Have we been using cannabis wrong?

I ask this because I notice that since I changed my routine of thick vapor or smoke with my tools and joints(if I have to when not home) to using very little and just adding more in increments to keep the flavor as I slowly raise the temperature to absorb as much as possible or toking on a joint VERY LIGHTLY and inhaling fresh air deeply after the light puff that the high I get lasts long and has no ceiling meaning I can go on and on until I'm too high BUT I don't experience any negative effects but that can be because I eat before and sometimes during a session. I think the reason why tolerance and usage goes up which contributes to a ceiling high, is because we are so use to inhaling thick vapor that our body treats it as something that is an invasion, for the most part and doesn't utilize most of it and the only time we get that bang upside your head, psychadelic high is during our first session of the day when the body is relaxed and not flooded all at once with smoke or vapor or using something different then we are used to but after that we can only get so high due to thick vapor causing a fight or flight reaction which means we will never get to experience the ultra psychadelic high that cannabis can give when you are relaxed and taking in a lot of oxygen to help it metabolize the concentrated cannabinoids.

I think this is why eating cannabis can get you into that ultra strong high which is because it is digested much slower and our bodies are relaxed during the process, we are able to turn on our parasympathetic nerves which is our build and repair part of the nervous system and it can cause you to become real healthy when you are able to activate it and the more you activate it the deeper you relax and the deeper you can feel effects from things and for longer while the sympathetic(fight or flight) nervous system is the opposite whereas it can be powerful but it doesn't last as long and it gives you energy to move quick but the more you activate it the more you get a burnt out effect after you do what caused the adrenaline release which is probably why when you inhale a strong, concentrated vapor/smoke you get a fast acting, strong high followed by a lasting burnt out feeling.

Vaporizers are the PERFECT tool to achieve this "infinite high" because you can adjust the heat to release only certain substances slowly and can use very little which means most of the vapor if not all of it will be absorbed but you will be able to take in a lot of oxygen to help the body metabolize the concentrated vapor(remember the bigger the cloud is the more air is mxing with it and the smaller it is the more concentrated it is IF you have a vaporizer with accurate temperature control and not using high heat in your first puff and using a lot of herb or concentrates). The only thing is most people are so used to the fast hitting, thick vapor and seeing clouds and not being patient that they won't get a chance to experience this other side of cannabis.

Anyway, I was just thinking about this after watching youtube videos and noticing people loved seeing the clouds and thick bong smoke or big joints and thought to myself we have barely experienced what cannabis can do and we most likely won't because we are stuck on doing things the old way and need that fast rush that thick smoke/vapor gives you. If my post confused you please forgive me, I just had to get this off my mind with other people who love herb and vaporizers like I do.

I think you'll find that several of us have been vapourizing the way you describe for a long time. I've tried cloud-chasing and I prefer low temperature wispy vapour. I do it for the taste and the control, as well as the economy.

I haven't heard anyone say they do the method I'm talking about. What I do is use around .002-.003 of herb set the temperature to around 165f and raise the temperature in increments of 10 degrees on every inhale and when the flavor goes out I add a little more herb weighing the same and continue this process until I get to 410f -430f depending on how I feel. I then start the process over once I get to the 410f-430f temperatures with fresh herb and noticed you can go higher and higher which I couldn't do when smoking or having thick vapor. Maybe others do it but I haven't heard it or read it before.

You can literally have a day of being on another plane off of very little herb doing this method. Just make sure you eat because I don't know what would happen if someone did this and ate very little food for the day. They probably will have a real bad trip or being that it isn't absorbed so fast all at once they will know when to stop and go eat before it gets to that point.

pakalolo said:

I think you'll find that several of us have been vapourizing the way you describe for a long time. I've tried cloud-chasing and I prefer low temperature wispy vapour. I do it for the taste and the control, as well as the economy.

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Once again Pak has nailed it. I think you can divide the club into two general groups. The Cloud Chasers aren't in it for economy or even the fine points IMO, just vast quantities. As I guess is their 'rights'? I think these guys tend to mostly be recreational users, FWIW.

The Medical guys, OTOH, are often driven by other issues, including accurate dosage control and compromised health forcing less extreme hits. Often cost of the drug enters into it as well here, not that the Big Cloud guys aren't worried about cost, just not to the same extent usually? They tend to the wimpy end of things, often seeking fine control. A 'quality over quantity' deal at some levels.

Not that there aren't frugal Recreational users, nor Medical guys with huge appetites of course but rather I don't think they're the norm.

Some try to ride the fence, spending time in 'both camps'. I tend to think this doesn't work out at all well for tolerance reasons?

Same as there's a fellow around here famous for seven gram blunts, and guys that feed multiple grams of oil to their nails in a single day, we also have our PD fans and similar guys who do amazing things with a single gram. We need a big old tent.....and then some if we want everyone in out of the rain. And I think we do.

OF

I also noticed something like this, not really about thick vapor more about the amount(of hits), with little, 1 hit every 15-30 minutes, I can get a better high, similar to what you describe, it does take a bit longer to start though, it has to build up slowly.

but I'm just so easily tempted into taking more since I have a bong, also it doesn't work as well with every strain, it works very well with one of my favorites, nepal hash, wich I usually have(I often have 1 kind of hash and 1 kind of weed, sometimes multiple strains of weed), but with a lot else it doesn't work like that

(some months back 10 euros worth of nepal, a little over a gram, would last me a month, maroc on the other hand the same amount only a week, but that was before I got my vvps and bong, and before the summer)

luchiano...do you go back down to 165 every time you add herb or only after you have reached 410-430. Also, I love your content, but have a hard time getting it the first or even second time due to a lack of punctuation.

I think you are on to something, as it is usually my most potent strains that 'top off' for me. I usually need to either save these for the end of the night after I have used my lesser strains, or wait a long time between uses, because the follow up sessions with these strong strains are not satisfactory. I would love to know a method, like this one, that helps me use my strong strains all day or night long!

stickstones said:

luchiano...do you go back down to 165 every time you add herb or only after you have reached 410-430. Also, I love your content, but have a hard time getting it the first or even second time due to a lack of punctuation.

I think you are on to something, as it is usually my most potent strains that 'top off' for me. I usually need to either save these for the end of the night after I have used my lesser strains, or wait a long time between uses, because the follow up sessions with these strong strains are not satisfactory. I would love to know a method, like this one, that helps me use my strong strains all day or night long!

Click to expand...

My bad, I guess I need to slow down my thought as I'm typing. I stop the first session after I have reached the 410-430 mark, then I start the process over again with some fresh herb and go back down to 165f. I add herb as the temperature goes up to keep the flavor alive and give a more concentrated cannabinoid hit once I hit the 385f mark.

@luchiano - thanks for starting this discussion.

i normally put about .125g in the vial for a session. that just fills the 1 3/8" deep vial with no packing. so your comments have got me trying about 1/3 that amount, again just lightly dropped into the vial, no packing.

long and slow inhales are getting much denser vapor, from the same stash. it's always satisfying to blow out a big cloud, but these days, i am even more satisfied by looking into the draw tube and seeing dense vapor -- that is, can't see the red glow of the oven tube -- even if the exhale is thinner.

seems counter intuitive that less is more, but it's hard to deny the facts (i.e. not a neocon/republican - i can do arithmetic).

and the high is higher. long and slow.

but now you've got me thinking about the user input again. i think i need to add that third button back into the user control -- a button click will step forward along the temperature profile, a click and hold and release will step back. that way, the user doesn't increase the temp which gets saved as the new setpoint.

and i will also have to provide a way to select from several temperature profiles.

and define profiles - NFC and a cell phone app, perhaps.

Hippie Dickie said:

but now you've got me thinking about the user input again. i think i need to add that third button back into the user control -- a button click will step forward along the temperature profile, a click and hold and release will step back. that way, the user doesn't increase the temp which gets saved as the new setpoint.

and i will also have to provide a way to select from several temperature profiles.

and define profiles - NFC and a cell phone app, perhaps.

Click to expand...

I like that idea. It will help speed up the vaporizing session a little more.

I don't know, OF... I bounce between the two depending on the need... if my other medications are working well (opiates/rx nsaids/lidocaine) I can get away with small hits whenever needed, but sometimes I'll get real bad nausea or pain out of nowhere and I'm pulling the glass out as soon as I can. The clouds are just a result of my need to get as much as possible.

stickstones said:

luchiano...do you go back down to 165 every time you add herb or only after you have reached 410-430. Also, I love your content, but have a hard time getting it the first or even second time due to a lack of punctuation.

I think you are on to something, as it is usually my most potent strains that 'top off' for me. I usually need to either save these for the end of the night after I have used my lesser strains, or wait a long time between uses, because the follow up sessions with these strong strains are not satisfactory. I would love to know a method, like this one, that helps me use my strong strains all day or night long!

Click to expand...

What he means is he adds a certain amount of material starting at the lower and then goes up. Once he's done with it, he will add the same amount of FRESH material into the bowl, and start at the lower temp again. Rinse and repeat.

luchiano said:

I like that idea. It will help speed up the vaporizing session a little more.

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Well the people eagerly awaiting the commercial release of the Bud Toaster don't. They hate you now.

luchiano said:

I haven't heard anyone say they do the method I'm talking about. What I do is use around .002-.003 of herb set the temperature to around 165f and raise the temperature in increments of 10 degrees on every inhale and when the flavor goes out I add a little more herb weighing the same and continue this process until I get to 410f -430f depending on how I feel. I then start the process over once I get to the 410f-430f temperatures with fresh herb and noticed you can go higher and higher which I couldn't do when smoking or having thick vapor. Maybe others do it but I haven't heard it or read it before.

You can literally have a day of being on another plane off of very little herb doing this method. Just make sure you eat because I don't know what would happen if someone did this and ate very little food for the day. They probably will have a real bad trip or being that it isn't absorbed so fast all at once they will know when to stop and go eat before it gets to that point.

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I'll use the stickstones defense and claim that I missed the difference from what I and others do and what you do because of your writing style. Yes, I'm sure that's it.

I have (rarely) added something to a partly vaporized load, but when I have I've used kief. I've never given serious thought to adding more of the same because I assumed that the flavour would be overwhelmed by the partially vaped load.

OF said:

Once again Pak has nailed it. I think you can divide the club into two general groups. The Cloud Chasers aren't in it for economy or even the fine points IMO, just vast quantities. As I guess is their 'rights'? I think these guys tend to mostly be recreational users, FWIW.

The Medical guys, OTOH, are often driven by other issues, including accurate dosage control and compromised health forcing less extreme hits. Often cost of the drug enters into it as well here, not that the Big Cloud guys aren't worried about cost, just not to the same extent usually? They tend to the wimpy end of things, often seeking fine control. A 'quality over quantity' deal at some levels.

Not that there aren't frugal Recreational users, nor Medical guys with huge appetites of course but rather I don't think they're the norm.

Some try to ride the fence, spending time in 'both camps'. I tend to think this doesn't work out at all well for tolerance reasons?

Same as there's a fellow around here famous for seven gram blunts, and guys that feed multiple grams of oil to their nails in a single day, we also have our PD fans and similar guys who do amazing things with a single gram. We need a big old tent.....and then some if we want everyone in out of the rain. And I think we do.

OF

Click to expand...

I think I ride the fence. I also am a medical user who pretends like there is any possible way to continue using recreational. I find no matter how hard I try it is pretty much impossible to get recreational effects these days, even after a few day break and adding kief + using more that first time back. At some point maybe people in both camps just instinctively become medical users. I'm sure if I used it once a week it would FEEL more recreational, but then that 6 day dry period would be hellish. I think it is natural for someone like me looking for both ends of the spectrum to favor the medical needs unless they are QUITE minor medical needs. For me it is a no brianer that the effects are deminished, but I can function 100% while using cannabis to improve the quality of life on a daily basis. If that means no laughing my ass off at cartoons stuffing my face with pizza, so be it, medical will be more important, as fun as that scenario sounds.

I often think about trying to use smaller amounts. I think that if I can manage the will power I'm going to start using less and less in my cloud, maybe just jump straight to just barely covering the bottom. Not even vaping less sessions per day, just forcing less per use. I don't know why it is so hard to force myself to do this, I'm sure I'd still get enough medical relief each session other than "emergencies" so I am going to try to start that this week and see what happens. Monday is the girlfriends Bday and I'm the DD and don't drink...so I may feel like the wrong fuckin time to cut back haha. Maybe start on tuesday if I can't make any excuses then. It'll be quite interesting to see what happens honestly.

I suppose I really don't even consider the cost of cannabis anymore to be perfectly honest. I just view it as another cost of living like gasoline. I don't even get upset when I get raped at the gas pump anymore, and when I need cannabis I just get it. I always make sure to buy an oz at a time (decrim up to an OZ here) and just better to have a surplus than be sorry. It keeps the cost down, relatively speaking, but some of you would be shocked how expensive it can be).

Personally I've always noticed larger clouds to mean a more noticeable effect. I know it is not a mental thing either, because if anything I'd feel the lower temp light cloud (more trippy in your head effects) much more pronounced than the higher temp big cloud hits. It may have something to do with the more dense amounts of chemicals in the thick hits being somehow easier to absorb, IDK at all, but I do know the bigger the clouds the stronger the effects 100% of the time for me personally. I do keep playing with low temp mini clouds to keep trying to prove myself wrong, it just hasn't happened yet!

i feel you ... i find it really hard to not fill the vial. lately i just tell my self i can always do another session if it was too little herb.

funny thing just occurred to me the other day, when i realized i don't have any (much) lower back pain -- i had been attributing it to stretching and exercising, but really, i make a point to be medicated, and damn, it works!

I've been lurking here for a while and just wanted to add my 2 cents.

Luchiano, I used to utilize a similar low-dose method; just .025 g (yes, I would weigh out 25 mg each session) of herb in a vape at a low temperature would get me set for many hours, seemingly much more so than a (pleasantly sting inducing) cloud.

I was always very impressed with the efficacy of this method and very few people embrace it. I maintain that this is the most efficient (and sometimes the most powerful) way to indulge.

Believe it or not, I moved on to using more because using less was in fact TOO effective; the effects are almost entirely sativa, and with such an efficient means of reaching another plane it can rapidly turn the world into foreign territory.

Three more downsides to this method (besides being too efficient) are:

1.) Moderate Time and energy consumption involved in weighing (bypassed with a good eye)
2.) It makes it almost impossible to use socially since everyone else is looking for a fat rip (and can't believe three calyxes will do the trick).
3.) Does NOT work with schwag herb; this is due, i believe, to issues of thermal conductivity of resiny calyxes vs. dry matter, not necessarily to total concentration of actives; a resiny calyx will easily conduct heat to all of its actives (which are on the outside primarily anyway), as opposed to dryer material, whose actives release slowly and thus give an even lower blood concentration of actives.

I find it's possible to register lung feel and a decent scent / taste for 1 hit off of 25 mg of good-enough herb. Thinner hits tend not to mess up your sense of smell, too, which means that this one hit might be tastier than what you perceive after cloud-after-cloud of nose and sinus wrecking (though quite satisfying) vape rips.

One more note, people coming to herb for the first time are often quite receptive to this method as they have no pre-existing biases from smoking to tell them that a burning feeling is necessary to get high. in fact, first timers are quite willing to believe that pain in your lungs is something to be avoided rather than sought

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Edit: I also wanted to agree and elaborate on the point regarding eating well. This mode suppresses hunger for me and so it's easy to not eat enough and thus to have a sub-normal experience. Feels like a shift in metabolism.

I've been combustion free for two and a half years and now use about 1g a week down from 5g minimum as a smoker.
I have an Extreme Q and either have 3 bags with roughly .04g each over the night or load .15 max in an elbow and vape bong it over the night - starting at 190 and topping out at 230 before bed.
I had .13g of a very potent King Kush in the vape last night and didn't get over 215 before bed so tonight I blew a bag with what was left at 230 and am nicely toasted.
I didn't set out to lower my use so much but am really happy with the way my lowered tolerance and greater understanding of the effects and experimenting with temperature have led to such low amounts being needed.

my theory has always been that saturated or even slightly under-saturated vapor mixtures are more effective than over-saturated due to my suspicions of how the lungs absorb vapor.

for reference essential oil vapor is similar to water vapor. once you breach saturation specific humidity you begin to form visible vapor condensate. i believe these droplets readily reach sizes too great to be absorbed into the bloodstream, and instead only incorporate themselves into the mucous layer.

i also believe that once the ssh has been breached, the amount of oils in the vapor state decreases. it is a theory but i think of the state in this way because of the stickyness of the molecules, as well as its high boiling point.

There is certainly s difference in feeling achieve...

when i smoke buds and gain tolerance, there gets a point hardly any bud in a reasonable amount gets me any feelings, then i take one single .1-.2 trench in the mflb and BAM i got this very euphoric high. and then after i grow tolerance to that and mlfb sessions starting going 30+ minutes, i take ONE bowl and BAM... its more of a baseline and high difference?

Hippie Dickie said:

seems counter intuitive that less is more, but it's hard to deny the facts (i.e. not a neocon/republican - i can do arithmetic).

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It's probably best not to make stupid comments like this. I'm a conservative/libertarian and have a bachelors and law degree. And, I can do math (it was required for my bachelors, which was in a science). Let's keep it civil forgo the banal attempts to insult. Thanks.

I'm glad I came across this thread; I've been thinking about reducing consumption. I've noticed that when I take one or two draws from my V-Tower and wait about 5-10 minutes before more, I actually get more of the effect I'm looking for because I realize that I don't need more after those first couple hits.

HyDroid said:

Luchiano, I used to utilize a similar low-dose method; just .025 g (yes, I would weigh out 25 mg each session) of herb in a vape at a low temperature would get me set for many hours, seemingly much more so than a (pleasantly sting inducing) cloud.

Click to expand...

Since I haven't been weighing things out for the last 2 years, I was curious to see where my usage had drifted to.

After loading a whip with my 'average amount', I broke out the scale: 75 mg

This amount will give me one of the following experiences:

a.) 1-2 phat rips on mid-high heat
b.) 2-4 good hits of escalating temperature and strength but diminishing flavor
c.) 3-5 hits on low temperature with near constant flavor

Which is significantly more versatile than my experience with 25 mg bowls. This is a good sweet spot for diversity in experience, economy, and tolerance: it's tuned for no T-breaks.

But things can be very different if T-breaks are involved...

pakalolo said:

I think you'll find that several of us have been vapourizing the way you describe for a long time. I've tried cloud-chasing and I prefer low temperature wispy vapour. I do it for the taste and the control, as well as the economy.

Click to expand...

I think I'm coming to prefer the same. You have the same tools I do; what is your preferred method with the Q while using the whip (I have a V-Tower): (1) elbow pack. or (2) cyclone bowl? And, do you have a set technique (i.e., temperature, draw speed, etc.)?

Liberty said:

I think I'm coming to prefer the same. You have the same tools I do; what is your preferred method with the Q while using the whip (I have a V-Tower): (1) elbow pack. or (2) cyclone bowl? And, do you have a set technique (i.e., temperature, draw speed, etc.)?

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I use the whip with the cyclone bowl, pre-heated for 10 or more minutes at 240°C then reduced to 160 or 170°C, loaded about halfway to the black band. I try to draw slowly enough not to clog the elbow screen but eventually it always gets clogged. I usually (but not always) stir and unclog the elbow after every 5-6 hits, and sometimes dump and crumble. This gives visible thin but tasty vapour with sativa-like effects. When vapour production slows down I step it up 10°C at a time but I hardly ever go above 190°C, which is where you must venture if you want more indica-like effects. The ABV is medium to dark brown.

pakalolo said:

I use the whip with the cyclone bowl, pre-heated for 10 or more minutes at 240°C then reduced to 160 or 170°C, loaded about halfway to the black band. I try to draw slowly enough not to clog the elbow screen but eventually it always gets clogged. I usually (but not always) stir and unclog the elbow after every 5-6 hits, and sometimes dump and crumble. This gives visible thin but tasty vapour with sativa-like effects. When vapour production slows down I step it up 10°C at a time but I hardly ever go above 190°C, which is where you must venture if you want more indica-like effects. The ABV is medium to dark brown.

Click to expand...

When you do this, do you leave the cyclone bowl on the unit in between draws? I tried to stop doing this because I thought leaving my material in the cyclone bowl would degrade its potency through over exposure to the heat in the bowl. As a result, I switched to elbow packing because I can remove the whip in between draws thereby taking my material away from unnecessary heat exposure.

Thanks for the great tips.

Liberty said:

When you do this, do you leave the cyclone bowl on the unit in between draws? I tried to stop doing this because I thought leaving my material in the cyclone bowl would degrade its potency through over exposure to the heat in the bowl. As a result, I switched to elbow packing because I can remove the whip in between draws thereby taking my material away from unnecessary heat exposure.

Thanks for the great tips.

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No, because I don't think the loss (if any) is significant. After a whip hit you can see a thin stream of vapour coming from the mouthpiece, but this is from vapour that hasn't been cleared from the whip, not from continued heating. If you lift the cyclone bowl or elbow and clear, the wisp disappears.

pakalolo said:

No, because I don't think the loss (if any) is significant. After a whip hit you can see a thin stream of vapour coming from the mouthpiece, but this is from vapour that hasn't been cleared from the whip, not from continued heating. If you lift the cyclone bowl or elbow and clear, the wisp disappears.

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Nice. Thank you so much.