the Michael Brown thread

SSVUN~YAH

You Must Unlearn, What You Have Learned...
I've had CS gas up in my face before. I can promise you I'd rather do that again than take a rubber bullet to the back or chest.



You mean if I was able to separate the irrationally of emotion from the logic of reality (which in and of itself isn't realistic)? I'd probably be able to accept what happened without burning the city down or looting stores.

I'd also like to question any adult who feels it a good idea to send Timmy the neighbor boy to negotiate with what everyone thinks is an armed individual who fails to listen to police commands.
Well I certainly hope you wouldn't riot or loot. You would feel no ill will, honestly? Don't send Timmy in send Lassie bc she is always there to save Timmy. Alas, the dog would probably be killed as a threat and or target practice.
 
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SSVUN~YAH,
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Gonzo

Slightly Stoopid
How about no firearm at all? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_use_of_firearms_in_the_United_Kingdom Obviously in gun crazy america that's not realistic, but still an interesting contrast to think about.

I am originally from the Bahamas(As you may know a former British colony). They had a similar policy for a long time and it worked for them. That was until their officer were violently being confronted every day with illegal firearms flowing in from the US. At that point the Bahamian Government had no choice but to arm all officers.

Similarly in the US the amount of illegal firearms on the streets is so high that to not arm officers would be irresponsible and result in many more innocent deaths (Think Columbine, the Aurora Mall shooting, Newtown shooting...).

The simple fact is that police officers in the United States have a very dangerous job, and need firearms that match the firearms they will encounter on the job.
 

Been Vapin

Fringe Class
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This is some of the stuff the police have been using. If your hit with one of these 20 percent chance youll have permenant physical deformity or permanent injury.
 
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Caligula

Maximus
Yup. That would get me to move away too. Still rather CS gas for sure tho.

Well I certainly hope you wouldn't riot or loot. You would feel no ill will, honestly?

We're all Human. Of course any one of us would be upset and angry in this situation (among a myriad of other emotions, I'm sure).

None of this means that the LEO is wrong in their handling of the situation given the circumstances, however.
 
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SSVUN~YAH

You Must Unlearn, What You Have Learned...

Caligula

Maximus
So if your kid for whatever reason disobeyed you and went "pick a place" found a toy gun walked home got shot and killed by cops bc he again "disobeyed" police, your on board bc an officer of the peace' life "could" have been in danger.

You mean if I was able to separate the irrationally of emotion from the logic of reality (which in and of itself isn't realistic)? I'd probably be able to accept what happened without burning the city down or looting stores.

You would feel no ill will, honestly?

We're all Human. Of course any one of us would be upset and angry in this situation (among a myriad of other emotions, I'm sure).

None of this means that the LEO is wrong in their handling of the situation given the circumstances, however.

They were wrong, though...

Wait, what? ...you just made up a hypothetical, asked me how I would respond, then told me that the police were wrong in order to refute my response.

Color me confused.
 
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SSVUN~YAH

You Must Unlearn, What You Have Learned...
So... you make up a hypothetical, ask me how I would respond, then tell me that the police in your hypothetical situation were wrong in order to refute my response?
Sorry was thinking about the real situation, you know where the police shot to kill a kid with the toy gun. I forgot how much you like those hypotheticals, again another reason I dislike them. They cause confusion, a mere magicians trick or a tool for captains of their debate team. Check this out, was the point of my last post:http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/TheAuthoritarians.pdf
 

Caligula

Maximus
Sorry was thinking about the real situation, you know where the police shot to kill a kid with the toy gun. I forgot how much you like those hypotheticals, again another reason I dislike them. They cause confusion, a mere magicians trick or a tool for captains of their debate team. Check this out, was the point of my last post:http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/TheAuthoritarians.pdf

You were the one who proposed the hypothetical, remember? Neither here nor there I suppose. I can tell you, though, that simply saying "the cops are wrong" then linking me to a 260+ page pdf without further elaboration isnt doing a very good job of solidifying your point IMO.

Cliffs notes: TLDR and most likely superfluous... however Ill never know for sure because TLDR.
 
Caligula,

Gonzo

Slightly Stoopid
Sorry was thinking about the real situation, you know where the police shot to kill a kid with the toy gun. I forgot how much you like those hypotheticals, again another reason I dislike them. They cause confusion, a mere magicians trick or a tool for captains of their debate team. Check this out, was the point of my last post:http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/TheAuthoritarians.pdf


What does the link or RWA have to do with this discussion? The link seems to provide this professor's long term opinion on politics and authority. It is self published, and self funded. It is in no way is fact however.
 

SSVUN~YAH

You Must Unlearn, What You Have Learned...
You were the one who proposed the hypothetical, remember? Neither here nor there I suppose. I can tell you, though, that simply saying "the cops are wrong" then linking me to a 260+ page pdf without further elaboration isnt doing a very good job of solidifying your point IMO.

Cliffs notes: TLDR and most likely superfluous... however Ill never know for sure because TLDR.
Sir, I am just saying in this case, the WalMart, MB and the one I posted the cops were wrong, protocol failed. In every case an unarmed and/or innocent person was killed and/or murdered by the enforcement officer. I'm not saying "Cops are bad, mmmkay?", but I am saying "wow I have instant compassion for those victims and family/friends." I'm not saying "they probably deserved it, we need to be controlled, we are a dangerous society to ourselves but mostly to enforcement." Its all covered in the PDF that you tossed aside, funny thing is your tossing it aside so abruptly is covered in the PDF as well.
 
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SSVUN~YAH

You Must Unlearn, What You Have Learned...
What does the link or RWA have to do with this discussion? The link seems to provide this professor's long term opinion on politics and authority. It is self published, and self funded. It in no way is fact however.
Read it and you can probably answer your very own ?'s...
 
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Been Vapin

Fringe Class
@Been Vapin

Can you elaborate on what all the links mean?

*Edit*

Are they links to live feeds of protests?

Live video streams. Live police radio streams. Live Twitter accounts of important/relevant people. News coverage.

A map showing where all incidents in the area have taken place since Mr. Browns killing.

The reddit live text one is very very good.
 

invertedisdead

PHASE3
Manufacturer
There is more then enough evidence going around lately to show that the police department can NOT effectively operate or control firearms and should be reduced to less-than-lethal armaments. If the threat is truly serious, they are going to send in the SWAT team anyways, which is good because these people are at least trained in operating a weapon. Until law enforcement can prove otherwise that they are responsible enough to handle guns they should be equipped with tasers (already have) mace (already have) batons (already have)

Do you see the pattern? They HAVE tons of effective takedown tools, yet resort to stagecoach bandit Shoot First-Ask Questions Later tactics.

If the suspect is unarmed nobody should be drawing guns. Mace is INCREDIBLY effective. All this trigger happy cops n' robbers play is nonsense, embarrassing, and unconstitutional.
 

Gonzo

Slightly Stoopid
@invertedisdead

There are definitely times when Police Departments around the country use excessive force, and there are wrongful death shootings. However, the number of these tragic incidents are far less than the number of dangerous situations that Police Departments around the country diffuse every day. Many of these situations involving armed dangerous criminals. The numbers in fact are not even close.

Those officers involved in wrongful death shootings should be held accountable (I personally still believe the officer in this case will face charges) and departments around the country need better training on how to deal with the public. There are however many successful interactions with police officers every day and once again, the positive events greatly outnumber the negative ones. The difference is the media doesn't cover all the good police actually do.

Since this incident occurred, many officers have put their lives on the line around this country. They face dangerous criminals, sometimes outnumbered if they arrive on a scene while patrolling alone. They need to be properly armed to not only protect their own life but sometimes defend others.

If anyone thinks that firearms are not used against police on a daily basis around this country, you are clearly mistaken.

@SSVUN~YAH

I plan to read the whole thing but my guess would be that you agree with the author. I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but it is just an opinion. As to this thread I don't see how RWA applies to this specific topic but I would like you to explain to me how it does.

I have not read the authors paper but I am familiar with the Right Wing Authoritarianism opinion. I do not believe that everyone who believes in an ordered and structured society are automatically conformist. Order and structure in society is what bought us out of the dark ages.
 
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SSVUN~YAH

You Must Unlearn, What You Have Learned...
I think we can all appreciate a truthful, honest law man. I'm not sure I follow @RUDE BOY who said we shouldn't have any rules/laws or enforcement? We can't let the Pagans win, people walking down the middle of the road and all that nonsense...


I just was shocked by the lack of compassion and instant support for authority, didn't see it coming from this group is all, maybe if it was cannabis taking the bullet in the kill zone, idk...
 

SSVUN~YAH

You Must Unlearn, What You Have Learned...
You beat me to it Rude Boy, we would revert bak to the dark ages.
Yes! This is all covered, guys you should read it! I wish we were all in the class and able to participate in the game created by Bob Altemeyer...
 
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invertedisdead

PHASE3
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@invertedisdead
If anyone thinks that firearms are not used against police on a daily basis around this country, you are clearly mistaken.
.

But heres the problem, the firearm is an impulse. Nobody is reaching for the stun gun, or the mace, or the baton, or heaven forbid a good old fashioned tackle. Its always shoot to kill. They are acting on force and not what is appropriate to disarm the situation. Watch an episode of cops, 6 officers with pistols aimed at one unarmed guy with a roach in his ashtray.

If a cop has a gun aimed at you, I would scream HELP, do not say "Don't Shoot", because he'll probably only hear "SHOOT" and take that as an order to leave you for the street sweepers.

7 billion people cannot exist in a utopia where we all get along, exchange goods and services, and live in harmony. This is not possible.

There are bad people, it's just that simple. We need police officers.

Yes we need police officers. We need honest, communitarian, responsible, trustworthy, law-abiding, police officers. Not Wild Bill shoot-em-up salaried vigilantes. Watch the Cop Block page on Facebook, there's posts made EVERY day. These guys literally do not know the very rights they are under oath to protect and serve.
 
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Gonzo

Slightly Stoopid
Yes we need police officers. We need honest, communitarian, responsible, trustworthy, law-abiding, police officers. Not Wild Bill shoot-em-up salaried vigilantes. Watch the Cop Block page on Facebook, there's posts made EVERY day. These guys literally do not know the very rights they are under oath to protect and serve.

Then we agree there needs to be better training nationwide, thats a start. But I disagree about the wild bill analogy. That sounds more like rhetoric to me. We hear about these cases far less than we ought to, but they still in no way make up the majority of police incidents.

"These guys" as you refer to them also put their lives on the line so that people like me don't have to. I personally am very thankful for police officers. If someone tries to break into my house tonight while my wife and I are sleeping, I will feel good knowing I can call 911. How about you?

No one ever seems to like the police until they need to call them.
 

RUDE BOY

Space is the Place
I think we can all appreciate a truthful, honest law man. I'm not sure I follow @RUDE BOY who said we shouldn't have any rules/laws or enforcement? We can't let the Pagans win, people walking down the middle of the road and all that nonsense...


I just was shocked by the lack of compassion and instant support for authority, didn't see it coming from this group is all, maybe if it was cannabis taking the bullet in the kill zone, idk...

Maybe i just don't see/understand the correlation your seeing in the paper and this situation?
I read bits of the paper but kinda failed to see when it would become relevant as we do live under govt enforced laws, we all have to surrender some personal liberties to those in power inorder to live as freely as we do.


I do think anyone, police or otherwise killing anyone who's unarmed and have their hands raised in surrender commits Murder.

I do also think walking in a street with traffic so a cop has to tell you to get out of the way and then arguing with them ain't normal either.


My thought is:
None of this would of happened if Micheal Brown was walking on the sidewalk instead wandering down the middle of a city street.
 

invertedisdead

PHASE3
Manufacturer
Then we agree there needs to be better training nationwide, thats a start. But I disagree about the wild bill analogy. That sounds more like rhetoric to me. We hear about these cases far less than we ought to, but they still in no way make up the majority of police incidents.

"These guys" as you refer to them also put their lives on the line so that people like me don't have to. I personally am very thankful for police officers. If someone tries to break into my house tonight while my wife and I are sleeping, I will feel good knowing I can call 911. How about you?

No one ever seems to like the police until they need to call them.

Mainstream media rarely covers a police scandal. There is documented media being put out daily through other channels of information.

Didn't you hear the one last month of the guy who called 911 and the cops shot HIM? Whoops, wrong guy! And if you have a dog, even if the dog weighs 20 pounds that threat will have to be eliminated.
 
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