-Breaks do help for a few days, but then i'm right back to where I started, but that's because of the medicinal needs. So basically the psych said NEVER to stop cold turkey and to withdraw like SSRI's for a period of a couple of months, and reduce dosage by something like 30% every 2 weeks or so (there was an exact formula for this). The reason for this is the structural changes (temporary) that occur take a long time to rebound (wake up)....things like melatonin, dopamine, etc. all must restabalize. If I cut it cold cold turkey, my body goes into serious shock and (withdrawal) and IMHO that is a physical addiction, in addition to my mental addiction. This is just my personal experience, and those of many, many others. Yes my withdrawals are harsh, but i'm also a long time chronic daily user. I have stopped on many occassions and the results are the same every time. It sucks, and there is nothing I can do about it except suck it up....i've tried everything, and i've even asked for pharma's to help come off the weed (yes I know it's not opiates, but to my body it is for some reason), and they said it doesn't work like that. It's basically Seroquell or herb. I choose the natural way, but again the doctors don't want me to take a T-break LOL.

@LongIslandmom I am sorry about your mom, and your throat issues......and thanks for your feedback. I know my body well, waking up earlier is not an option when you can't fall asleep to begin with (yes the insomnia is so severe the first week that I don't sleep AT ALL, not even the strongest sleeping pills (Sublinox) works). It's a huge shock to my body, and thus will only ever taper from here on out.

You guys have no idea how much I envy those that don't have withdrawal symptoms...or at least such severe ones. But it's my fault and responsibility, I don't blame the weed, only my abusive relationship with her. The poison is in the dose as with all things IMO.

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Have you tried vaping only in the morning @ low temps with a sativa and then vaping the remains at night for sleep aid (at high temps)?

I am on 3 weeks enforced t-break. I will have throat surgery on thurs. After that it will take at least a month for my throat to recover. MY ENT dr wants me to quit entirely. I don't have the physical withdrawal symptoms that have been discussed here but I am pretty depressed about this whole situation. I know I could turn to edibles but there is something about that just isn't making me look forward to doing it that way. I may make the oil from saved ABV and some fresh herb that I have but I just don't think that it will work that well. I think I was doing the vaporizer wrong and that I was using at too high of a heat.

I'm ok with breaks as long as I know that I will be able to start again. But cutting it out entirely? I know I should be more afraid of possible cancer, losing my voice and everything else and believe me , I am, but I quit so much in Jan after my mom died in December to ensure I would never get to this point and I'm here anyway. It's putting a big strain on my marriage and I just feel like I have no way to relax on the weekends. Discussing this with others is a non starter; they simply don't get it. And my ability to quit tobacco cold turkey and moderate pot to weekends only makes me think that I am not an addict (of course addicts have a hard time with admitting they have a problem) but I am so down over this.

I just helped my husband finish with prostate cancer. He still reaches for his cigeratte and tells me he just can't give it up. Sometimes I long standing marriages you just seem to lose each other along the way. My kids are trying to be really supportive but at 22 and 25 they need to lead their own lives and not worry with their own lives and I am so proud of them. My 14 yr old is mentally handicapped; I don't know how he is even going to understand that Mom can't respond to him for 2 weeks. (He's an awesome child and is developing so well but he can't read; my 22 is legally blind I will have to write really large for him but he is currently working at the largest sports radio station in the NY area after graduating from the U of Michigan - go blue!; my 25 year just graduated law school and is now a prosecutor in the NY area). So I have a lot to be proud of and yet it's still not enough

I'm such a baby. I can't wait till this whole thing is over and if I get good news and the all clear I am rewarding myself with a brand new solo and some of those cheap bubblers from dh gate. I just think with all the bad stuff that has happened this year my # is up and that's why this break feels like there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

It's all I write about on here. Members must think I am a real bummer. And right now I am. Going to the gym soon - oh yeah can't do that for 2 weeks after the surgery (not a good thing to tell someone who dropped 35 pounds last year - haven't gotten off anything since I quit the cigs no matter what I do but still look good)

Try to Stay strong @LongIslandmom you'll be in my thoughts and prayers.

...

Don't beat yourself for being nervous about surgery. Goodness knows that anything like that is disconcerting even when/if fully confident of the results.
In terms of coming back to vaping, everyone's experience is different, but vaping HAS to be easier of your throat/lungs than smoking. It is normal and appropriate to be concerned, but it will probably turn out better than you expect, and it will just be a forced break. And water conditioning will only make it easier to return. I have lived in cities who's air quality was worse than vaping in clean air so it is all relative.

There is a package of good vibes I am sending along with this message. I hope they help.

cybrguy said:

Don't beat yourself for being nervous about surgery. Goodness knows that anything like that is disconcerting even when/if fully confident of the results.
In terms of coming back to vaping, everyone's experience is different, but vaping HAS to be easier of your throat/lungs than smoking. It is normal and appropriate to be concerned, but it will probably turn out better than you expect, and it will just be a forced break. And water conditioning will only make it easier to return. I have lived in cities who's air quality was worse than vaping in clean air so it is all relative.

There is a package of good vibes I am sending along with this message. I hope they help.

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That was such a nice reply. I wish we could all meet up somewhere. This is such a wonderful group of caring people. I am really humbled by everyone's good thoughts. I miss not seeing a Grateful Dead show - now would be the time I would be getting ready for the fall tour. My husband and I could so use that. No matter what was happening in our lives we would both get so excited and happy for it. A good jazz fest in New Orleans would also be something that would lift my spirits. But all of you are doing a pretty good job.

Go Saints

Peace out

Mom, My heart goes out to you with your struggle. Most doctors are not going to agree with using cannabis, even if it's not smoking.

When healed up and you feel ready, start at low heat vaporizing with water filtration. Use a cannabis strain that's easy on the throat. We have several folks out there full of ideas I'm sure. I wouldn't even mention it to Doc.

I don't tell my family Dr that I vape cannabis because I know he wouldn't agree. I had to go to a naturopath to get my mj certification. I can't take anti inflammatories for arthritis pain. I belong to an HMO, they don't agree with using cannabis for pain relief. They will give people pain pills though, very limited quantities. I was given pain pills for a few months, it wasn't very many daily but I'd much rather use cannabis. The pain pills really didn't even help.

The reason for my inability to take anti inflammatories is from kidney damage from having to use them for arthritis pain and inflammation. They are not good for people. When I take them, my kidney function goes down.

They're not very good for your liver either. Besides milk thistle, I take N-Acetylcysteine (NAC) with mine.

grokit said:

They're not very good for your liver either. Besides milk thistle, I take N-Acetylcysteine (NAC) with mine.

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I still don't understand why drs would rather give pain killers instead of pot. Herion use is on the rise because of it. I heard on the news today that 10% of the population drinks 74 drinks / week. That's only an average. That means some drink more. But that stays legal. Tobacco kills so many every year (so glad I quit) and less than 20% of the nation smokes anymore. Try making that illegal - the country would freak. Half of the southern population would go under.

I know I will get thru this; I hope better days are here soon!
Thanks for all the good thoughts.

Sadly I think the answer is the same as it is for many things. It is the money. Drug companies pay doctors with goodies (think iPads and gold clubs) and trips, rather than cash (which would be illegal). While they are rushing to synthesize and concentrate MJ, they can't make money on actual MJ (yet) so they discourage it. Even when it works better.

Not all are dishonest in this way, but many won't read the studies until we force them to. And there is also the difficulty with dosing on MJ that is easier with meds. I think it is all going to change, but it will change very slowly, and we the consumers need the help NOW.

cybrguy said:

Sadly I think the answer is the same as it is for many things. It is the money. Drug companies pay doctors with goodies (think iPads and gold clubs) and trips, rather than cash (which would be illegal).

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I've heard this said before but I'm a bit confused as to how drug companies know what doctors are writing prescriptions for their drugs? They may pay doctors with goodies but how do they track if their "favors" are being reciprocated?

I mean I guess it's possible if there was some kind of feedback loop between the pharmacies and the drug companies as to which doctors are prescribing which drugs, but does that actually happen?

lwien said:

I've heard this said before but I'm a bit confused as to how drug companies know what doctors are writing prescriptions for their drugs? They may pay doctors with goodies but how do they track if their "favors" are being reciprocated?

I mean I guess it's possible if there was some kind of feedback loop between the pharmacies and the drug companies as to which doctors are prescribing which drugs, but does that actually happen?

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It's the drug companies that are really the money behind legalization. States that already MMJ have reduced the amount of RX (except Vermont - they have a real heroine problem there.

The Saints are killing me. This would end anyone's t break

Drug trials is one of the ways. In most cases the patients in drug trials are referred by their doctors and they report back with results (presumably without the patients names). Office auditing info is likely fair game as long as not tied to particular patients. Samples of specific meds and their reorders. The relationship between doctors and pharma has been close and symbiotic forever. I have no doubt that it would be very revealing and disturbing to the public, but vested interests keep it "secret".

A good popular culture example would be the movie "The Fugitive".

LongIslandmom said:

The Saints are killing me. This would end anyone's t break

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Try watching the Bears game...

Chill Dude said:

Btw, I don't think Biohacker mentioned he uses cannabis for any pain syndrome. He mentioned the drug Seroquel which is typically used to treat bipolar depression and major depressive disorder. Therefore, I don't think opiates would be needed in his treatment program.

And Biohacker, you say your tolerance breaks only work for a couple days before your tolerance is back to where it was... Then why take T breaks at all? I certainly wouldn't go through weeks of misery just for 2 or 3 days of lower tolerance. Why? That makes no sense to me.

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I do use cannabis for pain as well. The Seroquel is redundant because it was just one of a dozen drugs the doctor was trying to push...I don't have bipolar depression or tendencies toward depression whatsoever. They can make up disorders for just about anything....I mean fuck, I may turn up and look at the clock on the wall and BAM I have ADD lol. I do however have some anxiety issues, and basically use the cannabis medically (someone mentioned earlier in this thread that even if we don't think we are using medically, we very well can be) for many other conditions.

Why take T-breaks if they only last for a few days of lower tolerance? Because I'm trying my hardest to shake this addition/habit/choice whatever the fuck you wanna call it to a more responsible dose where it's not affecting me negatively anymore.

kimura said:

I am becoming convinced that all you poor souls experiencing opiate-like withdrawal symptoms (not really though because real opiate withdrawal can kill you) are using Cannabis to self-medicate whether you know it or not. Like @Chill Dude said, rebound symptoms are totally different from withdrawal

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I fully agree, and I am in that position...maybe that's why my withdrawal effects are so harsh? My extreme night sweats and daytime cold chills and lack of appetite/nausea are definitely not rebound. Neither is the crippling inability to sleep at all. Sometimes I wonder if people who have single digit body fat have a harder time withdrawing because there isn't a natural ween/taper from THC coming from fat stores? I'm probably way off but the thought occurred.

It sure fucking feels like cannabis withdrawal can kill you when you severely go through it.. and my dr strongly urges a taper of dose every couple of weeks. I've only done cold turkey...never again, my rationale for it was that when I started to taper, I would still feel the withdrawal effects!

lazylathe said:

I am pretty much like @biohacker
If i stop cold turkey i get the night sweats, severe chill episodes, major insomnia and because of those effects i have a really short temper.
I find that tapering down/reducing consumption helps a lot with the above symptoms.

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lazylathe said:

If i had to label what i go through i would say it is a habit and i do not think i am addicted to it in any way, habit meaning something i have conditioned myself to do.

Usually when i get home i think about vaping to relax and ease the days pain and head to my room and medicate. Breaking this routine is fairly easy for me and i can lower my tolerance quickly and without any sever consequences.

I will also do this before going on vacation and have no ill effects not having the herb for a couple of weeks.
Last time i went home i was there for 3 weeks and had no herb, did not even taper off as it was an emergency and i had to leave ASAP.

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Thanks dude, I will never go cold turkey again! It's all about the gradual taper to allow the neurotransmitters to get back to baseline....especially Melatonin!

I know this is a pro-weed forum and all, but I would really like to see what some of the moderate users would think if they abstained completely for only 30 days. I have a feeling some of you may think it's more addicting than you may now think.

Damn, I thought I had a very strong willpower..... i'm humbled by how strong my habit can be. I am going to change, and get this tolerance down without too much discomfort... i'm looking forward to it! lol

This thread has been quite a fascinating read to me!

I have always been the "social" user of weed until recently when i started procuring my own. What brought me to this forum was vaping which i stumbled upon at the suggestion of my daughter when i told her i was essentially vaping nicotine to quit a cigarette habit that took me a few months of attempted cessation to finally admit was indeed an addiction...or perhaps an obsession...

cybrguy said:

I really believe that it is very common to confuse addiction and obsession, and that most people who think they are addicted to MJ are actually obsessed with it. They are different psychological terms with very different behaviors, the latter being much more mental than physical, but from inside the experience it doesn't matter a whit what it is called.

When I smoked cigarettes habitually I always made damn sure I wouldn't run out. If I was running low late at night I would get up and go out and get some rather than chance running out with my coffee in the morning. I find I do something similar with MJ, even to the point of reducing the amount I consume as I run low as I can't just go out to the convenience store to get it.

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In my prior attempts to quit smoking nicotine, i had no physical withdrawal symptoms what so ever...but when i drank a beer or a cup of coffee, the urge to smoke was ridiculous. Now on the vapor cigs, i have consumed far less than i was told i would and yet, if i need something with a beverage, it is very handy...

So as this relates to cybrguy's post, i can see how i could become obsessed with making sure i always have weed in the house even to the point of NOT consuming just to be sure i always had enough if i needed it. I used to feel that way about beer/wine even though i rarely consumed daily or solo... Even now, I am considering another procurement to make mini cannabutter cubes which are my preferred method of thc delivery ( i make alot of crazy shit - none of it sweets) ...not because i am running low, but concerned about being without while i still have plenty...even i recognize that as OCD! LOL!

I dont know how to quote multiple people in one reply yet and i know not to make a back to back post so i will just say to those of you struggling in this thread with issues both related to usage and medical ailments, i am sorry and sending good vibes your ways~

Dawntreader said:

This thread has been quite a fascinating read to me!

I have always been the "social" user of weed until recently when i started procuring my own. What brought me to this forum was vaping which i stumbled upon at the suggestion of my daughter when i told her i was essentially vaping nicotine to quit a cigarette habit that took me a few months of attempted cessation to finally admit was indeed an addiction...or perhaps an obsession...


In my prior attempts to quit smoking nicotine, i had no physical withdrawal symptoms what so ever...but when i drank a beer or a cup of coffee, the urge to smoke was ridiculous. Now on the vapor cigs, i have consumed far less than i was told i would and yet, if i need something with a beverage, it is very handy...

So as this relates to cybrguy's post, i can see how i could become obsessed with making sure i always have weed in the house even to the point of NOT consuming just to be sure i always had enough if i needed it. I used to feel that way about beer/wine even though i rarely consumed daily or solo... Even now, I am considering another procurement to make mini cannabutter cubes which are my preferred method of thc delivery ( i make alot of crazy shit - none of it sweets) ...not because i am running low, but concerned about being without while i still have plenty...even i recognize that as OCD! LOL!

I dont know how to quote multiple people in one reply yet and i know not to make a back to back post so i will just say to those of you struggling in this thread with issues both related to usage and medical ailments, i am sorry and sending good vibes your ways~

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Please tell more about the canna butter. I am the fc member with terrible throat issues. I quit cigs no problem. On major t break rite now. It's not the break that is hard - it's the possibility that I may never be able to do it again. I have no problem having it and not smoking it but I like you want to know that I can if I want.

Breaks can be a very good thing. They can clear your head. I hope to keep losing weight. But Friday and Sat nite are just not the same without it. I mean how can you watch Bill Maher without it? And my Saints are enough to drive anyone to reach for something. (That game was a nightmare). This is a good thread because you know you are not alone. Support is always here. There are no judgements made and everyone helps each other. So for all of you out there who just want to get thru the night - hang in there till the morning comes. It's so tough but at this point I have no choice. And enforced breaks are always the worse.

biohacker said:

I would really like to see what some of the moderate users would think if they abstained completely for only 30 days.

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While I think what makes a moderate user is relative, if I can get a 30-day t-break in for whatever reason, my tolerance changes so much it's like an epiphany when I start up again! Totally makes it worth it imo.

LongIslandmom said:

Breaks can be a very good thing.

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Yup

Dawntreader said:

I dont know how to quote multiple people in one reply yet and i know not to make a back to back post so i will just say to those of you struggling in this thread with issues both related to usage and medical ailments, i am sorry and sending good vibes your ways~

Click to expand...

Dawntreader, to quote multiple messages, simply highlight the text of a post that you want to quote, and you'll see an option to quote or reply pop up. Select quote, and repeat for as many posts as you want to address in your reply. Then just select "insert quotes" in the reply field and reply away.

LongIslandmom said:

Please tell more about the canna butter.

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Hello LongIsland Your particular post touched me deeply as we have experienced similar losses and i am truly sending you the best!

As to canna butter...i found a crockpot recipe online using coconut oil, modified it slightly ( decarbolized it prior), tested my personal usage dosage and make cubes of such for ingestion. i take 1 teas/cube with a digestive enzyme and the body high usually starts to blossom 45-60 later and lasts 4-6 solid hours with a very gradual and mellow come down. This is my ultimate preferred high for long time periods of just being awesome doing whatever and the pipe and vape are good additions t my tool kit based on the situation. Actually loving my vapman and getting high from it even though i have not seen the first vapor trail yet!

Back to my edibles...i mix my dosage in with my foods such as home made hummus, bean salads, buttered toast, roasted veggies...you get the picture I use what i strain out of my butter for pasta sauce, soup or rice/quinoa. Many times, i just let the cube melt in my mouth as i drive to the beach

Does this help?

LongIslandmom said:

It's not the break that is hard - it's the possibility that I may never be able to do it again. I have no problem having it and not smoking it but I like you want to know that I can if I want.

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Do you know why I highlighted those words? Statements like that are trying to live in the future, and happiness lies in the present. I totally empathize with your situation, and I know life definitely would be different without it but it's only a tool...and I know I wouldn't die without it.

LongIslandmom said:

I mean how can you watch Bill Maher without it? And my Saints are enough to drive anyone to reach for something.

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Although I do understand, I think finding joy in the things you like without it are most important first, and then the plant enhances already great experiences. These are just my thoughts and opinions, and medical needs are obviously different.

Dawntreader said:

Hello LongIsland Your particular post touched me deeply as we have experienced similar losses and i am truly sending you the best!

As to canna butter...i found a crockpot recipe online using coconut oil, modified it slightly ( decarbolized it prior), tested my personal usage dosage and make cubes of such for ingestion. i take 1 teas/cube with a digestive enzyme and the body high usually starts to blossom 45-60 later and lasts 4-6 solid hours with a very gradual and mellow come down. This is my ultimate preferred high for long time periods of just being awesome doing whatever and the pipe and vape are good additions t my tool kit based on the situation. Actually loving my vapman and getting high from it even though i have not seen the first vapor trail yet!

Back to my edibles...i mix my dosage in with my foods such as home made hummus, bean salads, buttered toast, roasted veggies...you get the picture I use what i strain out of my butter for pasta sauce, soup or rice/quinoa. Many times, i just let the cube melt in my mouth as i drive to the beach

Does this help?

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Yes this helps so much. I have to start doing it. When I try to make I will contact you

That was such a nice post

biohacker said:

Do you know why I highlighted those words? Statements like that are trying to live in the future, and happiness lies in the present. I totally empathize with your situation, and I know life definitely would be different without it but it's only a tool...and I know I wouldn't die without it.



Although I do understand, I think finding joy in the things you like without it are most important first, and then the plant enhances already great experiences. These are just my thoughts and opinions, and medical needs are obviously different.

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All that being said why do you worry if you don't have enough? You post about everything from cigerattes to alcohol. I mean go without it for a while. Just my humble opinion but I found that post to be a little hypocritical. I don't go nuts if I don't have it. Forever is a very long time

LongIslandmom said:

All that being said why do you worry if you don't have enough? You post about everything from cigerattes to alcohol. I mean go without it for a while. Just my humble opinion but I found that post to be a little hypocritical. I don't go nuts if I don't have it. Forever is a very long time

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Are you mixing me up with another member? I didn't say that I worry if I don't have enough, and i'm not sure what you mean about posting about everything from cigs to alcohol? Huh?

Please let me know how i'm being hypocritical?

biohacker said:

Are you mixing me up with another member? I didn't say that I worry if I don't have enough, and i'm not sure what you mean about posting about everything from cigs to alcohol? Huh?

Please let me know how i'm being hypocritical?

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So my bad; please forgive me; it was a post above yours. I am so new to this. It wasn't you. And I wouldn't die without but I do like it very much.

Yes I was wrong. I'm so sorry. I knew I should have read that closer because everyone here has been so supportive and nice. I owned my first computer in 1980 and yet this is my first time on any social media - no Facebook, no twitter no Instagram; I'm pretty much an email girl. So I am really learning the rules of this road and will probably get an inbox message from the tracker.

Everybody makes mistakes; just look at the freaking Saints (my team is killing me)

I hope you accept this