Discontinued Thermovape Cera

OF

OF

Well-Known Member
Soflo said:
Yea, the Sony vct5 wins hands down. Not even a question. I have a stockpile of the tet black orbtronics batteries, a big pile of the grey imr, and a few AW imr, the Sony stomps the competitors ass by a long shot.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Interesting. The measurable losses in the top end batteries are trivial compared to the discharge losses. That is the best of the lot with say 4 or 5 minutes use provides less heat than the weakest in the box does freshly charged.

It's actually pretty hard to demonstrate advantages in that class at 4 Amps, at least it is for me.

Can't be magic.........

Haywood, you got your ears on?

OF
 
OF,
Soflo

Soflo

Only birdshit and fools
Just so you know, my orbtronic batteries were from the original preorder purchase of the ti Eo cera. I'm sure life cycle has a lot to do with the decrease in performance. But it was blatantly obvious that the Sony batteries heated the core up a lot faster than what I'm use to.
 
OF

OF

Well-Known Member
Soflo said:
Just so you know, my orbtronic batteries were from the original preorder purchase of the ti Eo cera. I'm sure life cycle has a lot to do with the decrease in performance. But it was blatantly obvious that the Sony batteries heated the core up a lot faster than what I'm use to.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the additional information. I'm sure more will follow. I like that kind of information sharing.

Past a certain point, 'higher power' batteries are diminishing returns for Cera cores but the trade offs to get to that outstanding current delivery might impact the 'best choice' for us? We need four Amps, any capacity past that is useless really.

One of these fine days somebody should cobble up a test fixture so we can actually measure what we want from a battery. Perhaps two protocols? One for EO use where it's a series of say 15 second (?) 4 Amp runs with pauses and a LL version where it's a couple minutes at a shot? Just thinking out loud, but any thoughts? It should be pretty easy to build up and use, once one figures out what it's supposed to be.......

Thanks again, for the information and 'food for thought'.

OF
 
Patrick Hughes

Patrick Hughes

Stoneman
Rocco said:
Yeah the T1 is a great device, has its downfalls but I can easily look past them. IMO it is or will be a collectible, if you can get one from a friend at a good price I recommend, and if you don't, ill get be glad to buy it from your friend! haha

Thermovape did the right thing in discontinuing it from a business standpoint, but id love to see them combine all 3 generations of their vapes together for a Luna Flower hybrid of sorts (Or at least Cera Mini for flowers)..... Pipe dreams i suppose....
Click to expand...

link to t1s for sale:
http://www.vaporenvyecigarettes.com/thermovape

They are ~ $85, brand new. Ultramax is the brand, but I think its thermovape's ecig line.
 
Haywood

Haywood

Onward Thru the Fog
OF said:
Thanks. Interesting. The measurable losses in the top end batteries are trivial compared to the discharge losses. That is the best of the lot with say 4 or 5 minutes use provides less heat than the weakest in the box does freshly charged.
Click to expand...

I disagree with your example. A Sony VT4 or VT5 will have a higher voltage after 4 or 5 minutes. One of the "weaker" batteries will only deliver 3.9V under a 4 amp load right off the charger, and will drop to 3.7 or 3.8 volts after a minute or two.
OF said:
It's actually pretty hard to demonstrate advantages in that class at 4 Amps, at least it is for me. Can't be magic......... Haywood, you got your ears on?
...[and]...
Past a certain point, 'higher power' batteries are diminishing returns for Cera cores but the trade offs to get to that outstanding current delivery might impact the 'best choice' for us? We need four Amps, any capacity past that is useless really.

OF
Click to expand...

The real clue is the internal resistance of the particular cell. The two Sonys (VT4 and VT5) have the lowest internal resistance. This means they (internally) drop less voltage under load, and they heat up (from internal heating) less.

In our usage (with a pure mechanical mod that has no electronics), it means that the coil will heat up faster and the battery will continue to supply enough usable voltage and current as it discharges (while using it) for a longer time. Even though we're only drawing 4 or 5 amps. It's not the fact that the Sony cells will supply 30 Amps (which we certainly don't need), it's that cells that can supply that kind of current have the lowest internal resistance.

Very low internal resistance cells also supply TET attys the voltage they need for longer, because their voltage stays pretty high until they just stop working (they tend to stay high until ~3.6V, at which point they drop off like a rock). Some of the other batteries have a much higher capacity, but 30% of it is at a lower voltage than we want. So the higher capacity batteries can be a false benefit for our usage. If one were using a regulated mod, and was happy to discharge their batteries down to 3.2 or 3.0 volts, one could get longer usage per charge than they would with the high current batteries. In that case, sometimes a battery with a greater capacity (mAh) could be a better choice. One has to look at the discharge curves keeping in mind what voltages our TET attys work well with. Oh, and keep in mind that if there's a protective circuit board on the top or bottom of the battery, you just lost another 0.1 to 0.2 volts going to the atty...

That all said, there are a number of very nice and very suitable batteries for the TET attys. While the Sonys are currently the best, they also cost a bit more.
 
OF

OF

Well-Known Member
Haywood said:
I disagree with your example. A Sony VT4 or VT5 will have a higher voltage after 4 or 5 minutes. One of the "weaker" batteries will only deliver 3.9V under a 4 amp load right off the charger, and will drop to 3.7 or 3.8 volts after a minute or two.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry for not being clearer. By 'weaker' I'm still referring to the TV recommended/sold units. Are you saying that say the CGR18650CH and NCR18650PD with a fresh charge are outperformed by the Sony when it's been used 4 or 5 minutes? Or AW IMRs?

If so, this I gotta see.

I'm not buying "Yea, the Sony vct5 wins hands down. Not even a question." when we're talking similar age/condition batteries. I think the OP has cleared that up. I think the relatively small possible improvement over the 'standard' batteries is swamped by partial discharge. Ri is already quite small compared to other losses in Cera. Taking it to zero (while not possible, of course) would not be much improvement I think. We're basically 'there'. Rushing out and buying a bunch of these wonder batteries might be a mistake?

Some 'Cera centric' testing might be useful.

OF
 
OF,
Quetzalcoatl

Quetzalcoatl

DEADY GUERRERO/DIRT COBAIN/GEORGE KUSH
@OF I know you like numbers and science so take a look at these charts and graphs and letter-number combinations that make me question my sanity. Might be a bit revealing for you WRT current battery discussion:

http://www.intaste.de/community/dtf/technical_information.pdf

I wish there was a website where you could just plug in the batteries and it would show you the graphs to compare!


Also I've found the VTC5 to be much more favorable compared to my AW IMR. Longer battery life, more consistent hits throughout, though I'm subjecting them to sub-ohm ejuice vaping (.8ohm single coil). I get a lot longer battery life with the VTC5, whereas with the AW IMR I could run the battery into the ground in a day. VTC5 is giving me a solid day and a half of no worries.
 
Severmore

Severmore

Well-Known Member
I definitely noticed a difference switching from the Panasonic CGR18650CHs to the Sony VTC5s. Not so much with the EO cart, but the LL cart...woohoo.

Yet, I've never purchased the stock NCR18650PD batteries from TET, so I've never had a proper comparison.
 
Haywood

Haywood

Onward Thru the Fog
OF said:
I'm sorry for not being clearer. By 'weaker' I'm still referring to the TV recommended/sold units. Are you saying that say the CGR18650CH and NCR18650PD with a fresh charge are outperformed by the Sony when it's been used 4 or 5 minutes? Or AW IMRs?

OF
Click to expand...
No, I was referring to the high capacity, low current batteries, like the 3000+mAh 8 amp batteries, especially those with a protective circuit board. (the CH is a great cell; haven't tried the PD; the 1600mAh AW IMR is also a great cell, but the VT5 has 900mAh-ish more useful capacity over the AW IMR).

And what's wrong with an additional 10 or 15 minutes? :)

I'm off to the airport in 6 hours to come to your side of the country, so I can't dig up the charts and show the info; maybe in a day or two once I'm in LA. I swear I posted all this info, including pictures, a year ago in the Thermovape thread, but I don't have time to search now...

Quetzalcoatl said:
I wish there was a website where you could just plug in the batteries and it would show you the graphs to compare!
Click to expand...
@Quetzalcoatl: There IS a web site with tests of a jillion different batteries, and will allow you to overlay the discharge curves at multiple loads. I'll dig up a link in a day or two, or just search a zillion of my posts in the Thermovape thread...
 
OF

OF

Well-Known Member
Quetzalcoatl said:
@OF I know you like numbers and science so take a look at these charts and graphs and letter-number combinations that make me question my sanity. Might be a bit revealing for you WRT current battery discussion:

http://www.intaste.de/community/dtf/technical_information.pdf

Also I've found the VTC5 to be much more favorable compared to my AW IMR. Longer battery life, more consistent hits throughout, though I'm subjecting them to sub-ohm ejuice vaping (.8ohm single coil). I get a lot longer battery life with the VTC5, whereas with the AW IMR I could run the battery into the ground in a day. VTC5 is giving me a solid day and a half of no worries.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I've seen similar graphs and (of course) tend to stare at them some. Look, for instance at the 45 or so point on the recharge, about 80% where we'd expect this guy to be after 5 minutes or so of serious discharge. Reading the voltage scale says were what, 4.0 Volts? That's .2 less than the fresh charged one, a much larger drop than internal resistance causes. I say the 'lesser' battery will provide more current (and therefore heat) at that point.

They all do this, of course, voltage (and therefore current) drops more or less linearly as they discharge. Assuming say a one Ohm load they start at 4.2 Volts (and 4.2 Amps) for 17.6 Watts. When discharged, say 3.3 Volts we're down to 3.3 Amps for a total of 10.9 Watts. That's a 38% drop in power, way more than the possible differences in internal resistance can cause in charged batteries of different types. I think.

Likewise I think AW IMRs may do very well, but agree their capacity is much less......but we're not talking capacity here.

I don't doubt for a minute the Sony batteries are a good choice, I'm just not sure they're enough better than otherwise good batteries in common use to justify buying a bunch of new ones (and trashing the older ones?).

I may end up buying one just to play with it, but to be honest I've got a bunch of good 18650s I'm plenty happy with.

I wonder how a 'blind' test would come out? Would guys pick a 'five minutes old' Sony over a fresh Panasonic? Could they even tell you the difference without peeking?

Haywood said:
No, I was referring to the high capacity, low current batteries, like the 3000+mAh 8 amp batteries, especially those with a protective circuit board. (the CH is a great cell; haven't tried the PD; the 1600mAh AW IMR is also a great cell, but the VT5 has 900mAh-ish more useful capacity over the AW IMR).

And what's wrong with an additional 10 or 15 minutes? :)

There IS a web site with tests of a jillion different batteries, and will allow you to overlay the discharge curves at multiple loads. I'll dig up a link in a day or two, or just search a zillion of my posts in the Thermovape thread...[/user]
Click to expand...

Thanks, makes more sense now. Nothing at all wrong with more run time, the very reason I use the Panasonics not the AW IMRs........

I recall that site (at least I think we're talking about the same one.....) and bookmarked it, but seem to have lost it in the last computer adventure.......

Like I said, it might be time to invent a 'Cera battery tester'.

OF
 
Patrick Hughes

Patrick Hughes

Stoneman
Quetzalcoatl said:
@OF I know you like numbers and science so take a look at these charts and graphs and letter-number combinations that make me question my sanity. Might be a bit revealing for you WRT current battery discussion:

http://www.intaste.de/community/dtf/technical_information.pdf

I wish there was a website where you could just plug in the batteries and it would show you the graphs to compare!


Also I've found the VTC5 to be much more favorable compared to my AW IMR. Longer battery life, more consistent hits throughout, though I'm subjecting them to sub-ohm ejuice vaping (.8ohm single coil). I get a lot longer battery life with the VTC5, whereas with the AW IMR I could run the battery into the ground in a day. VTC5 is giving me a solid day and a half of no worries.
Click to expand...

would you be willing to link to a reputable supply? every seller I can find through google and ebay searches has at least some claim of knockoffery in the comment section (amazon reviews often make me think they are lumping sellers together). I want to try these but I hate to get beat
 
Patrick Hughes,
Quetzalcoatl

Quetzalcoatl

DEADY GUERRERO/DIRT COBAIN/GEORGE KUSH
Patrick Hughes said:
would you be willing to link to a reputable supply? every seller I can find through google and ebay searches has at least some claim of knockoffery in the comment section (amazon reviews often make me think they are lumping sellers together). I want to try these but I hate to get beat
Click to expand...
The good online sites I checked seem to be out of stock for now. I bought mine locally from a trusted shop. VaporDNA offers singles for $13 a piece, I paid a little more for mine but had it in hand right away ;)

http://www.vapordna.com/Sony-VTC5-18650-3-7V-2600-mAh-30A-IMR-Battery-p/bt0001.htm

KidneyPuncher has then for $15 but again they're also out of stock.

http://www.kidneypuncher.com/sony-us18650vtc5-2600-mah/

Personally I think you're doing yourself a service by wanting to buy from a reputable source; I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable playing around with counterfeit batteries for these applications. Maybe if there's an ecig shop around your area with good reviews you could try asking them... don't be surprised to pay more, though. I only gave them a buck and change over VaporDNA's asking price, but I've heard of other stores selling them for as much as $20 a piece :disgust:
 
OF

OF

Well-Known Member
Quetzalcoatl said:
KidneyPuncher has then for $15 but again they're also out of stock.
Click to expand...

Love it.

There's an old Bennett Cerf story about the guy who goes into a shoe store to try on size 10 Wing Tips (I told you it was an old story.....). The clerk fits him carefully, verifies color and when the shopper is satisfied says 'that'll be $25, please'. The guy says, 'that's nuts, the guy across the street only charges $20', so the clerk says, 'maybe you should buy them there, then'.

The fellow then says, 'I'd love to, but he's out of brown in size 10'. 'Oh' said the clerk, 'come back when we're out of them, they're only $15 then......'.

OF
 
C

CapoRoot2

Member
Hello

I just bought a TV Cera, I was hoping someone can confirm that the Panasonic CGR18650 3.7v 2250 mah batteries are the best batteries available for this vaporizer.

Also would like to know which model you guys are using to charge the batteries.

Thanks again! Any other feedback would be great!
 
OF

OF

Well-Known Member
CapoRoot2 said:
Hello

I just bought a TV Cera, I was hoping someone can confirm that the Panasonic CGR18650 3.7v 2250 mah batteries are the best batteries available for this vaporizer.

Also would like to know which model you guys are using to charge the batteries.

Thanks again! Any other feedback would be great!
Click to expand...

First off, welcome to the Forum and the fun. Tasty choice.

Who's to say which is best? That battery is an excellent one, you won't go wrong with it.

I use an assortment of chargers, actually, the key feature is high charging current. Half an Amp minimum, one Amp is better. I'd stick with 'name brands' of course. The one TV sells is excellent for the job.

If you're getting the LL version, by all means read up on 'the 3 steps'. They hold the key to success I think. There's some good information under the 'Vaporpedia' link upper left.

Enjoy your Cera, you picked a good one for sure.

OF
 
C

CapoRoot2

Member
OF said:
First off, welcome to the Forum and the fun. Tasty choice.

Who's to say which is best? That battery is an excellent one, you won't go wrong with it.

I use an assortment of chargers, actually, the key feature is high charging current. Half an Amp minimum, one Amp is better. I'd stick with 'name brands' of course. The one TV sells is excellent for the job.

If you're getting the LL version, by all means read up on 'the 3 steps'. They hold the key to success I think. There's some good information under the 'Vaporpedia' link upper left.

Enjoy your Cera, you picked a good one for sure.

OF
Click to expand...
Thanks for the quick reply and welcome! This is temporary account because for some reason after I sign in it just loads for ages and eventually times out but I would get started! haha ANYWAYS..

I currently running with the Persei/Hercules SR-74 combo so I am a bit familiar with vaporizers but this thing just isn't giving me the clouds it advertised! I am a concentrate guy and see a couple youtube videos of people hauling huge clouds so I decided to grab the EO.

I will be running with a Tenergy Battery Charger, I'll have to see if it does the job when it arrives.

Can the EO vape all concentrates or best just to stay with oil?

mod note: This account has been closed because we do not allow duplicate accounts. The correct approach is to determine why the first account is having problems.
 
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CapoRoot2,
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Quetzalcoatl

Quetzalcoatl

DEADY GUERRERO/DIRT COBAIN/GEORGE KUSH
CapoRoot2 said:
Thanks for the quick reply and welcome! This is temporary account because for some reason after I sign in it just loads for ages and eventually times out but I would get started! haha ANYWAYS..

I currently running with the Persei/Hercules SR-74 combo so I am a bit familiar with vaporizers but this thing just isn't giving me the clouds it advertised! I am a concentrate guy and see a couple youtube videos of people hauling huge clouds so I decided to grab the EO.

I will be running with a Tenergy Battery Charger, I'll have to see if it does the job when it arrives.

Can the EO vape all concentrates or best just to stay with oil?
Click to expand...
The Tenergy Charger is fine, not the most upgraded fancy charger but it does what it needs to do. You'll want to stick to oils with very little to no particulates/plant matter. The various forms of hash oil, shatter, wax, sap, Pure Gold/CO2 oil, will work well in there. Stuff like bubble hash, kief, and the melts will be better in the loose leaf core, either by themselves or with a bit of herb mixed in.
 
C

CapoRoot2

Member
Quetzalcoatl said:
The Tenergy Charger is fine, not the most upgraded fancy charger but it does what it needs to do. You'll want to stick to oils with very little to no particulates/plant matter. The various forms of hash oil, shatter, wax, sap, Pure Gold/CO2 oil, will work well in there. Stuff like bubble hash, kief, and the melts will be better in the loose leaf core, either by themselves or with a bit of herb mixed in.
Click to expand...
Awesome! Pretty pumped to get my hands on this thing. Should be here the end of the week and hopefully wont have too many more questions if all goes well!

Any special techniques using the EO (pumping the power instead of full on, etc)? or its pretty straight forward?
 
OF

OF

Well-Known Member
CapoRoot2 said:
I will be running with a Tenergy Battery Charger, I'll have to see if it does the job when it arrives.

Can the EO vape all concentrates or best just to stay with oil?
Click to expand...

Cool, Tenergy makes a lot of chargers, but if it's the one TV sells it's a good one, they tested a pile of them when they developed the Cera, I got a couple to Beta test along the way, this one's the best of the lot for this use I think (fastest charge, highest voltage).

In general you want the same sorts of concentrates as with D9 gear, "Supermelts or better". Depend on the foil test, some taffies and 'full melts' have enough residue to cause fouling issues. The Cera LL will do a bang up job on bubble and pressed hashes. Waxes seem good, usually, I think, but lots of guys have troubles loading shatters and some of the 'cake type' BHOs (once loaded they work fine).

Remember, you can easily Iso soak and boil your carts to clear them out, but you loose maybe .2 grams each time. Weigh your cart dry, add half a gram at first (it might do OK with more, but come up on it). Top up again when you get down to .25 or so until you get the feel for it.

Enjoy, I think you'll find it a step up.

OF
 
Quetzalcoatl

Quetzalcoatl

DEADY GUERRERO/DIRT COBAIN/GEORGE KUSH
CapoRoot2 said:
Awesome! Pretty pumped to get my hands on this thing. Should be here the end of the week and hopefully wont have too many more questions if all goes well!

Any special techniques using the EO (pumping the power instead of full on, etc)? or its pretty straight forward?
Click to expand...
Mmm... for oils, you'll want to keep a buffer in there and add some oil. You don't really want to dip into the buffer because then you end up with less buffer, less oil being subjected to heat making it taste bad. It's really just a matter of loading it, pressing the button, and inhaling. This thing just leaks vapor out of the mouthpiece as soon as you pull on it.

And by leaks I mean it will choke you out if you let it.
 
C

CapoRoot2

Member
OF said:
Cool, Tenergy makes a lot of chargers, but if it's the one TV sells it's a good one, they tested a pile of them when they developed the Cera, I got a couple to Beta test along the way, this one's the best of the lot for this use I think (fastest charge, highest voltage).

In general you want the same sorts of concentrates as with D9 gear, "Supermelts or better". Depend on the foil test, some taffies and 'full melts' have enough residue to cause fouling issues. The Cera LL will do a bang up job on bubble and pressed hashes. Waxes seem good, usually, I think, but lots of guys have troubles loading shatters and some of the 'cake type' BHOs (once loaded they work fine).

Remember, you can easily Iso soak and boil your carts to clear them out, but you loose maybe .2 grams each time. Weigh your cart dry, add half a gram at first (it might do OK with more, but come up on it). Top up again when you get down to .25 or so until you get the feel for it.

Enjoy, I think you'll find it a step up.

OF
Click to expand...

Quetzalcoatl said:
Mmm... for oils, you'll want to keep a buffer in there and add some oil. You don't really want to dip into the buffer because then you end up with less buffer, less oil being subjected to heat making it taste bad. It's really just a matter of loading it, pressing the button, and inhaling. This thing just leaks vapor out of the mouthpiece as soon as you pull on it.

And by leaks I mean it will choke you out if you let it.
Click to expand...

GUYS STOP BEFORE I RUN TO CA MYSELF TO GE THIS THING! haha

I cannot wait, and you guys rule. Thanks for the quick replies!

I'll report back with a review after I have tried it out! Hopefully I will be absolutely caked while writing this review ;) Take care guys!
 
VapoRoor

VapoRoor

DAB-a-DAB I'll dooooo
tavosvo said:
Yes the pinnacle is AWESOME for the LL cart as well as the EO if you are into water conditioning! I had to add o-rings in between the existing o-rings to make a good seal, I bet the rings that come with nothingtoseeher's MP would work perfect for the TET GonG piece
Click to expand...

So was this ever proven?
If so, Is there a better water tool to use?
I know the Cera has great flavor, but summers here and it's gettin' HOT
 
VapoRoor,
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