Zingbuddah
Vaporologist
So......you just have a screw loose?
Discontinued Thermovape Cera
- Thread starter SameOldTim
- Start date
I was in the same position, tried waiting patiently...gave up got the Cera and havent looked back. Ill still probably by a mini body if/when its ever released too...
As for the bigger T1 idea, i think they thought of that already but it wasnt possible to build a battery tube big enough for the 18650 battery with the machines they had so they gave up. Its a nice idea but I dont think something that will happen. The mini/lite is supposed to go back to the thumb switch style though (not latching) but still might be better for some. After a couple uses though the cera bottom switch isnt so annoying
PhotoRider
Diagnosed with level 11 G.A.S.
Typeo - sorry. The initial was 4.23v... So subtract 200mV from the difference. My notes were misread late at night.
The load numbers are correct. Sorry
So actually that makes the difference even worse. Thanks. Now the Persei drops .68, and the Cera 0.802 - now its 25% difference. Oh my.
No out there
do not know, but my battery never gets that hot. What does is the cart and it inserts into the base and heats it. The Persei metal never gets that hot so I am not sure I understand why having a ceramic base helps there?IMHO there are definitely benefits to the fact that the Cera is ceramic. I really like having a ceramic airpath all the way through, but then that only requires the part of the Cera above the cartridge's battery terminal to be ceramic. But then, if the rest of the Cera was metal, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to take the big rips off of my loose leaf through my friends' high end glass without a heavy duty oven mitt (obviously ceramic is a much better heat insulator than metal). But then, I suppose a heavily insulated thin metal body would do the trick (heck, with enough insulation maybe my friends wouldn't sting their hands taking said big rips), but that comes at the cost of design and manufacturing simplicity.
Everything is a traedoff...
but then I would be quite the happy camper if the Cera's impedance was lower- it would heat my batteries less and my cartridges more (and more importantly, faster!) Thus me considering going off the deep end with military/audio hi fi contact cleaners and enhancers (I figure with the low impedance and voltage numbers involved, it might just make a noticable difference). IMHO we should continue our Cera R&D on this forum, and I'm all
as long as Thermovape is doing the same.
Carry on Gentlemen!
Are you saying the base gets hot if it was metal. That doesn't happen on the Persei under the same condition.
Air path/ceramic... what does that have to do with the base? I don't undrstand. Does nothing there.
Unbelievable - now we are discussing the meaning of impedance verses resistance. Cap verses resistors. Oh wow - really. Impedance has a frequency component. Its not a "CAP" thing, its a frequency thing. It applies to inductors, wires and anything to describe the "resistance" based on Frequency - which can be 1uHZ, its just a number and there is a frequency component to everything electrical. Moreover - that battery is a HUGE EFFECTIVE CAP, in fact caps are used as batteries for backup on many devices. The is no issue using impedance to describe resistance in this situation. Splitting hairs.
I wish we could make forward progress here, but I am coming conclusion that may not possible
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darkrom
Great Scott!
So......you just have a screw loose?
LOL yeah basically. If no harm comes from 3/4 screws I'll just leave it like this. I just didn't want any issues. I like to stay on top of things and fix them BEFORE they become a real issue. In this case there was no issue and thermovape support set me right.
Typeo - sorry. The initial was 4.23v... So subtract 200mV from the difference. My notes were misread late at night.
The load numbers are correct. Sorry
So actually that makes the difference even worse. Thanks. Now the Persei drops .68, and the Cera 0.802 - now its 25% difference. Oh my.
No out there
do not know, but my battery never gets that hot. What does is the cart and it inserts into the base and heats it. The Persei metal never gets that hot so I am not sure I understand why having a ceramic base helps there?
Are you saying the base gets hot if it was metal. That doesn't happen on the Persei under the same condition.
Air path/ceramic... what does that have to do with the base? I don't undrstand. Does nothing there.
Unbelievable - now we are discussing the meaning of impedance verses resistance. Cap verses resistors. Oh wow - really. Impedance has a frequency component. Its not a "CAP" thing, its a frequency thing. It applies to inductors, wires and anything to describe the "resistance" based on Frequency - which can be 1uHZ, its just a number and there is a frequency component to everything electrical. Moreover - that battery is a HUGE EFFECTIVE CAP, in fact caps are used as batteries for backup on many devices. The is no issue using impedance to describe resistance in this situation. Splitting hairs.
I wish we could make forward progress here, but I am coming conclusion that may not possible
Oops... I think I meant resistance. My electronics knowledge is kind of nonexistent- it is resistance that creates heat right? you know what... pretend I didn't even mention impedance. I also know nothing about the Persi design. All I really know is that the way I like to use my Cera, Everything gets really hot- the metal more than the ceramic (i presume for the threading, certainly in the case of the switch) and maybe it is all coming from the core through the metal threading to the base then to everything else. I really shouldn't have even gotten into this conversation- not only is it over my head (I am just slowly learning little bits of electronics), But I don't think I even have all the context. I just kind of found myself responding to the whole metal vs ceramic thing.
I apologize for merely creating further consternation and confusion
At the end of the day, I just want to be able to touch my Cera in more than one specific place when the core is really hot, and for the core to heat up faster, for a number of reasons.
I think that means I want the resistance to be lower- but it looks like IDK WTF I am talking about in this sphere, so... yeah. Again, I apologize
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OF
Well-Known Member
Thanks for clearing it up, good to be on the same page. I'm not sure what to say about Persei, 'cept that's not quite what I see. I just ran it using the same battery and cart as before (now reading 4.17) it drops to 3.23 under load, more or less on par with Cera I think.
As to the part you can't believe, I did say it was a quibble (and it was addressed to another fellow) but since you bring it up.....
Yes, it's definitely not a DC thing. I taught this good stuff for too many years to let this pass.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_impedance
"Electrical impedance is the measure of the opposition that a circuit presents to a current when a voltage is applied. In quantitative terms, it is the complex ratio of the voltage to the current in an alternating current (AC) circuit. Impedance extends the concept of resistance to AC circuits, and possesses both magnitude and phase, unlike resistance, which has only magnitude. When a circuit is driven with direct current (DC), there is no distinction between impedance and resistance; the latter can be thought of as impedance with zero phase angle."
It even gets covered in the second semester, after "DC Theory". It's part of "AC Theory". Pure resistance is the special case where all the factors line up and we have zero phase angle. As said above it 'extends the concept of resistance', the basic concept is all that's needed and all we're equipped to measure really.
You can characterize it as splitting hairs if you wish, but I'll label it a quibble and insist it does make a difference and think I can show that.
Sorry you don't feel we're making progress, I think we are. I think we just decided 3 Volts is a more realistic voltage for a Cera cart as used, and that 20% change explains the 20% difference between 5 and 4 Amps. At least to me.
And Ohms law is still working. Along with Kirchhoff (Second Law) in fact..... And the universe continues running in greased grooves.
Oops... I think I meant resistance. My electronics knowledge is kind of nonexistent- it is resistance that creates heat right?
I apologize for merely creating further consternation and confusion
At the end of the day, I just want to be able to touch my Cera in more than one specific place when the core is really hot, and for the core to heat up faster, for a number of reasons.
Naw, as I said it's a quibble. Yes, it's resistance, not impedance that creates the heat (that's why the phase angle is so important in AC circuits, sometimes the impedances are huge but cancel each other out. The power formula, for instance, is no longer just Amps times Volts but now includes a 'time the cosine of Theda (the phase angle). Since this is zero at 90 degrees (lead or lag, doesn't matter) this means the power is zero (the cosine of 90 degrees). The currents and voltages can be huge but at that point there's no power involved.
For sure no need to apologize for anything I can see. By all means question?
Back on track, yes a few percent of the total power happens in the battery, it can be improved by lower current or improved battery, but most of the heat is probably conducted down. Lots of it comes through the top connection on the battery. When my Beta unit had the sliding switch I convinced myself it ran cooler in the battery....not scientific, but that's my impression. The tube itself conducts eventually well as well. I'm sure something better can be designed. The Delrin cover from T1 was an improvement in this direction I think and the power levels in T1 are about twice those in Cera. A big help, I think, would be to break that heat link, I believe being addressed in the new design. I've certainly heard a bunch of encouraging ideas being tossed around in the are.
If you feel up to playing around, I'm finding help with a few inches of this velcro stuff:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004AF9II6/ref=oh_details_o07_s00_i03?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Does a great job. I put a piece of it 'around the skinny part' and then slide it up or down (depending) to tighten it up on the tube. Up for PA use, down for PB switch use. 'Fuzzy side out' it gives a nice, cool place to hang onto that's really easy to remove.
OF
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Tom Funk
Well-Known Member
I recall that TET gave up on the T1 handle because they couldn't hone out the battery tube enough to fit an 18650 into the original handle. When they couldn't retain the modularity with the T1 with an 18650, they come up with new handle ideas. My memory may be incorrect though. In any case, it would have been easier to deliver the upsized T1 handle than redesign it completely, even if different machines were required.
Like you, I will probably not wait for the new handle. It could be a long wait considering how long the liquid cart has been under revision.
TF
Thanks for the free electronics lesson OF
,I really like your velcro idea as well- though I might see if I can find some wider stuff for not too much more. I will definitely do that once my Cera comes fully back on song (i.e. Monday when hopefully my new switch innards will show up).
I really need to get my crap together and build a power adapter, amongst many other things.
OF
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the free electronics lesson OF
I really like your velcro idea as well- though I might see if I can find some wider stuff for not too much more.
I really need to get my crap together and build a power adapter, amongst many other things.
You're welcome, Bro. Glad you're interested.
Thanks. The idea came as a result of a different experiment (I was using it to hold a PB switch for the PA I was making). Serendipity as they say. I noticed in extensive testing my fingers weren't melting yet. It turns out the PA scheme (not using the strap) was probably lowering the heat a bit, but the bare ceramic was quite uncomfortable when I touched it above the band.
A wider piece (or maybe just 2 or even 3 wraps one above the other) would no doubt improve on the idea. I was once told fabric stores (where domestic types go for 'notions') carry it by the foot. The two sided 'cargo strap' I used was very convenient, but I bet back to back strips of the regular style would work fine. The neat part is putting it on the skinny part then going up the taper to hold it in place. Like I said, I use 'the pencil pinch' technique with the PB and find sliding it down instead of up to work well.
I've made a series of PAs for Cera, 3 posted here I think, feel free to PM me when you get the urge to strike out, no sense plowing the same field again. While perhaps not my favorite (I'm strangely attache to the 'Fred Flintstone' one), this is the latest:
You can see the velcro strap with the PB switch. You put 6 to 12 VDC (yes, that means it plugs into the car....) in the cable and push the little switch. Here's what's under the hood:
[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/27/2fyu.jpg/]
There's a switching power supply in the tube to do the conversion. The spring on the outside contacts the screw plate (again, the Flintstone one did the same) eliminating the switch and strap in the Cera. The cart center pin is contacted by a spring loaded screw inside the Teflon spring guide inside the big spring. That's the standard end cap holding the lot in (you need to unscrew the Cera switch from it then thread it on. The washer gets pinched into the recess in the ring. The prototype is a bit too long, you'll notice a slight gap where the cap isn't all the way down against the ring? I had it all potted before I realized I'd goofed up there......next time.....
Anyway, PM me when you want to play.
Regards,
OF[/URL]
You're welcome, Bro. Glad you're interested.
Thanks. The idea came as a result of a different experiment (I was using it to hold a PB switch for the PA I was making). Serendipity as they say. I noticed in extensive testing my fingers weren't melting yet. It turns out the PA scheme (not using the strap) was probably lowering the heat a bit, but the bare ceramic was quite uncomfortable when I touched it above the band.
A wider piece (or maybe just 2 or even 3 wraps one above the other) would no doubt improve on the idea. I was once told fabric stores (where domestic types go for 'notions') carry it by the foot. The two sided 'cargo strap' I used was very convenient, but I bet back to back strips of the regular style would work fine. The neat part is putting it on the skinny part then going up the taper to hold it in place. Like I said, I use 'the pencil pinch' technique with the PB and find sliding it down instead of up to work well.
I've made a series of PAs for Cera, 3 posted here I think, feel free to PM me when you get the urge to strike out, no sense plowing the same field again. While perhaps not my favorite (I'm strangely attache to the 'Fred Flintstone' one), this is the latest:
You can see the velcro strap with the PB switch. You put 6 to 12 VDC (yes, that means it plugs into the car....) in the cable and push the little switch. Here's what's under the hood:
There's a switching power supply in the tube to do the conversion. The spring on the outside contacts the screw plate (again, the Flintstone one did the same) eliminating the switch and strap in the Cera. The cart center pin is contacted by a spring loaded screw inside the Teflon spring guide inside the big spring. That's the standard end cap holding the lot in (you need to unscrew the Cera switch from it then thread it on. The washer gets pinched into the recess in the ring. The prototype is a bit too long, you'll notice a slight gap where the cap isn't all the way down against the ring? I had it all potted before I realized I'd goofed up there......next time.....
Anyway, PM me when you want to play.
Regards,
OF
Thanks for always being SUPER helpful
PhotoRider
Diagnosed with level 11 G.A.S.
Yes, little forward progress in my opinion. The issue at hand is still not resolved officially.
The issue defined once again.
I presented my setup, you stated I was outside the operating spec. I characterization my equipment and found it is operating the same as on the Cera base. I presented my data to show it was. You presented data off yours which differers. I have no idea the production version of yours only mine. Glad yours is what you thought and my is what I say.
So is my deflective or not. If not then I am operating within the design spec.
Instead we spin off in eddies discussing the meaning of terms, which I know what they mean, you know what they mean, I know you know and you know I know. You 100% understand my points and I understand yours. Stating oh, I am just explaining to the membership - great, but still no direct answer. You still have not answered that question with overwhelming data in front of you, instead we digress.
You asked me to change behavior - respectfully ask you to stop being passive aggressive, please and show some respect.
No answer is an answer... That in itself is my answer, I consider that a passive aggressive answer, avoidance and diversions.
My equipment is with in spec and I am operating with spec. End of subject. Agree or disagree. My Cera drives my Cart exactly like I do with the lab supply. If that isn't so then my Cera is defective, but clearly it isn't.
I need to take the advice of several members... Expect this on a forum. Egos, emotions, avoidance etc. Just not used to such behavior in my experience in person and I am sure over a beer (if I drank) we would be great friends
I need to move on and accept the situation. The milestone will never be made
Someone gave me this shot and its perfect for such situations. This is the path out of this rat hole
The issue defined once again.
I presented my setup, you stated I was outside the operating spec. I characterization my equipment and found it is operating the same as on the Cera base. I presented my data to show it was. You presented data off yours which differers. I have no idea the production version of yours only mine. Glad yours is what you thought and my is what I say.
So is my deflective or not. If not then I am operating within the design spec.
Instead we spin off in eddies discussing the meaning of terms, which I know what they mean, you know what they mean, I know you know and you know I know. You 100% understand my points and I understand yours. Stating oh, I am just explaining to the membership - great, but still no direct answer. You still have not answered that question with overwhelming data in front of you, instead we digress.
You asked me to change behavior - respectfully ask you to stop being passive aggressive, please and show some respect.
No answer is an answer... That in itself is my answer, I consider that a passive aggressive answer, avoidance and diversions.
My equipment is with in spec and I am operating with spec. End of subject. Agree or disagree. My Cera drives my Cart exactly like I do with the lab supply. If that isn't so then my Cera is defective, but clearly it isn't.
I need to take the advice of several members... Expect this on a forum. Egos, emotions, avoidance etc. Just not used to such behavior in my experience in person and I am sure over a beer (if I drank) we would be great friends
I need to move on and accept the situation. The milestone will never be made
Someone gave me this shot and its perfect for such situations. This is the path out of this rat hole
OF
Well-Known Member
Please excuse me if I again don't rise to the 'passive aggressive' stuff. It's not personal, no need to attack. I'm here to discuss Volts and Amps and stuff, take it for what you will.
I do not agree you're operating as it normally is in Cera. By your own numbers (.802 loss you said?) that should be 2.9 Volts on the core (3.7 minus .8) not 3.6 Volts. 3.6 Volts is much higher than normal, it's only .1 below the source, not realistic for the system. 3.6 Volts would indicate you indeed did have a battery at 4.4 Volts, right? 3.6 plus .8 is 4.4. What I think you just said 4.4 a typo? Basically impossible in the Cera. That's the only way to have .8 Volts of loss and still have 3.6 left.....you need to start with 4.4 to do that. Kirchhoff says so, not me (well he said it first anyway). This means normally current is 4 Amps or so (2.9/.7 using your Cera's numbers). I see no reason to doubt your Cera, it's close enough to mine (which also shows about .8 drop as I said, I don't see the difference you mention above).
I think 3.6 Volts is too high, it should be more like 3.0 at the pins. Just like it is in Cera. 3.6 is over driving it relative to being in a normal Cera under normal conditions.
On average Ceras run about 4 Amps I think. Some a little more than others, some less. On average the rig you described runs about 5. That's 20% more current, 50% more power than Cera. A direct result of using 20% more voltage of course. I thought you should rethink that, I still do, but it remains your call.
I'd hope that's clear, but by all means do what you think is best.
Good luck.
OF
@PhotoRider and @OF: I will delete further responses from either of you on this topic. Take it to PMs if you must.
Czechyourhead
Well-Known Member
Took Cera to a show the last 3 nights....performed flawlessly. Received a few curious stares, and turned a few folks on. Who says this isn't a "show piece"? Could have really used a FC shirt to help spread the word...hoarse from yelling it to friends over the music. Hazards of having cool toys I guess...folks assume you know something about them...Luckily I can send them this direction.
Tom Funk
Well-Known Member
I don't know if TET is open today but My Cera should be on its way today or tomorrow
TET is not open today. They emailed me on Friday (Saturday here) saying that they received my T1 core that afternoon and would be sending it back on Tuesday after the holiday weekend. I only sent it the week before from Australia and it only cost $15 to send it.
The quick and cheep post and service has got me feeling more confident in purchasing a Cera.
TF
Soflo
Only birdshit and fools
so I decided I needed to build a new steampunk body for my cera cart, because the cera body is just unreliable. so here she is with homemade switch that can latch if needed.
there is an insulator under the bottom cap to keep it seperated from the body so the switch works.
and here is a side by side comparison
there is an insulator under the bottom cap to keep it seperated from the body so the switch works.
and here is a side by side comparison
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Zingbuddah
Vaporologist
Any tips for soldering the nut to the brass portion? I've tried knocking the chrome off the nuts and silver solder with no luck. Perhaps its my skill level :/
OF
Well-Known Member
Soft solder is much easier and has never given me trouble.
Hard solder calls for careful alignment with no movement while cooling (wiring in place often a good call) lots of flux (higher temps raise oxides about as fast as you can strip them away) and LOTS of heat. The entire work area needs to be at temperature (or above) at once or a fracture will most likely happen.
Pretinning usually helps a far bit on tough cases. Lots of flux makes reflow soldering possible here.
Good luck.
OF
so I decided I needed to build a new steampunk body for my cera cart, because the cera body is just unreliable. so here she is with homemade switch that can latch if needed.
there is an insulator under the bottom cap to keep it seperated from the body so the switch works.
and here is a side by side comparison
Very cool... Now a possibly stupid question: where are the air inlet holes (for air going into the core)?
And what do you find unreliable about the Cera body? (mostly curious cause my switch is not working ATM).
Quetzalcoatl
DEADY GUERRERO/DIRT COBAIN/GEORGE KUSH
FDA approval is the focus for the ceramic, Noah's video was more fun than a core feature imho