The ethnobotanical thread

vorrange said:

I have to disagree with you guys. Cannabis affects the liver, kidney and brain mostly.

With vaporizing and combustion there is an added damage to the lungs.


All those herbs do indeed help, they have been used for other things and these guys adapted them to what they coined "cannabis addiction".

I agree the terms they use are ambiguous and prone to many interpretations but there are long term abusers and there are people who need to detox from the cannabinoids in their system and their effect on the body organs.

Now, despite that, it is clear they have a marketing angle in their affirmations and they recommend smoking the herbs as a substitution which is stupid. It is also clear that they have no real knowledge of the quantities needed and how best ot use them.

I'd look for essential oils of these plants and if i did not find them i'd try and make tea out of them. Many others things can be used. Beet root is a great blood cleanser so its great for kidney and lungs for example.
Aromatic plants like peppermint, or cilantro also have beneficial properties.

Snappo, you don't know if there is any real truth about RSO? Really? Why?!

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Excellent thoughts, V! Regarding my cautious intrigue with RSO, I have only been able to find anecdotal testimony from folks who've claimed to be cured directly due to 2-3 month/small daily dosages. But, I've not found any authoritative medical/oncological studies that support such cases. And mice and petri dishes only go so far. God knows how I strenuously wish for such a truth, and am always in pursuit of knowledge leading to cures for cancer. Everyone in my family has died of it and I expect to be next, but who knows who will dodge the next bullet. As tempting and compelling the testimony is for RSO efficacy, I must temper my enthusiasm for it and guard against the bite of "snake oil" syndrome. Knowledge is power.

1. Most animals have an endocannabinoid system, it is found in sea urchins even. And it has been a part of evolution for millions of years.

2. There have been studies that have successfully induced aptotosis ( kind of a cell suicide. ) after the introduction of THC. THC also has an effect on the growth of the tumors by hindering the formation of new blood vessels.

3. There has been a study with brain tumors where they were able to save some patients and others died.

As for the lack of authorative oncological studies... well, money talks and money shuts people up too. As well as research.

The argument of "there is not scientific evidence yet" is the most ridiculous argument people use and i think it is a cop out.
There is no scientific evidence because all the fucking studies are concerned on finding what cannabis damages when abused. The same happens with herbal remedies... pharmaceutical are concentrated doses of an active ingredient. Plants are the "unconcentrated equivalent". But i fail to see many studies about concentrated plants being used as medicine. And then they say there is no scientific evidence to prove the worth of so called alternative medicine. (when modern medicine is the alternative since it is 100years old and most medicine nowadays is less than 50 years old because all we do to patients is give them pharma drugs.)

I have no doubt in my mind that plants, specifically aromatic plants and some others like cannabis, opium and psychedelics are the true healers and have an amazing untapped potential.
The problem is they can't be patented and they can't profit as much if you can grow it at home and do your own medicine.

And i have no doubt in my mind that cannabis is one of the keys in cancer cure. It is not a miracle solution, especially since i believe some diseases are physical manifestations of something wrong in you or your life course and cancer is definitely included in this group.

I think tumors should be removed whenever possible, but chemotherapy and radiotherapy doesn't seem to do much considering what people suffer and the surviving rate. Plus, doctors receive a fee for using chemo treatments. So, doctors use chemotherapy as a precaution nowadays. A drug that destroys your CB1 and CB2 receptors and damages your liver almost to the point of no return, and with an average survival rate of 3% except 1 or 2 types of cancer where there is a 40% survival rate i think.
What i think should be done is much more than chemotherapy, a treatment first tested in Nazi camps.

I would stop eating animal meats and eat only organic food and stop eating any type of processed food and with any type of chemicals added. I would start (if i didn't do already) exercise and energy practices like yoga or qi gong. I would try to change everything in my life that i thought wasn't okay and should be changed.
I would stop working if i was unhappy at work. And i would treat myself with cannabis oil.
I would still to MRIs and all that to monitor the progress of the tumor. And if i died, that meant i wasn't able to solve the issues in my life.

I will not subject myself to the suffering i saw close family relatives endure, the life fading from their eyes, without being able to enjoy the dwindling time they had left.
It makes no sense. I think people who are surviving their cancers is because of their own ability of self healing. I'd like to see studies of people who took chemotherapy treatment versus people who didn't take chemotherapy and see the results.

Everyone i knew who had cancer died. Some died on the 2nd cancer. Others on the 3rd. But they died, and life was never the same after the first chemo session. Never.


To me, the medical industry is about money and about profit as well as the pharmaceutical industry.
And i don't trust them. Not when i see so many evidences of the medical industry protecting themselves at the expense and suffering of the rest.
Cannabis illegalization is just another example. Forget Cancer for a minute and consider the overwhelming evidence of the medical potencial of cannabis and the low toxicity included and consider the obstacles they put in front of its use and compare that with pharma drugs.
And now consider the suffering inflicted indirectly by the ilegalization because it took away the possibility of many people using it medicinally.

I have a close friend with Crohns Disease who never used cannabis because she's afraid of being high. I told her that it is rather easy to avoid that and that if she juices it, there is great medical benefit for her.
She still hasn't tried it. At 10€/g and in an ilegal country her only choices for juicing without breaking the bank would be to grow her own cannabis and she's too afraid to do that.
Instead she takes 10 pills a day. Much better to be a chronic pharma drug user right?

The Endocannabinoid System was discovered in 1989, 25 years ago. It still isn't taught in medical schools. A system that regulates your immune system, your neurotransmitters, your appetite, your nervous system, and many other things.
But a doctor out of medical school only knows cannabis is a drug. Unless they study in the internet reading pubmed publications.

I'm telling you, there is a deliberate attempt to shield people from natural inexpensive cures to expensive paliative care that prolongs disease at a manageable condition.
If you're waiting for sound unquestionable proof, you'll be waiting for a long time.

Aren't benzine and carbon monoxide for example pretty combustion-specific toxins?

vorrange said:

1. Most animals have an endocannabinoid system, it is found in sea urchins even. And it has been a part of evolution for millions of years.

2. There have been studies that have successfully induced aptotosis ( kind of a cell suicide. ) after the introduction of THC. THC also has an effect on the growth of the tumors by hindering the formation of new blood vessels.

3. There has been a study with brain tumors where they were able to save some patients and others died.

As for the lack of authorative oncological studies... well, money talks and money shuts people up too. As well as research.

The argument of "there is not scientific evidence yet" is the most ridiculous argument people use and i think it is a cop out.
There is no scientific evidence because all the fucking studies are concerned on finding what cannabis damages when abused. The same happens with herbal remedies... pharmaceutical are concentrated doses of an active ingredient. Plants are the "unconcentrated equivalent". But i fail to see many studies about concentrated plants being used as medicine. And then they say there is no scientific evidence to prove the worth of so called alternative medicine. (when modern medicine is the alternative since it is 100years old and most medicine nowadays is less than 50 years old because all we do to patients is give them pharma drugs.)

I have no doubt in my mind that plants, specifically aromatic plants and some others like cannabis, opium and psychedelics are the true healers and have an amazing untapped potential.
The problem is they can't be patented and they can't profit as much if you can grow it at home and do your own medicine.

And i have no doubt in my mind that cannabis is one of the keys in cancer cure. It is not a miracle solution, especially since i believe some diseases are physical manifestations of something wrong in you or your life course and cancer is definitely included in this group.

I think tumors should be removed whenever possible, but chemotherapy and radiotherapy doesn't seem to do much considering what people suffer and the surviving rate. Plus, doctors receive a fee for using chemo treatments. So, doctors use chemotherapy as a precaution nowadays. A drug that destroys your CB1 and CB2 receptors and damages your liver almost to the point of no return, and with an average survival rate of 3% except 1 or 2 types of cancer where there is a 40% survival rate i think.
What i think should be done is much more than chemotherapy, a treatment first tested in Nazi camps.

I would stop eating animal meats and eat only organic food and stop eating any type of processed food and with any type of chemicals added. I would start (if i didn't do already) exercise and energy practices like yoga or qi gong. I would try to change everything in my life that i thought wasn't okay and should be changed.
I would stop working if i was unhappy at work. And i would treat myself with cannabis oil.
I would still to MRIs and all that to monitor the progress of the tumor. And if i died, that meant i wasn't able to solve the issues in my life.

I will not subject myself to the suffering i saw close family relatives endure, the life fading from their eyes, without being able to enjoy the dwindling time they had left.
It makes no sense. I think people who are surviving their cancers is because of their own ability of self healing. I'd like to see studies of people who took chemotherapy treatment versus people who didn't take chemotherapy and see the results.

Everyone i knew who had cancer died. Some died on the 2nd cancer. Others on the 3rd. But they died, and life was never the same after the first chemo session. Never.


To me, the medical industry is about money and about profit as well as the pharmaceutical industry.
And i don't trust them. Not when i see so many evidences of the medical industry protecting themselves at the expense and suffering of the rest.
Cannabis illegalization is just another example. Forget Cancer for a minute and consider the overwhelming evidence of the medical potencial of cannabis and the low toxicity included and consider the obstacles they put in front of its use and compare that with pharma drugs.
And now consider the suffering inflicted indirectly by the ilegalization because it took away the possibility of many people using it medicinally.

I have a close friend with Crohns Disease who never used cannabis because she's afraid of being high. I told her that it is rather easy to avoid that and that if she juices it, there is great medical benefit for her.
She still hasn't tried it. At 10€/g and in an ilegal country her only choices for juicing without breaking the bank would be to grow her own cannabis and she's too afraid to do that.
Instead she takes 10 pills a day. Much better to be a chronic pharma drug user right?

The Endocannabinoid System was discovered in 1989, 25 years ago. It still isn't taught in medical schools. A system that regulates your immune system, your neurotransmitters, your appetite, your nervous system, and many other things.
But a doctor out of medical school only knows cannabis is a drug. Unless they study in the internet reading pubmed publications.

I'm telling you, there is a deliberate attempt to shield people from natural inexpensive cures to expensive paliative care that prolongs disease at a manageable condition.
If you're waiting for sound unquestionable proof, you'll be waiting for a long time.

Click to expand...

V, I am in the choir you're singing to, and I'm humming right along! All of which you speak rings true from sea to shining sea, and I am well aware. Eating right all the time, getting good regular exercise, and quitting my soul-eating job are goals I aspire to but for now must settle far short of. I make my own tincture and oil (RSO) in small amounts that I can afford as a medical malady preemptive measure (cancer), as well as for present afflictions of body & mind, and do derive some pleasure and relief. My mother, father, grandpa & grandma, and uncle all lived 100% alcohol and tobacco free, ate extremely healthy organic, loved their work, and had stress-free loving dispositions - they were not protected. I fear I am genetically predisposed as were they, and knowing just what trigger to avoid the deadly first shot that sets off all others is largely unknowable. I do what I can when I can. RSO will of course be in my arsenal, chemo will not - big pharma will not own my soul - in this I will be free to choose.

Congrats on using RSO as a prevention medicine, i plan on doing that in the future. If you haven't, start meditating too. (it has been shown to alter your genes.)
Everyone should meditate, it is as important as regular physical activity or more.

It must not be easy to lose both your parents like this, my heart goes out to you. Have you considered taking ayahuasca? Perhaps your problems are better solved in the energy realm than in the physical realm.

And about being genetically predisposed, there are a million other reasons why that happened in your family that are not explained by predisposition. Could even be something about where you live, i don't know.

vorrange said:

Congrats on using RSO as a prevention medicine, i plan on doing that in the future. If you haven't, start meditating too. (it has been shown to alter your genes.)
Everyone should meditate, it is as important as regular physical activity or more.

It must not be easy to lose both your parents like this, my heart goes out to you. Have you considered taking ayahuasca? Perhaps your problems are better solved in the energy realm than in the physical realm.

And about being genetically predisposed, there are a million other reasons why that happened in your family that are not explained by predisposition. Could even be something about where you live, i don't know.

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I have considered taking ayahuasca, but not without the accompaniment of at least one well-trained shaman. Fortunately, I've quit all anti-anxiety and SSRI meds cold turkey about a year ago, so contraindication should no longer be a concern. However, I'm certain they caused some neuro and other physio changes that need remodeling and further monitoring. The causes for everyone's cancer in my family will probably never be known, I can only be vigilant in the dark and use what little I know as a sword & shield.

Of course, a shaman will ensure you have a safe experience. you also have peyote shamans in the US right? I think it was used by the american indians. Perhaps it would be easier for you to attend a peyote ceremony than fly to South America.

Instead of thinking about the cause, consider what is the purpose.

vorrange said:

Of course, a shaman will ensure you have a safe experience. you also have peyote shamans in the US right? I think it was used by the american indians. Perhaps it would be easier for you to attend a peyote ceremony than fly to South America.

Instead of thinking about the cause, consider what is the purpose.

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I imagine you've read Carlos Castanedos, perhaps some of Jane Robert's Seth Material editions? Always searching. Achieve one's purpose? Where will I find the strength? Not in a good place of late. Cheers

I think it's Castañedas, i have some ebook versions of his writings but haven't begun them yet. It is in my to-do list though.

The strength is within you Snappo. And ask your parents for strength and guidance. Talk to them. It will help you, even if you're not a spiritual person.
Meditation also helps you produce dopamine which allows you to become more confident and optimist about the future. To me, it brings me the serenity to deal with what my present lesson in life is.

Everyone is working something about them at any given point, even if they don't realize it.

This cannabis cures all cancer things is quite probably nonsense, its can certainly help with the symptoms and there is some scientific evidence it can kill cancer in a culture [so can vitamin c in massive doses but is useless/even dangerous when used on human cancer patients, clinical trials had to be shut down when testing vit c because the death rate rose significantly ]. Herbs have useful chemicals, but they also contain in some occasions various toxins. This is why pharmaceutical medicine arose, just taking the chemicals that we need. OK it may have been turned into a greed fuelled money making machine [the same can be said about all alt medicine scams] but they do have to have testing and trials to prove safety which herbal medicine does not. Most forms of alt medicine are just pseudo scientific trash which cause no physical harm on there own, but care should be taken with herbal medicine if you don't know exactly what your doing as it has real effect for good and bad.
I would recommend using google scholar to search for clinical academic trials , searching for anything on a regular search engine will return such a mixed amount of information it is hard to tell what is true or hippy drivel.

It definitely has its medical uses, we're only just starting to scratch the surface:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/07/health/charlotte-child-medical-marijuana/

iowcatalyst said:

This cannabis cures all cancer things is quite probably nonsense, its can certainly help with the symptoms and there is some scientific evidence it can kill cancer in a culture [so can vitamin c in massive doses but is useless/even dangerous when used on human cancer patients, clinical trials had to be shut down when testing vit c because the death rate rose significantly ]. Herbs have useful chemicals, but they also contain in some occasions various toxins. This is why pharmaceutical medicine arose, just taking the chemicals that we need. OK it may have been turned into a greed fuelled money making machine [the same can be said about all alt medicine scams] but they do have to have testing and trials to prove safety which herbal medicine does not. Most forms of alt medicine are just pseudo scientific trash which cause no physical harm on there own, but care should be taken with herbal medicine if you don't know exactly what your doing as it has real effect for good and bad.
I would recommend using google scholar to search for clinical academic trials , searching for anything on a regular search engine will return such a mixed amount of information it is hard to tell what is true or hippy drivel.

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I don't think it is nonsense since cannabis extracts interferes in the functioning of the immune system and has known effects on cancer cells and tumors. Another thing is saying that cannabis extract will guarantee curing the cancer then, yes, it is nonsense.
There is still much to be found out about the endocannabinoid system and how cannabis interferes with it and what effects it has on the body.

What do you consider "alt medicine trash"?

Testing and trials would be welcome but there is little money to be made in herbal medicine so there is little incentive to research.

And in my opinion science is not the purveyor of truth... far from it. How many things have been "discovered" regarding meditation and yoga and martial arts for example that the ancients are saying for thousands of years?
Science does not discover shit when it comes to herbal medicine and ancient techniques. They just find a way to prove using the mechanisms of proof that we trust.
And not proving something is not the same as disproving it.
How many things have now been proven by science after years of hearing them belittle people who swore by what was now proven? Wasn't Galileo jailed for saying that Copernicus was wrong?
History is filled with these examples, and Science as we know it grew with history and only has less than 500 years.
The so called alternative medicine has thousands of years.

If you add to this the narrow minded view of scientific knowledge and the public humiliation of anyone who dares to have a different theory (which is the opposite of scientific thinking), and the economic interests of the pharma and medical industry, you have a lot of reasons why there is not much proof regarding alternative medicine.

Most pharma drugs are concentrated active compounds that have been isolated from PLANTS or that have their base on a PLANT compound. We see companies trying to patent plants as a medicine like Nestle with Nigella Sativa and Monsanto with Cannabis.

At the same time they keep shoving down our throats the same propaganda: herbal medicine does not work, alternative medicines are a hoax, and constantly try to take the credibility away.

I say search google scholar, but search google as well. You just need to work harder to distinguish truth from lies.

vorrange said:

I have to disagree with you guys. Cannabis affects the liver, kidney and brain mostly.

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By "affects" do,you mean "damages"?
If so, what do you base that claim on?

zymos said:

By "affects" do,you mean "damages"?
If so, what do you base that claim on?

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zymos, i meant affects. BUT, it will damage if there is chronic abuse and if there are no counter measures to the abuse.

I refer this claim mostly to chinese medicine but i relate a lot to the reasoning behind it in my personal experience with cannabis, and i also correlate with everything i learned regarding the functioning of the endocannabinoid system and the side effects of cannabis abused reported by modern science and anedoctal evidence. It would be difficult to support my claims in a clear way without using a ton of sources from articles to books... i suggest you read and watch stuff about the endocannabinoid system and read the tons of scientific reviews( kind of a sum up of the medical research up to date) about cannabis medicinal properties, effects and side-effects available (just google "cannabis pdf" and start from there.) and also this book that i highly recommend "Face Reading in Chinese Medicine" (http://www.amazon.com/Face-Reading-Chinese-Medicine-2e/dp/0702043141) and then correlate the two.
I have also read a lot about substance abuse and what are the most common causes both internal and external so i would suggest you read about that as well.

Nowadays i have, for the most part, been able to develop a healthy way of using cannabis. I use it recreationally although i believe i would benefit from taking cbd concentrate since i have the symptoms that modern medicine has coined "predominately inatentive attention deficit desorder".

In chinese medicine, organs are related to emotions. Kidney is related to motivation, courage and fear. Liver is related to drive, anger and leadership. Brain i can't remember correctly.

When you abuse cannabis and don't exercise body and mind, and don't have a productive life... there is an increased risk that your brain wil become scattered, unfocused and slow, there is an increased risk of impatience and anger when you're not under the effect of cannabis, and there will likely be depression and amotivation.
I have experienced this first hand, and it fits perfectly in the chinese medicine view of how the organs and their imbalance relate to how you behave and react.

Feel free to get as technical as you want- I have a Biology degree, several years in the healthcare profession and a pretty vast knowledge of herbs. I also have much experience with many forms of "alternative medicine", though I generally prefer my medicine to be evidence based.

But anyway, I'm pretty credulous that vaporizing cannabis, even in excess, can literally damage the liver or kidneys. Put things out of balance, based on TCM principles, maybe, but damage?

As far as emotions and scattered thoughts- no argument there!

Well, what do you consider damage? In the beginning of my cannabis use i was fine, when it progressed into abuse i wasn't fine and i felt depleted in many ways. I consider that damage. It is not the same as saying irreversible damage. But chronic imbalance is like chronic stress and will lead to other problems that had the origin on that inbalance. My organs were no longer able to cope with the over stimulation caused by my cannabis excessive use.

It got a lot better when i started to take counter measures (namely exercise, meditation, better sleep and balanced my eating habits) and it improved continuosly as i took control of my use and learned to balance it into the other parts of my life.


Well, if you have a biology degree you'll understand the scientific publications even better than i do, i have an engineering degree. I am familiar with the mathematical models used to interpret data but no biology background.

I generally prefer my medicine to be evidence based but i don't base all my evidence on conventional science.
Tradicional Chinese Medicine is a good example of evidence out of the realm of conventional science and that has little support in scientific publications considering its potential.

Twinkies cause way worse damage that marijuana ever could.

I've posted this in another thread, but seems appropriate here.

Hahaa! What an awesome list! Thanks. I'm trying to put together a little sleep mix. Has anyone tried Valerian or Silene Undulata?

just found out that frankincense is not only edible but according to one study (below) it is psychoactive.

http://www.fasebj.org/content/22/8/3024

off wiki: "A 2008 study reported that frankincense smoke was a psychoactive drug that relieves depression and anxiety in mice.[20] The researchers found that the chemical compound incensole acetate[21] was responsible for the effects.[20]"

and for further reading: http://www.sciencedaily.com/release...encedaily+(ScienceDaily:+Latest+Science+News)

i've ordered some frankincense in the mail so i will let you know how it goes... but from an ethnobotanical standpoint this stuff is perfect and used for centuries. i guess the proof is in the pudding.

I've been searching about the terpenes in cannabis plants and where they are found in other plants. It is my opinion that the presence of terpenes in cannabis and many other aromatic plants like mint, lavender and so many others, as well as fruits and flowers, are part of the medicinal effect presented by them as well as their psychoactive effect.
For example, the terpenes contained in pepper nigrum essential oil aka black pepper essential oil are the ones contained in the cannabis plant minus a few minor ones.
Mango, that contains myrcene, one of the most common terpenes in cannabis, is known to have a potentiating effect to the high.

I don't know where Frankincense fits in this theory of mine but i'm guessing it will have an effect on the neurotransmitters and consequentely on the perceived effects of relieving anxiety.

sounds promising but if you buy it make sure it's not fake and make sure it's food grade.

https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=31750

Snake Plissken said:

I've posted this in another thread, but seems appropriate here.

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Snake P, thanks. I watched 30 minutes of that video and it is very impressive. I intend to watch it all later.
Maybe someday this medical research will seep into the US govt which is so anti MJ.

some evidence both anecdotal or otherwise saying this plant lobelia inflata can quell the urge for nicotine and even use in place of weed.

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=171571

in the old days you could even buy lobelia inflata cigarettes (no tobacco in them) and they were then called "asthma cigarettes" (google image them)