Vaporizing temperature charts: where do they come from?

pakalolo said:

Because it eliminates combustion. The Herbalaire's deswentts thoroughly, so you don't need a higher temperature. It's a common misconception that you have to reach the boiling point of a compound to extract it. All components start to vapourize at temperatures well below the boiling point. You can turn a pot of water completely into vapour by maintaining a temperature of 90°C (194°F) or even much lower. Cannabis compounds are no different.

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Yes, that water will turn completely into vapor at 194f, but it will take much longer, then if you went straight to 212f. For some that isn't a problem but to me, the whole point of smoking/vaping is because of how quick and efficient the extraction is. If you are paying a good amount of money for a vaporizer I think it should have exact or close to vaping temperatures so you can go straight to what you want to vape without having to figure out where you are at in temperature or needing to do a long session to do a complete extraction. Don't get me wrong long sessions are fun, but sometimes fast ones are needed. I would like to have that option if I'm paying hundreds of dollars which is the price most vaporizers run for.

Optimizing your extraction efficiency with thermal desorption is more than just temperature, imo.

I've worked in air sample analysis for years, and we used thermal desorption to flash heat our air samples into our gas chromatograph/mass spectrometer for analysis. We tested a variety of flow types and designs as part of our overall QA/QC protocol.

Temperature is just one controllable parameter when thermally desorbing (vapourizing). The flow design can be a critical controllable parameter, as well.

Most all vapourizers use a straight through, somewhat laminar flow that requires grinding of our herb, because this flow just doesn't penetrate very well, and needs more surface area exposed to work better. The air flow can be blocked if the bud is compressed too tightly.

The Herbalaire's design incorporated these 18 strategically placed "jets" (immediately before the cruc, or bowl) that create a more turbulent air flow. In effect, it is diffusing the air, just before the pack, resulting in the pack getting hit in all directions, simultaneously, as well creating a slight pressure drop at the same "jets" If anyone has flown through "turbulence", they know the feeling. (The pump also "pulses" it's air flow, which enhances the extraction, even more, imo).

This air flow design penetrates the load much more evenly and thoroughly, in fact, it is why there is no grinding required at all. Even dense, compressed, full nugs, will come out, fully and evenly cooked all the way through, light tan at low temps up to deep brown, almost black, at high temps, with never any green remaining. I know of no other vapourizer that can do this, at this time, and this thing is over 10 years old!

In addition, this air flow design penetrates and extracts so well, that I firmly believe that it works better if you compress the bud and try to block the air flow, giving it some resistance to push against. I tried to block the air flow intentionally by compressing the crap out of a load, but could not do it. Think of purging with butane to make BHO. The liquid bute is such a good extractor that you need to compress the bud tightly to give it some resistance, or more "residence time" in the bud, to optimize the yield.

This is why the HA can be so effective, even at 400F, as a max. It's their unique flow design, combined with its excellent heat retention and temperature precision. Quickest and most efficient extraction methodology, imo.

@nicelytoasted
I agree on the jets and pressure drop helping extraction but I don't think that is the main think causing the high extraction. I think its the fact that when you use dense bud, you are getting conduction to happen also. When you have hot air being forced to go through the bud as well as have a hot chamber where the herb is sitting, it will cause the temperature to rise inside the herb since the dense bud will have pockets of trapped hot air that will just rise in temperature as the air travels through the bowl. The hot metal surrounding the herb will also add to the conduction effects. This conduction will degrade some of the oils since it will take a while for them to escape compared to just having a loose bowl, and exact temperature which will boil the substances off much quicker and no or less, degradation. This conduction effect is probably why they stayed at 400f, because if you go higher, based on the way the herbalaire is designed, you may have combustion in the chamber. This will really happen easily if you have some sticky icky, high in oils, type herb.

Secondly, because it uses jets as a way of forcing air through the dense bud, this means a lot of air will dilute the vapor. Yeah, it will be thick but too much dilution for some such as myself. I'm not dissing the herbelaire just showing another point of view. For some it is lovely.

Luchiano:

I'm curious, do you have any scientific education, training, accreditation, or experience at all?

No accreditation, chose other ways to get money but loved science in school as well as in my everyday life. Everything around you is science, I just love observing it and seeing how things work then manipulating that knowledge for my benefit.

I'm not trying to knock you, Luchiano, but making all the assumptions that you seem to in here (see post 28 above, and many previous postings), without having the proper theoretical scientific background, experience and/or knowledge to base these assumptions on, makes most your manipulating this "knowledge" in this forum, questionable in general, at best. You need a solid fundamental, theoretical basis from which to form any reasonable scientific premise(s), imo. The act of vapourizing is a relatively straight forward, however, the science behind it is ultra complicated.

Even if I'm relatively certain about some scientific points (with scientific reasoning and conclusions), I make sure to clarify them by adding: in my opinion. I notice that you rarely ever do this, even with subjective opinion. Please endeavour to do so, there's enough misinformation on this board (and the internet), as is, imo.

Thanks

Ntd

nicelytoasted said:

I'm not trying to knock you, Luchiano, but making all the assumptions that you seem to in here (see post 28 above, and many previous postings), without having the proper theoretical scientific background, experience and/or knowledge to base these assumptions on, makes most your manipulating this "knowledge" in this forum, questionable in general, at best. You need a solid fundamental, theoretical basis from which to form any reasonable scientific premise(s), imo. The act of vapourizing is a relatively straight forward, however, the science behind it is ultra complicated.

Even if I'm relatively certain about some scientific points (with scientific reasoning and conclusions), I make sure to clarify them by adding: in my opinion. I notice that you rarely ever do this, even with subjective opinion. Please endeavour to do so, there's enough misinformation on this board, as is, imo.

Thanks

Ntd

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Oh I forgot, ALLEGEDLY. That's because you found "I think" not good enough.

And those assumptions have mostly been prove to be right by my findings, others I know in real life, and the few who listen on the net. Im not mad at your posting because this always happens when someone feels that someone is going against them. At least you didn't curse me out, but I guess that's human emotions for you. Some can control the emotions and other let the emotions control them. Life I guess. Tough titty. I get what I want at least.

Btw, instead of posting an emotion, why didnt you just give a rebuttal to what I posted?. If you believe in the sciences so much, your thoughts on how Im wrong would have been nice and welcomed but instead you question me and go on a rant about my postings. Very scientific. Peace out.

What rant?

I merely pointed out that some of your posts lack much scientific validity, and that you pose your plethora of subjective opinion as "facts", without the proper background or training, or any legitimate data sets to support them. You're not going against me, you're going against traditional science, in general.

You want a rebuttal? Well post 28 is so chalk full of non-scientific assumptions and convoluted conclusions that I didn't really know where to start...

I guess I hit a nerve, huh?

Not emotional, quite scientific.

"Peace out"

OK buddy. You see what you want to see. If I don't put allegedly or I think in the post, I forgot to. All you have to do is try what I post. If it doesn't work for you, then move on. Like I stated, the few who do try say they work, on this site so why is it you haven't seen these posts?. Too emotional to admit when another way of doing things work from yours?. You can try to be cool but your posts reads emotional all over them. I'm laughing because you still didn't offer a rebuttal, just complaining. C'mon buddy, you can do better then that!.

Just joking. Go have fun with your herbalaire and thick clouds. I'm happy for you.

EDIT:I forgot to mention that I do post articles showing the validity of some of my claims, why haven't you seen those?. One major one dealt with clouds and absorption yet most people didn't even pay it any attention and the only people that replied about it were @Hippie Dickie and another person who I can't remember. I guess you just happened to miss that one as well. Maybe you were in the lab vaping right?. Gotta get nicely toasted!.

luchiano said:

You can try to be cool but your posts reads emotional all over them.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_pot_calling_the_kettle_black

MG23 said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_pot_calling_the_kettle_black

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WOW.....Thanks for letting me know. Woohoo.

luchiano said:

OK buddy. You see what you want to see. If I don't put allegedly or I think in the post, I forgot to. All you have to do is try what I post. If it doesn't work for you, then move on. Like I stated, the few who do try say they work, on this site so why is it you haven't seen these posts?. Too emotional to admit when another way of doing things work from yours?. You can try to be cool but your posts reads emotional all over them. I'm laughing because you still didn't offer a rebuttal, just complaining. C'mon buddy, you can do better then that!.

Just joking. Go have fun with your herbalaire and thick clouds. I'm happy for you.

EDIT:I forgot to mention that I do post articles showing the validity of some of my claims, why haven't you seen those?. One major one dealt with clouds and absorption yet most people didn't even pay it any attention and the only people that replied about it were @Hippie Dickie and another person who I can't remember. I guess you just happened to miss that one as well. Maybe you were in the lab vaping right?. Gotta get nicely toasted!.

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This isn't about you failing to use "allegedly", which is not the correct word here at all incidentally. Your theories are questioned because quite frankly, they violate the laws of thermodynamics. For example, you said:

luchiano said:

When you have hot air being forced to go through the bud as well as have a hot chamber where the herb is sitting, it will cause the temperature to rise inside the herb since the dense bud will have pockets of trapped hot air that will just rise in temperature as the air travels through the bowl.

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The temperature can't rise beyond the temperature of the incoming air. You cannot get more out of a closed system than you put in. This is why there are no perpetual motion machines. See the second law of thermodynamics.

Another example: you talk about conduction in densely packed herd, but plant matter is an insulator and a notoriously bad conductor. This is why you can hold onto a joint. There is no conduction heating trapped oils. Your ideas about trapped oils have been debunked before, although I realize that you don't accept that. We're not going into that again here.

There are other flaws in your explanations, but I just wanted to illustrate why you are being challenged. It has nothing to do with people not reading your theories, it's exactly the opposite. Your ideas reveal a lack of science, hence nicelytoasted's query. Further, whenever someone points this out you lash out as though you're being picked on. Being called on bad science is not done to pick on you, it's done to avoid spreading bad information.

Finally, your insinuations about nicelytoasted's motives are dangerously close to breaking our "Be nice" rule. Please post about the subject and not other members.

@pakalolo


1-You fail to realize that the chamber is not just a closed system with nothing in it, it has herb in it which has some oil. If you blow air through it, and it is densely packed some air would be trapped in the inside of the herb. As the pump infuses a lot of hot air into the herb and it moves along, some of this trapped air, it will gather up heat since the faster a molecule goes, and the denser it is, the hotter it becomes. It might not be outrageously hot but, hot enough to go past the temperature you set the vaporizer at. This is why when cooking with oil you can have the temperature constant yet the oil gets hotter as time goes on. It goes deeper but basically oil is the culprit, and it effects the plant cellulose. Linking second law of thermodynamics was nice but you didn't think it through for what we are talking about.

The fact that you claim you can extract everything out of the herbalaire at 400f is proof that your statement of an enclosed system never changing is wrong in this situation. You are not even listening to yourself by spending so much time going against me. How can you get black abv or light tan abv and extract everything from 400f if the temperature stayed constant?. Hmmmmm. This is what nicely toasted posted happens with the herbalaire.

2-What are you talking about?. A joint is a few inches long, that is why you can hold onto it, as well as its high in plant cellulose, but the closer you get to the heat source the harder it is to hold. As you inhale fresh air through the joint it gets hotter and extracts due to the air molecules moving faster and being trapped in an enclosed space. Try lighting a loose joint and see what happens. Nothing that's what, and its because the air never gets a chance to stay in one place, and move faster as the fresh air is sent to the plant fibers, so the oil and cellulose never reach that critical point of combustion. A nice and tight joint will easily catch fire. Anyone, with good herb knows the more oily or sticky the herb is the easier it is to stay lit, and that's because of what I previously described. You didn't debunk anything, you took what I posted and worded it towards your benefit. We just agreed to disagree, that isn't debunking anything.

3-Yeah, whatever. Its called being passive aggressive, you know it and I know it. Its one thing if my radical "theories" did not prove to work then I can understand, that hasn't happened but I get this passive aggressiveness from some. Very few I will say but when I do you seem to be at the top of the list. You have an issue with my "know it all" attitude and you know it. When I was younger I was told people wouldnt like me for it, and especially if Im proven right over time but its your loss not mine because I contributed a healthy amount of info that has helped people as well as they have helped me. Yeah ban me, that's why you waved that little subtle threat. You aren't hurting me. I'm the one lending info to the community. You can dislike it for certain reasons, cool, but if some say it works for them at the time I post it or eventually, why come at me with the passive aggressive attitude?. All the nice talking is to not make a stupid situation worse but you have an attitude with people who don't agree with you just like nicelytoasted did. Like I posted why not just rebuttal me instead of making it personal?. You know and I know, its called being childish. You can now do what you always wanted to do and ban me now.

luchiano said:

@pakalolo


1-You fail to realize that the chamber is not just a closed system with nothing in it, it has herb in it which has some oil. If you blow air through it, and it is densely packed some air would be trapped in the inside of the herb. As hot air moves along some of this trapped air, it will gather up heat since the faster a molecule goes, the hotter it becomes. It might not be outrageously hot but, hot enough to go past the temperature you set the vaporizer at. This is why when cooking with oil you can have the temperature constant yet the oil gets hotter as time goes on. It goes deeper but basically oil is the culprit, and it effects the plant cellulose. Linking second law of thermodynamics was nice but you didn't think it through for what we are talking about.

2-What are you talking about?. A joint is a few inches long, that is why you can hold onto it, as well as its high in plant cellulose, but the closer you get to the heat source the harder it is to hold. Anyone, with good herb knows the more oily or sticky the herb is the easier it is to stay lit, and that's because of what I previously described. You didn't debunk anything, you took what I posted and worded it towards your benefit. We just agreed to disagree, that isn't debunking anything.

3-Yeah, whatever. Its called being passive aggressive, you know it and I know it. Its one thing if my radical "theories" did not prove to work then I can understand, that hasn't happened but I get this passive aggressiveness from some. Very few I will say but when I do you seem to be at the top of the list. You have an issue with my "know it all" attitude and you know it. When I was younger I was told people wouldnt like me for it, and especially if Im proven right over time but its your loss not mine because I contributed a healthy amount of info that has helped people as well as they have helped me. Yeah ban me, that's why you waved that little subtle threat. You aren't hurting me. I'm the one lending info to the community. You can dislike it for certain reasons, cool, but if some say it works for them at the time I post it or eventually, why come at me with the passive aggressive attitude?. All the nice talking is to not make a stupid situation worse but you have an attitude with people who don't agree with you just like nicelytoasted did. Like I posted why not just rebuttal me instead of making it personal?. You know and I know, its called being childish. You can now do what you always wanted to do and ban me now.

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1) You obviously do not understand thermodynamics.

2) In my experience, sticky herb is harder to keep lit.

3) I posted rebuttals to your ideas, but you ignored them—exactly what you accuse me and others of doing. You aren't helping the community, you're hurting it because you are spreading bad information.

I didn't make it personal, you did. Instead of taking the break I gave you, you accused me of being passive-agressive and threw it in my face with an insult, then defied me to ban you in a highly passive-agressive way. I guess you figure it's a win-win for you: if I give you a point then you can say I'm abusing my power, and if I don't you can thumb your nose at me. Either way you wouldn't get banned because it would be your first point.

In cases like this, I leave the decision about points to the other moderators without recommendation. Despite your belief that I've always wanted to ban you, all I've ever wanted to do is make sure that someone corrects your errors.

pakalolo said:

1) You obviously do nthermodynamics thermodynamics.

2) In my experience, sticky herb is harder to keep lit.

3) I posted rebuttals to your ideas, but you ignored them—exactly what you accuse me and others of doing. You aren't helping the community, you're hurting it because you are spreading bad information.

I didn't make it personal, you did. Instead of taking the break I gave you, you accused me of being passive-agressive and threw it in my face with an insult, then defied me to ban you in a highly passive-agressive way. I guess you figure it's a win-win for you: if I give you a point then you can say I'm abusing my power, and if I don't you can thumb your nose at me. Either way you wouldn't get banned because it would be your first point.

In cases like this, I leave the decision about points to the other moderators without recommendation. Despite your belief that I've always wanted to ban you, all I've ever wanted to do is make sure that someone corrects your errors.

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1-Like I stated your own statements make no sense. How can you get all these different outcomes from the same temperature if what you say is true?.

2-No, wet herb is hard to stay lit. Try to out some regular hash which is high in plant fibers and see how that goes. You can put it aside and it will still have smoke being released. The same for a sticky icky joint that is rolled nice and tight(not too tight) or a candle.

3-if it weren't for me seeing for myself people letting me know what a lot of what I say is true from their experience, or just overtime they end up doing what I said will happen, I would believe you but I know for a fact that isn't true.

4-You have a vivid imagination. I wasn't thinking about any of that, so you can keep those theories. You know what time it is and what's going on, you have an attitudes with me and others whom question what you say. I've seen time and time again. I may get banned but the site owners need to look at you and how you come at people with the passive aggressiveness.

Since I may get banned. Peace to the good people on here who can debate without taking things personal(me right? Whatever). And especially to the out of pocket thinkers like @Buildozer , and @Hippie Dickie. Maybe I can get your product one day and support a good brother. @Buildozer look into selling those accessories we talked about last year to lower the atmospheric pressure. That's if you remember since its been a while. Anyway, it was fun everyone. PEACE.

luchiano said:

1-Like I stated your own statements make no sense. How can you get all these different outcomes from the same temperature if what you say is true?.

2-No, wet herb is hard to stay lit. Try to out some regular hash which is high in plant fibers and see how that goes. You can put it aside and it will still have smoke being released. The same for a sticky icky joint that is rolled nice and tight(not too tight)

3-if it weren't for me seeing for myself people letting me know what a lot of what I say is true from their experience, or just overtime they end up doing what I said will happen, I would believe you but I know for a fact that isn't true.

4-You have a vivid imagination. I wasn't thinking about any of that, so you can keep those theories. You know what time it is and what's going on, you have an attitudes with me and others whom question what you say. I've seen time and time again. I may get banned but the site owners need to look at you and how you come at people with the passive aggressiveness.

Since I may get banned. Peace to the good people on here who can debate without taking things personal(me right? Whatever). And especially to the out of pocket thinkers like @Buildozer , and @Hippie Dickie. Maybe I can get your product one day and support a good brother. @Buildozer look into selling those accessories we talked about last year to lower the atmospheric pressure. That's if you remember since its been a while. Anyway, it was fun everyone. PEACE.

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Luchiano, I'm not banning you. I am giving you a point for this gem, however. Not only are you publicly questioning staff decisions, but you sure as hell aren't being very nice either.

You clearly do not have a firm grasp of thermodynamics. You should re-read the previously stated reasons why in the posts above. It does matter when you don't clarify that your theories are only your opinion and not based on accepted scientific norms. Please be sure to qualify your statements going forward.

Stu said:

Luchiano, I'm not banning you. I am giving you a point for this gem, however. Not only are you publicly questioning staff decisions, but you sure as hell aren't being very nice either.

You clearly do not have a firm grasp of thermodynamics. You should re-read the previously stated reasons why in the posts above. It does matter when you don't clarify that your theories are only your opinion and not based on accepted scientific norms. Please be sure to qualify your statements going forward.

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Ok but when I did in the past, it still didnt get recognized and some still made the same statements they wanted to make.

As far as thermodynamics it is just that dynamic. Once you add something to the equation(in this case herb to the vaporizer) you have to take that into account as to what is happening. Look at the herbalizer post about two people catching a fire in the bowl. I was the only one that offered an anwer yet I get this statement of it makes no sense. Well if it makes no sense why wont anyone else who is arguing against me give their reasons why this has happened. It never happens, just arguing with me about why Im wrong.

All I do is try to offer what has worked for me. I can get anyone ultra high off of very little herb with vaporizers and little to no clouds and I want others to feel the same thing so i give different ways to achieve this. I'm not bragging but trust me very few can handle what I can, and vaporizers got me there. I also got there because I thought differently from what I was told coming from the smoking world, and Im giving you this knowledge that has been proven in my life. Look at a post I did about needing no clouds to get higher off of very little herb And clouds raising your tolerance and why this happens. Very few people went with it but all of a sudden the herbalizer is released and its a new concept. I can go on and on with this but you get the point. I will defend myself when I feel i have something to stand on and proof of it in real life. Just because you(not personal) dont understand it doesnt mean its not true. If this knowledge was in the world i wouldnt be here posting it.

@luchiano Your habit of claiming that the staff here is out to ban you, or that you're about to be banned is unfounded and personally I find it a bit offensive. You've been a member here for over 5 years, have 748 posts, and yet you haven't been given a single warning point until now. I'd say that this is rather generous and patient of the staff here considering the number of times you've been asked to back up your claims.

The forum rules are quite clear in this regard:

• Please try to stay within your area of experience when commenting or advising.
• Do not state opinion as fact, we don’t want to spread misinformation. Please qualify your statements and provide references when making claims.

This thread is a breath of fresh air --at least it was before the derail-- as it's painfully clear that more reputable scientific studies are needed in this field. Personal opinions based on personal experience can be useful, but if they don't hold up under scrutiny it's not a fault of the questioner. Challenging a hypothesis is an important part of the scientific method.

Let's not forget that we're all after the same thing here. The rules posted above exist to help facilitate that, so please respect them.

I take no pleasure in getting the last word in here, however, this thread needs to get back on topic. Further off-topic posts will likely be removed. Thank you.

Back on topic so as I see it you can't vape everything out of flowers otherwise abv would have no effects?

Combusting wastes some as it literally goes up in smoke and the higher temps also effect some % of what you get. I also read mixing it with tobacco lowers the hit too?

Vaping you don't get much wastage pretty low if you recycle the abv.

I've got a fat pot of abv might have to test it out in butter.

Didn't realise vaping was so complex

Discussing this topic with hubby in the bedroom this morning (with Nano and cats, of course, and Coffee),

I would LOVE to see a study done that gives us the temperature range that various compounds are vaporized/available/volitizing at. If stuff starts volitizing at 150F-ish, then instead of the boiling point (basically, the END of it vaporizing off), that is important stuff, IMO, to know.

Boiling point then, would be the upper limit of where you are getting these compounds, right?