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Caligula

Maximus
Lets look at some things from a perspective that isn't mired in BS and opinion.

@Caligula Do you really believe this just began due to one fuckin' rocket attack in 2014 or the fact that the state of Israel seems to enjoy treating a group of people the same way the Nazis treated them in the 1930s and 1940s.

It depends, and no. In that order.

This most recent cease fire was broken when Hamas launched rockets, so if you want to get technical then, yes. That was the major escalation point in the most recent flair up of violence. Since that was the topic in question, I feel it is a legitimate answer.

That said, have you ever heard of "Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies", AKA the "Hitler card"? Quite simply, it states that as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

Here's a perfect description of this analogy fallacy:

"The Hitler Card is often combined with other fallacies, for instance, a weak analogy between an opponent and Hitler, or between the opposition political group and the Nazis. A related form of fallacious analogy is that which compares an opposition's actions with the Holocaust. This is a form of the ad Nazium (<-- lol) fallacy because it casts the opposition in the role of Nazi. Not only do such arguments assign guilt by association, but the analogy used to link the opposition's actions with the Holocaust may be superficial or question-begging.

Just saying.

The Israeli Jewish population are invaders who don't belong there and are keeping the indigenous peoples in a closed ghetto, treated like some kind of waste product.

If i were a Palestinian I know i would want to Kill All those who took my land and imprisoned me.

Wouldn't you? Come on now get real.

It's interesting that you mention this.

"Palestine" (a place which has had pretty nebulous boarders for most of its history) is a region which has been occupied by quite a few different peoples. Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Persians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Ottomans, the British, Muslims, Crusaders, and yes even ancient Israelites (Google "Judeah" sometime) have all laid claim to that land over the past couple millennia.

Now, I'm more than certain that every single one of those peoples had their own reasons as to why that land is "theirs" (because "god" said so, right?). Furthermore, basically every single civilization which has laid claim to that land has taken it by force. So who is to say whom is right? Is it simple a matter of "I was there first"? Because guess what? Neither the Palestinians nor the current state of Israel can claim that.

In any regard, I'm rather glad that the Native Amercians who used to own occupy the land I'm living on now, aren't sending over small pox infested blankets to my house in some bitter cycle of revenge and hate.

Perhaps we should ask all native peoples everywhere what they think about your sentiment regarding retaliation and murder? Which native peoples should we start with? The Hmong in Cambodia and Vietnam? Native Hawaiians in Hawaii? How about the aborigines in Australia? The Inuit and Mettis tribes who used to live in whats now Canada? The Guianas and Amazonians in South America? I suppose you could also take your pick of the literal dozens of indigenous Siberian tribes which were systematically crushed, dispersed and killed by the Russians as well.

Eye for an eye. It's historically always worked out for the better. Right?


I would like to see an outcome that somehow benefits all involved and ends the system of segregation and inequity that has existed since 1948 when the rest of the worlds Governments Overlooked the God given rights of the Palestinian Population and gave their land to an otherwise unwanted and displaced peoples (the Jews).

"God given rights..."

This has been the rally call for almost every major conflict in that region. It is also the worst excuse for violence since the history of mankind began.

"God said I should build a temple here."
"God said I should destroy your temple and build a mosque."
"God said this land is my land, not your land!"
"God said WE are the chosen people!"
"Pass the bullets and bombs, god said its cool to kill those people!"
"God said you're going to hell for not believing what I believe!"
"God hates fags!"

Sigh.

Sorry my friend, but you don't get land rights because a burning bush told your great, great, great grandfather it was his to live on... Nor does it give you carte blanche to kill anyone who doesn't value your old wives tale.


You do have to remember that from around 500BC until 1948AD there was no "Israel" to blow off the map. The Nation now Called "Israel" IS Actually A Very old country NAMED PALESTINE...

"Palestine" isn't a country, and Im not talking about the UN not recognizing it as such. It's been considered a "region" of land with widely varying boarders throughout basically all of recorded Human history. What you're talking about here is a rather ill-defined plot of land which has been "home" to countless peoples and civilizations.


But when I see people blaming Hamas for firing rockets, and using that as justification for targeting civilians, I can't help but post. Where do you think Hamas gets people to fill its ranks? People who have lost children or wives or parents. People who have had pre teen brothers disappear into Israeli prisons only to come back changed forever.

I fail to see the connection between these two statements. Unless you are trying to say that Hamas is willingly taking civilian casualties in order to mobilize its populous into joining, your point was lost on me.
Also, while its obviously not as cut and dry as simply saying "all Palestinian civilian casualties are a direct result of Hamas using human shields", you cant state that it isn't a major contributing factor.

Of course, at the same time, you cant fault Hamas for using such a tactic. Its a rather sound plan and has been shown to be effective in terms of gaining political advantages and international sympathy.

Look up Doron Zahavi, and what he did to prisoners during interrogations. He's considered a hero in Israel. To me that's worse than treating suicide bombers as martyrs or heroes.

Oh you mean the Israeli interrogator that was accused of sticking things up a a captive operative's butt? I'm interested to know whats going on in your head when you can say that's worse than this:

MIDEAST650.jpg

:shrug:

Palestine was stolen by the British & given to the Jews as a present... In case my answer is not clear...the Jews attacked first.


How does that even make sense?


More likely because they are murdering cunts.

Bro, I think you need to step back and look at things from a different perspective. The bias here is clouding your vision a little, IMO. I find it impossible to fathom that any rational person can honestly believe Israel is going after Palestinians due to some homicidal predisposition.


Big deal being made of these Hamas rockets ..remind me again how many Israelis have been killed by these rockets since the 3 dead kids showed up?

Is that really the point? I honestly don't think death toll is the issue here, for either side.




Ah, but allow me to digress...

I now have a quick question for anyone who knows (I honestly don't)... how many cease fires have been brokered and then broken between Israel and the Palestinians? Out of those times, who was the first side to break said cease fire and actually lob weaponry at the other? How many peace deals have been attempted and which side declined each time? Which side offers concessions to the other more often in attempt to quash the issue?

I'd be interested to see that breakdown.
 
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grokit

well-worn member
It's kind of funny that they call that place the cradle of civilization, when people behave so savagely over there and everywhere else that's now called western civilization for that matter.
In fact it makes me question what the meaning of the term "civilization" actually is because FUCK!
It's like a virus you know what I mean?
 

Caligula

Maximus
It's kind of funny that they call that place the cradle of civilization, when people behave so savagely over there and everywhere else that's now called western civilization for that matter.
In fact it makes me question what the meaning of the term "civilization" actually is because FUCK!
It's like a virus you know what I mean?

Sorry to say, its not isolated to western civilizations. Welcome to Humanity.
 
Caligula,
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grokit

well-worn member
Yeah, even the savages are fucking savages but the civilized take it to a whole new level.
 
grokit,

Farid

Well-Known Member
Oh you mean the Israeli interrogator that was accused of sticking things up a a captive operative's butt? I'm interested to know whats going on in your head when you can say that's worse than this: (destroyed bus)

Another personal attack. What's going inside my head? You know I'm not alone in thinking that rape is worse than murder...

EDIT: I'm done posting in this thread. It's not worth my mental health when people like Caligula are interested in "whats going inside my head."
 
Farid,

Caligula

Maximus
Another personal attack. What's going inside my head? You know I'm not alone in thinking that rape is worse than murder...

EDIT: I'm done posting in this thread. It's not worth my mental health when people like Caligula are interested in "whats going inside my head."

Im sorry you feel like that was a personal attack. Upon further reflection, I was too vague with my previous response. Let me rephrase, with some elaboration.

The situation regarding Doron Zahavi, AKA "Captain George" is regrettable for sure, but is also mired in quite a bit of controversy and political posturing. What does that case really come down to? A former prisoner (who was only released due to a prisoner exchange) accused his former captors of rape. Denials were made of course... and a case can be had for either side to lie at this point. It really came down to a he said/she said battle, and someone had to take the hit.

Regardless, in the end Zahavi was drug through court proceedings and summarily fired from his IDF position. Thats hardly being treated as a "hero" as you had described. If he did do it, hes a sick fuck to be sure, but that's not really my point...

My point is this. You were comparing the confirmed mass murder (hence the bombers being martyrs) of civilians to the alleged torture of a single individual. In fact, you were saying that the latter is worse than the former. Which begs the question... what is do you base this opinion on? Or to use a turn of phrase, "whats going on in your head"?

BTW, I'm curious... you mention this is "another personal attack". Id really hate to come off as being like that, so could you please let me know where I had transgressed previously? Perhaps I can explain myself further, as I did above in order to further deescalate the situation.
 
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RUDE BOY

Space is the Place
Lets look at some things from a perspective that isn't mired in BS and opinion.



It depends, and no. In that order.

This most recent cease fire was broken when Hamas launched rockets, so if you want to get technical then, yes. That was the major escalation point in the most recent flair up of violence. Since that was the topic in question, I feel it is a legitimate answer.

That said, have you ever heard of "Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies", AKA the "Hitler card"? Quite simply, it states that as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

Here's a perfect description of this analogy fallacy:

"The Hitler Card is often combined with other fallacies, for instance, a weak analogy between an opponent and Hitler, or between the opposition political group and the Nazis. A related form of fallacious analogy is that which compares an opposition's actions with the Holocaust. This is a form of the ad Nazium (<-- lol) fallacy because it casts the opposition in the role of Nazi. Not only do such arguments assign guilt by association, but the analogy used to link the opposition's actions with the Holocaust may be superficial or question-begging.

Just saying.



It's interesting that you mention this.

"Palestine" (a place which has had pretty nebulous boarders for most of its history) is a region which has been occupied by quite a few different peoples. Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Persians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Ottomans, the British, Muslims, Crusaders, and yes even ancient Israelites (Google "Judeah" sometime) have all laid claim to that land over the past couple millennia.

Now, I'm more than certain that every single one of those peoples had their own reasons as to why that land is "theirs" (because "god" said so, right?). Furthermore, basically every single civilization which has laid claim to that land has taken it by force. So who is to say whom is right? Is it simple a matter of "I was there first"? Because guess what? Neither the Palestinians nor the current state of Israel can claim that.

In any regard, I'm rather glad that the Native Amercians who used to own occupy the land I'm living on now, aren't sending over small pox infested blankets to my house in some bitter cycle of revenge and hate.

Perhaps we should ask all native peoples everywhere what they think about your sentiment regarding retaliation and murder? Which native peoples should we start with? The Hmong in Cambodia and Vietnam? Native Hawaiians in Hawaii? How about the aborigines in Australia? The Inuit and Mettis tribes who used to live in whats now Canada? The Guianas and Amazonians in South America? I suppose you could also take your pick of the literal dozens of indigenous Siberian tribes which were systematically crushed, dispersed and killed by the Russians as well.

Eye for an eye. It's historically always worked out for the better. Right?




"God given rights..."

This has been the rally call for almost every major conflict in that region. It is also the worst excuse for violence since the history of mankind began.

"God said I should build a temple here."
"God said I should destroy your temple and build a mosque."
"God said this land is my land, not your land!"
"God said WE are the chosen people!"
"Pass the bullets and bombs, god said its cool to kill those people!"
"God said you're going to hell for not believing what I believe!"
"God hates fags!"

Sigh.

Sorry my friend, but you don't get land rights because a burning bush told your great, great, great grandfather it was his to live on... Nor does it give you carte blanche to kill anyone who doesn't value your old wives tale.




"Palestine" isn't a country, and Im not talking about the UN not recognizing it as such. It's been considered a "region" of land with widely varying boarders throughout basically all of recorded Human history. What you're talking about here is a rather ill-defined plot of land which has been "home" to countless peoples and civilizations.


My comparison to the nazis was the fact that gaza and the other places Palestinian peoples are forced to live in are reminiscent of the GHETTOS the Jews and others who were deemed sub-par were forced to live in poverty and fear.

The God given RIGHTS i Spoke of were those of FOOD, WATER and OWNERSHIP of PROPERTY !!!

WTF burning bush talk ! (are you really trying to make me think your an Idiot)


AND YES i know the History of Palestine the piece of Land or country or area or province or what ever it's called in whatever book(web site?) your reading or have read from that would be why i said

"The history of the country of palestine is ROCKY, BLOODY AND LONG"

i have read thousands upon thousands of pages in dozens and dozens of books ranging mainly from the 18th century to the present on the topics of biblical and Islamic history !

edit;
although you do go into that great little side rant about indigenous peoples your not really taking into account that some people who lost their lands in 1948 are still alive with their children, grand children and great grandchildren so it's not forgotten and yes people hate people who take away their home and land and want them dead and gone or at least what was theirs back.
It was not a barren country in 1948 and those people that lived and owned property in the cities had often been there for many generations
 
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Farid

Well-Known Member
I didn't want to post again, but you realize if you were talking to a rape victim, a statement like that could cause serious triggers. A lot of people who have raped have killed themselves, or struggle with suicide.

I've not been raped, but you don't know me. That's why I take offense, and that's why I will not respond to your senseless commentary.

Out.
 
Farid,

Caligula

Maximus
My comparison to the nazis was the fact that gaza and the other places Palestinian peoples are forced to live in are reminiscent of the GHETTOS the Jews and others who were deemed sub-par were forced to live in poverty and fear.

See, the problem here is that when you make a comparison as you did without elaboration as to what you mean people may assume you are comparing the current situation in Israel to "How the Nazis treated the Jews in the 1930s and 1940s".

BTW, "ownership" of anything is a Human invention. Even if there is a god, it isn't a "right" bestowed upon us by him/her/it.

I didn't want to post again, but you realize if you were talking to a rape victim, a statement like that could cause serious triggers. A lot of people who have raped have killed themselves, or struggle with suicide.

I've not been raped, but you don't know me. That's why I take offense, and that's why I will not respond to your senseless commentary.

Out.


I like hypotheticals. Let me try one.

Let's say I am a rape victim myself. Do you think that I may have a place to speak from in this situation? Do you think that you are making an assumption that Im NOT? Is this the exact same thing you are accusing me of?

In other words... It's a sword that cuts both ways. Is it not?

I think the problem here, is that if people are afraid to speak the truth at the mere fear of offending others, we have lost as a free society.

Regardless, I am sad that even with elaboration you find no value in what I have to say. So be it, and I apologize for any hurt feelings.
 
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Farid

Well-Known Member
The only ones who have to constantly be afraid of offending anyone in this situation are pro Palestinians who if poorly educated or poorly articulated when condemning Israel, can be lumped into a group of people society ignores called anti-semites. Meanwhile it's totally socially acceptable to be Islamophobic, because it's just a religion, not a religion and a ethnicity.
 

Caligula

Maximus
I most certainly do not believe its right to hate someone based on their religion OR ethnic background. See, there can be common ground.

Now, if it were only that easy in the middle east!
 

Farid

Well-Known Member
See I have no common ground with you and I don't accept your apology because you insist on including that winkey face. As if you imply that is something you or I do not actually believe in. I take human rights seriously, not everything is a joke. Thanks for the provocation, but I'll stick with the cannabis related sections of these boards from now on.

EDIT: Nice job editing out the winkey face. I know a provocation when I see one.
 
Farid,
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olivianewtonjohn

Well-Known Member
My comparison to the nazis was the fact that gaza and the other places Palestinian peoples are forced to live in are reminiscent of the GHETTOS the Jews and others who were deemed sub-par were forced to live in poverty and fear.

The God given RIGHTS i Spoke of were those of FOOD, WATER and OWNERSHIP of PROPERTY !!!

WTF burning bush talk ! (are you really trying to make me think your an Idiot)


AND YES i know the History of Palestine the piece of Land or country or area or province or what ever it's called in whatever book(web site?) your reading or have read from that would be why i said

"The history of the country of palestine is ROCKY, BLOODY AND LONG"

i have read thousands upon thousands of pages in dozens and dozens of books ranging mainly from the 18th century to the present on the topics of biblical and Islamic history !

edit;
although you do go into that great little side rant about indigenous peoples your not really taking into account that some people who lost their lands in 1948 are still alive with their children, grand children and great grandchildren so it's not forgotten and yes people hate people who take away their home and land and want them dead and gone or at least what was theirs back.
It was not a barren country in 1948 and those people that lived and owned property in the cities had often been there for many generations

Your edit was exactly what I was thinking. What a flawed analogy and argument. And the nazi card talk just made him look even more ridiculous.

I truly feel for the Palestinians plight, they are getting fucked over. I know there are peaceful protests constantly happening but arent well covered (except for Democracy Now, RT TV, etc). I wish they would become unified and all peacefully protest. They need to do what India did. Indians couldnt fight off the Brits with force (machine guns mowing them down). Likewise Palestinians cant fight off the Israeli's (I know I know they are so well "armed" by Syria and Iran totally in proportion to the $3B aid and weapons that Israeli gets from the US). Fighting them is just an excuse for more "defensive" operations and land grab

Brings me to another point when you have people talking about how Hamas has tunnels, uses human shields and whatever else they supposedly do. Imploring non-tradition fighting is exactly what you would expect. Why do people expect a shitty small army on the Palestinian side to go toe to toe with Israeli's army? While we are on the topic. I often hear sheep yelping about Hamas's terrorist tactics but not the other side. Go type in white phosphorus gas Israeli in google, pretty gruesome stuff and just another example of Israeli's breech of international law (and American sponsored terrorism).

Here is a preview of what white phosphorus does:
white%20phos.jpg
 
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RUDE BOY

Space is the Place
@Caligula ...the fact that the state of Israel seems to enjoy treating a group of people the same way the Nazis treated them in the 1930s and 1940s. It's unbelievable that we in the west let it continue and still take the side of the mainly western European Jews who occupy a eastern country.

The Israeli Jewish population are invaders who don't belong there and are keeping the indigenous peoples in a closed ghetto, treated like some kind of waste product.

go ahead read this quote again, you need to. Because i am comparing the two sets of circumstances the one Now in palestine and the 30s and 40s in germany ...First you demonize them then steal their land and holdings then lock 'em in a ghetto. then whats next? whats the "Final" Move?

See, the problem here is that when you make a comparison as you did without elaboration as to what you mean people may assume you are comparing the current situation in Israel to "How the Nazis treated the Jews in the 1930s and 1940s".

BTW, "ownership" of anything is a Human invention. Even if there is a god, it isn't a "right" bestowed upon us by him/her/it.
Ok maybe "God given rights" is a term you can't handle maturely so maybe BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS is more up to your standards.
 
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Crohnie

Crohn's Warrior
The European Union needs to finally grow a pair and stand up to Putin. Have the Europeans learned nothing from the lessons of WW2? Same goes for the equally useless United Nations. Kick Russia off the Security Council at least. Putin understands one thing: STRENGTH. He is laughing at the weakness of the West.
 

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
I have come to the conclusion that this group is not a safe place for me to engage in conversation. I am quite certain at this stage that I will be completely unable to maintain civil discourse and keep from slamming individuals for their stupidity and willful ignorance, so I am gone and back to all things Mary Jane. Have fun guys...
 
cybrguy,

grokit

well-worn member
Is that an ad hominum attack on Kerry's credibility? :lol:
The headline certainly was. It was pointing out that he was caught in a red-faced lie, just last august in a similar situation. His "...credibility on such matters has been in the toilet since last August when he claimed during last year’s furor and push for war against Syria’s Basher al Assad that he had seen “clear and compelling evidence” that the Syrian government had used poison gas against its own people. That “evidence” turned out (clearly with Kerry’s knowledge) to have been ginned up, falsified and staged, and in the end it was evident that Syria had not been the guilty party."

But the main gist of the article was more about providing a bit of critical thinking, and looking at all the evidence before assigning blame. Kerry seems to have no problem starting wwiii over what he admits is circumstantial evidence, almost like going to war with putin is the preconceived goal. The military-industrial complex would be nothing without the usa having its enemies, even if it has to manufacture them.

military-industrial-complex-Eisenhower.jpg
E.jpg
 
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lwien

Well-Known Member
That “evidence” turned out (clearly with Kerry’s knowledge) to have been ginned up, falsified and staged, and in the end it was evident that Syria had not been the guilty party."

Evident to who? It's not evident to me. Ginned up, falsified and staged? You mean like the moon landing?
 
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