the Michael Brown thread
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Chill Dude
Well-Known Member
Good point!
arf777
No longer dogless
I'm pretty sure the knee jerk reaction by LE there has more to do with the massive amount of public shootings in recent years than it does with race. Remember that 13 year old Mexican kid that was shot by police for carrying an airsoft AK47 down the street? Same thing. People bitched that the gun wasn't real, the kid was only 13, and that it only happened because he was a minority. Sound familiar?
That's all well and good until you can step back and see how the evidence played out (hindsight is a luxury we have here).
Let me ask you... if you're a cop and you see someone carrying this... what do you do? I'll let you guess which one of the two is the real AK47 and which one the 13 year old didn't drop immediately when instructed.
In any case, I'd be willing to bet anyone of any race would have ended up dead in that situation.
My point is that you can't say the police are always in the wrong simply based on personal opinion and emotion. These are multifaceted situations and as such it's very rare for them to be cut and dry like so many here are trying to make it out to be.
IMO taking sides and jumping to conclusions at this point is premature at best.
If this were really true, why hasn't a SINGLE Open Carry lunatic been shot in Texas. Cuz they're white. Or a friend of mine who used to drive around Baltimore on his Harley with an AK across his back? Cuz he's white.
And when I WAS a criminal in Baltimore in the '80s- a very violent time and place - I used to walk down the middle of the street all the time, often with a hatchet hanging on my belt. No cop ever pulled a gun on me despite my long hair, general scruffiness, and the drugs and weapons i was carrying. Because I do not have brown skin.
Caligula
Maximus
Two people were shot -- not by police, authorities said. Four officers were injured. Police arrested at least 31 people.
Police and protesters blamed outside agitators for the gunplay and violence.
"We don't need these antagonizers out here," said protester Jerrell Bourrage, who earlier grabbed one of the bottle-hurling demonstrators and told him to stop. "We need people who can stand out here to the side and still let your word be known."
For almost two hours, police in riot gear formed a barricade and stood watch as hundreds of protesters marched in a single-file line that stretched so long that different parts chanted different slogans.
"Hands up, don't shoot," some repeated. "No justice, no peace," others said. Still others were singing church hymns.
But the scene quickly deteriorated after a handful of protesters threw rocks, bottles and Molotov cocktails at police. Officers responded by firing stun grenades and tear gas canisters.
One group of protesters made a barricade with portable toilets and orange cones. Some ripped out street signs, including a symbolic "Do Not Enter" sign.
Johnson said that a building and an unoccupied house were set on fire, and that his officers came under "heavy gunfire."
"We have been criticized for using SWAT trucks during protests. We did not deploy them into crowds until things deteriorated," he said. "Once again, not a single bullet was fired by officers despite coming under heavy attack."
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/19/us/missouri-teen-shooting/index.html?c=us&page=
@arf777 You are trying to draw a correlation that may or may not be there. Your stipulation that the people in your examples haven't been shot "cause they're white" is rather simplistic, don't you think? You don't seem to be take any other variables into consideration here... and there are quite a few to consider.
BTW, what exactly is your point here? Are you trying to say that a person holding an assault rifle and failing to obey police commands to drop the weapon down will only be shot if they aren't white?
Bottom line here is that someone was holding a very realistic looking model firearm (which was further modified by painting the orange tip of the barrel black), and refused to drop it when confronted by police.
Seems pretty legitimate for the police to react the way they did in that case, regardless of race. The court seems to have agreed as well.
As for the open carry protesters... they do in fact get "harassed" (depending on your POV) by LEO during their protests. Just Google "open carry harassed" and see for yourself.
That being said, they usually let LEO know about their intentions before protesting with their firearms displayed legally in public. That PROBABLY has something to do with them not getting shot.
BTW Im VERY brown, yet I don't get harassed by the police on the regular. This probably has something to do with me not committing crimes or making myself a target by doing things like walking in the middle of a busy roadway with a gun strapped to my back.
Police and protesters blamed outside agitators for the gunplay and violence.
"We don't need these antagonizers out here," said protester Jerrell Bourrage, who earlier grabbed one of the bottle-hurling demonstrators and told him to stop. "We need people who can stand out here to the side and still let your word be known."
For almost two hours, police in riot gear formed a barricade and stood watch as hundreds of protesters marched in a single-file line that stretched so long that different parts chanted different slogans.
"Hands up, don't shoot," some repeated. "No justice, no peace," others said. Still others were singing church hymns.
But the scene quickly deteriorated after a handful of protesters threw rocks, bottles and Molotov cocktails at police. Officers responded by firing stun grenades and tear gas canisters.
One group of protesters made a barricade with portable toilets and orange cones. Some ripped out street signs, including a symbolic "Do Not Enter" sign.
Johnson said that a building and an unoccupied house were set on fire, and that his officers came under "heavy gunfire."
"We have been criticized for using SWAT trucks during protests. We did not deploy them into crowds until things deteriorated," he said. "Once again, not a single bullet was fired by officers despite coming under heavy attack."
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/19/us/missouri-teen-shooting/index.html?c=us&page=
@arf777 You are trying to draw a correlation that may or may not be there. Your stipulation that the people in your examples haven't been shot "cause they're white" is rather simplistic, don't you think? You don't seem to be take any other variables into consideration here... and there are quite a few to consider.
BTW, what exactly is your point here? Are you trying to say that a person holding an assault rifle and failing to obey police commands to drop the weapon down will only be shot if they aren't white?
Bottom line here is that someone was holding a very realistic looking model firearm (which was further modified by painting the orange tip of the barrel black), and refused to drop it when confronted by police.
Seems pretty legitimate for the police to react the way they did in that case, regardless of race. The court seems to have agreed as well.
As for the open carry protesters... they do in fact get "harassed" (depending on your POV) by LEO during their protests. Just Google "open carry harassed" and see for yourself.
That being said, they usually let LEO know about their intentions before protesting with their firearms displayed legally in public. That PROBABLY has something to do with them not getting shot.
BTW Im VERY brown, yet I don't get harassed by the police on the regular. This probably has something to do with me not committing crimes or making myself a target by doing things like walking in the middle of a busy roadway with a gun strapped to my back.
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grokit
well-worn member
The media is as complicit as anybody as far as inflammatory racist bs goes:
"News outlets often choose to run headlines that exhibit an air of disbelief at an alleged white killer's supposed actions. Sometimes, they appear to go out of their way to boost the suspect's character, carrying quotes from relatives or acquaintances that often paint even alleged murderers in a positive light.
Here are a few examples:
WHITE SUSPECT
That's how the Lubbock Avalanche-Journal chose to present the story of Amy Bishop, a former college professor who eventually pleaded guilty to killing three colleagues and wounding three others at a faculty meeting in 2010.
BLACK VICTIM
And that's the headline AL.com ran about the shooting death of a 25-year-old black man in Alabama earlier this year.
WHITE SUSPECT
This is how the Staten Island Advance covered the case of Eric Bellucci, a mentally ill New York man who allegedly killed his parents.
BLACK VICTIM
Meanwhile, NBC News ran this headline during ongoing coverage of the Trayvon Martin killing.
WHITE SUSPECT
This Fox News headline quoted friends shocked that 15-year-old Jared Michael Padgett had entered his high school heavily armed and killed a classmate, injured a teacher and took his own life.
BLACK VICTIM
But in Florida, this headline in the Ledger focused on a police account that made the death of a black 19-year-old seem somehow expected, or at least unsurprising.
WHITE SUSPECT
In the wake of the mass shooting in Santa Barbara, California, earlier this year, the Whittier Daily News offered a headline showing one man's disbelief that Elliot Rodger could have committed such a crime.
BLACK VICTIM
Earlier this month, the New York Daily News ran this headline, carrying comments by the Ohio attorney general that appeared to defend police after killing a black man at a Walmart.
WHITE SUSPECT
This was the headline given to an Associated Press story at Mlive.com about an Ohio teen who later pleaded guilty to a school shooting in which three students were killed and two were wounded.
BLACK VICTIM
But when an unarmed father of two was killed by a police officer while entering a vehicle that contained his own children, the Los Angeles Times served up this claim from officials.
WHITE SUSPECT
In 2008, 18-year-old Ryan Schallenberger was accused of plotting to bomb his South Carolina high school. Ohio's Chronicle Telegram wanted readers to know that he was a straight-A student, running an AP story with this headline.
BLACK VICTIM
And according to the Omaha World-Herald, this is what you needed to know about Julius B. Vaughn, a 19-year-old gunned down in Omaha last year:
WHITE SUSPECT
Kerri Ann Heffernan was charged in 2012 in a string of bank robberies and stores. This headline at Wicked Local wonders how she'd come so far from her days as a smart high school student.
BLACK VICTIM
Of 22-year-old black man Deon Sanders' killing in Ohio earlier this year, WKBN's headline said "gang member," and that apparently was enough."
"News outlets often choose to run headlines that exhibit an air of disbelief at an alleged white killer's supposed actions. Sometimes, they appear to go out of their way to boost the suspect's character, carrying quotes from relatives or acquaintances that often paint even alleged murderers in a positive light.
Here are a few examples:
WHITE SUSPECT
That's how the Lubbock Avalanche-Journal chose to present the story of Amy Bishop, a former college professor who eventually pleaded guilty to killing three colleagues and wounding three others at a faculty meeting in 2010.
BLACK VICTIM
And that's the headline AL.com ran about the shooting death of a 25-year-old black man in Alabama earlier this year.
WHITE SUSPECT
This is how the Staten Island Advance covered the case of Eric Bellucci, a mentally ill New York man who allegedly killed his parents.
BLACK VICTIM
Meanwhile, NBC News ran this headline during ongoing coverage of the Trayvon Martin killing.
WHITE SUSPECT
This Fox News headline quoted friends shocked that 15-year-old Jared Michael Padgett had entered his high school heavily armed and killed a classmate, injured a teacher and took his own life.
BLACK VICTIM
But in Florida, this headline in the Ledger focused on a police account that made the death of a black 19-year-old seem somehow expected, or at least unsurprising.
WHITE SUSPECT
In the wake of the mass shooting in Santa Barbara, California, earlier this year, the Whittier Daily News offered a headline showing one man's disbelief that Elliot Rodger could have committed such a crime.
BLACK VICTIM
Earlier this month, the New York Daily News ran this headline, carrying comments by the Ohio attorney general that appeared to defend police after killing a black man at a Walmart.
WHITE SUSPECT
This was the headline given to an Associated Press story at Mlive.com about an Ohio teen who later pleaded guilty to a school shooting in which three students were killed and two were wounded.
BLACK VICTIM
But when an unarmed father of two was killed by a police officer while entering a vehicle that contained his own children, the Los Angeles Times served up this claim from officials.
WHITE SUSPECT
In 2008, 18-year-old Ryan Schallenberger was accused of plotting to bomb his South Carolina high school. Ohio's Chronicle Telegram wanted readers to know that he was a straight-A student, running an AP story with this headline.
BLACK VICTIM
And according to the Omaha World-Herald, this is what you needed to know about Julius B. Vaughn, a 19-year-old gunned down in Omaha last year:
WHITE SUSPECT
Kerri Ann Heffernan was charged in 2012 in a string of bank robberies and stores. This headline at Wicked Local wonders how she'd come so far from her days as a smart high school student.
BLACK VICTIM
Of 22-year-old black man Deon Sanders' killing in Ohio earlier this year, WKBN's headline said "gang member," and that apparently was enough."
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RUDE BOY
Space is the Place
sorry a little off topic,
My first vehicle had a gun rack (late '70s) and always carried a 12 gauge driving around Tampa until the mid '80s. Then one night I got pulled over,put down on my stomach and cuffed at gun point then detained a couple days and fined. The Laws had changed a bit and i didn't know. Never got my shotgun back either. Don't know about Texas law but here in Florida your not going to walk around with a Long Gun or shotgun or drive around with one visible in a gun rack with out getting your self arrested or shot.
arf777
No longer dogless
Dude, it isn't like cops in Baltimore weren't shooting black people all the time back then. They were. I knew black people who were. So yes, I am saying race was one of the main determining factors, definitely. Shit man, I walked around with a rusty hatchet on my belt, sometimes threatening people, always carrying drugs. Never was the victim of police violence. While a black friend who was unarmed, a straight A student and an all-star football player got the crap kicked out of him, on the way home from his moms funeral. So yes, race was definitely a factor.
And DO NOT get me started on the courts. I am a federal law expert at one of the most powerful law firms in the country and part of my job is reading every demented opinion a Federal court puts out. Under the post-Roberts court standards, it is seriously hard to get a court to rule ANYTHING isn't cool for a cop or other law enforcement to do. They can now: lie while mirandizing you; use gestapo tactics like denying you a bathroom for 24 hours unless you confess; pull you over and search you even when you are not driving erratically or acting unusual at all; kick in your door if they smell pot and 'hear a toilet flush' while passing your apartment during a chase, even though the person being chased was never suspected of HAVING ANY POT; can lie to your roommate to get them to allow a warrantless search even after you have told them to come back with a warrant; and possibly my favorite, simply throw out any case you bring against law enforcement for violating your rights if the judge feels your accusation is 'implausible in light of his personal experience' (see Ashcroft v Iqbal for that one). So just because a court says it was kosher DOES NOT mean it was; it just means you got a shitty judge (actual jury trials are vanishingly rare in the US - in 11+ years running a database that tracks every case for a huge law firm, I have seen less than .5% go to trial, and of those less than half actually complete the trial.
Sounds like for once Florida is ahead of the rest of the states. People used to wander all over MD with guns and I know of not one white person who got messed with over it, but many, many non-white people. Ditto when I lived in North Carolina, where a cop once actually TOLD ME to walk around my neighborhood carrying a shotgun to discourage getting robbed again (I had just been robbed). I asked if another cop would mess with me, and his reply? You're nwhite so they'll leave you alone. Which really fucked with me, as my (now ex) wife was not white.
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Caligula
Maximus
If you would like I can Google up some hand picked examples where white people have gotten beat down and/or killed by the police in an in just fashion. That doesn't mean it's a large enough sample to make blanket statements like "this only happened because they were white".
In either case, I agree race plays a factor, however you initially stated that it was the only factor which is wrong any way you look at it.
In either case, I agree race plays a factor, however you initially stated that it was the only factor which is wrong any way you look at it.
Caligula
Maximus
You focused on that and not the "with a gun strapped to my back" part? I obviously wasn't talking about the MB case. Reread the context of what was being said there and it might make more sense.
arf777
No longer dogless
I never said white people didn't ever get fucked with by cops. I know too many people who have been. But the proportional differences between whites and non-whites getting fucked with, beaten or killed are huge. That is an empirical fact. And it is not proportionate to the differences in actual criminal behavior. When they are, then you can say race is not a major or the major factor.
Dude, reread my posts. Nowhere did I say race was the ONLY factor. A major factor, yes, maybe even the determining factor, but never said it was the only factor.
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Madcap79
Jack of all trades, master of none.
My bad.
Caligula
Maximus
StickyShisha2
Well-Known Member
did you see this coverage of the police attacking the media?
Caligula
Maximus
As I've reiterated a few times already, phrasing and language matter greatly in cases like this. You need to say what you mean. If you mean to say race is one of many different factors, say that.
This is written text. There is no subtle body language or facial expressions to read into.
Basically, dont make all encompassing blanket statements and assume people will be able to "know what you meant to say".
And regarding "stop and frisk"...
http://nypost.com/2012/07/24/how-stop-and-frisk-saved-new-york/
arf777
No longer dogless
Nowhere there does it say the people who suffered only did so because of their race. What it says is neither I or a friend, when both openly armed and breaking the law, were not harassed, in large part due to our apparent race (my friend with the AK is actually part native american but passes for white, and I am part gypsy and part mongolian but have pasty skin). And in another post I mentioned a cop told me I not just could but should wander around showing the neighborhood I had a shotgun, and that I would not be messed with because I was white. That was what the COP said.
Nor did I even slightly imply that all cops are racist. Would not surprise me if many, if not most in some departments, including cops who are not white, hold racist stereotypes, but it is not even implied by what I said. You could read the implication that I think all cops in Baltimore when I was younger were racist, but even that is about one department, in one city, on one time period. Maybe you need to learn to parse meaning better. If I thought all cops were racist, or that race was the only factor (rather than a determining factor), I would have said so.
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2clicker
Observer
i can understand your arguments for the shooter in the MB case. im sure everyone here wants the truth, but backing the police regarding how they are handling the protestors is just nuts. its out of control and will contribute to more aggression from the public. they didnt deploy the trucks when things "deteriorated". someone threw a rock and or a brick. a tiny percent of people acting out in a crowd isnt "deterioration" of the protest. its simply an excuse to use excessive force.
i mean they are stripping your fellow american citizens of their rights. and its wrong.
these guys in TX with long guns are just douche bags w/ no brains. there isnt going to be a terrorist attack inside of a qdoba for fucks sake.
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Madcap79
Jack of all trades, master of none.
olivianewtonjohn
Well-Known Member
Dont forget:
"According to the commission, 79 percent of 5,669 sentenced crack offenders in 2009 were black, versus 10 percent who were white and 10 percent who were Hispanic."
While blacks and whites use crack at the same rates
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2010/08/03/data-show-racial-disparity-in-crack-sentencing
Book I want to read:
http://www.amazon.com/The-New-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595586431/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1408474465&sr=8-1&keywords=new jim crow
No institutionalized racism here, everything is ok people lol. Cops are good, bad guys are bad; see simple
Caligula
Maximus
That's all well and good, but it says nothing about actual crime reduction... which there was a lot of. I never said it was perfect or even ethical, I'm merely stating the fact that violent crimes in NYC dropped after the S & F policy was initiated.
@olivianewtonjohn very good points and I don't think anyone would argue that disparity. I invite you to look into murder rates and gun crimes before and after the S & F policy went into effect though.
2clicker
Observer
i realize it was a quote, but thought you we
trying to prove a point by posting it...?