Discontinued VapeXhale Cloud

zmurder

Well-Known Member
good point- Clear Dome was making such things for the PD ages ago, so it would seem that the only major difference is interfacing with the vape through a GonG joint rather than the actual stem? Is that patentable? And of course Ricks making bubblers for the AZ, but that' a more recent affair. There's also stuff for the V-tower on ALT that's very like a Hydratube.

Clear Dome's upright bubbler for the PD from years ago is exactly what I was thinking of. Regardless of whether VXL are easy to work with or not, it's kinda crazy that Rick and others making these for logs would have to get VXL's approval now, let alone give them a share of their profits.

I'm still in line but I'm sure the Cloud is going to be great. While I'm against IP in principle, I get why the VXL peeps would want to protect all their hard work in developing the Cloud.....but I just don't get how this applies to the HTs, since that idea seems to have already been out there.
 

stonemonkey55

Chief Vapor Officer
Manufacturer
I know a bit about IP so can put in a little bit of info, FWIW.

One of the first things the patent office looks for is NOVELTY. They try to scan the "prior art", which means they scan the industry and look for other work that resembles the patent application. If they find your invention from someone else, they will deny your application.

The FIRST TO INVENT is the true inventor. This may not necessarily be the FIRST TO PATENT. This is important. While a patent is presumed valid by the courts, sometimes they are overturned because examiners aren't perfect and may miss prior art. If someone else came up with your idea first, your patent can be invalidated.

The patent office also looks for a lack of obviousness. Simple modifications to an existing invention, which fail to create a novel improvement, or create improvements that would be obvious to others in the field, should not be sufficient for a new patent.

It takes a whole lot of time, energy, and money to develop new IP. On top of it, these guys have built their own manufacturing plant around their invention so it's USA made. I'm still on the waiting list myself, but it seems everyone loves the Cloud. I think we should all support any valid IP they have developed in the process...

... and may they return a big profit for their efforts, the American way.

We are not looking to go after anybody, as GreyArea mentioned, it takes a lot of time, energy, and effort to not only develop IP, but to go after someone as well. We simply ask that if folks want to make HydraTubes, they contact us and we work together. We're not asking anyone to give us money, charge licensing fees, etc etc.

Personally I think it kinda sucks and is a disappointing move from a grassroots company if they clamp down on this. Accepting that VX perhaps were one of the first companies to identify this method, I think it was inevitable that this kind of waterpipe design was also coming about elsewhere in the vaporizer market. This kind of in line diffusion isn't a stroke of genius- it's obvious for vaporizers. To even try and restrict its use is not a vaporist friendly move IMHO as so many models of vape can use this design.

I had to think long and hard as to how or if I should even answer a statement like this. I know all the people on this forum have a certain perception of the VapeXhale team being a homegrown product of Fuck Combustion. We like to do the right thing, we like to give the customer every benefit of the doubt when it comes to returns and exchanges, BUT also understand, this is how we FEED our families.

You're basically telling us that we are the bad guys for wanting to protect what we created. That after spending well into the mid 6 figures to develop what we believe to be the pinnacle of vaporization technology, we should not be protective of our intellectual property. Not only that, you basically said that this design was so obvious that someone was bound to come up with it. It has been 15 years since I started vaping and I have yet to see another vaporizer company come out with anything remotely similar to the Cloud.

If you guys think we are some greedy, rich folk, you guys need to think again. We poured our blood, sweat, tears, and money into this project and put up with countless armchair quarterbacks about how we should run our business. Many of us are working without a paycheck, some for close to 12 months now. To say we are the "bad guys" for wanting to defend our intellectual property is a slap in the face to us.

FWIW, ClearDomes, or the bubblers made for the Aromazap do not apply to our patent. Neither does the Aqua Vape. These do not have GonG connections, or some of them use tubing, so neither of those apply.

Again - there may have been some things that looked similar to what we have done, but no one has put it together in the manner that we have. We felt our idea was novel, we had some IP researchers do their due diligence, and found that no one had patented anything like this before. If we are looked at as the "evil corporation" just because we did what any careful business person would do, then that just plain sucks for us. For a company that is 6 figures in the red to be the "evil corporation" - then I must have a messed up view of how this world works.

If this is how you fed your family, would you still feel the same way? Or would you just let three years of hard work go to whoever wanted to make money off of your idea?
 

Slightly Medicated

(SliM) Iron Lungs
Hey SM very well said. I did not say much about the subject... mostly because it is a complicated one. I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. Not because you have gotten a patent... mostly because unfortunately that is the world we live in. I think you are incredibly smart for wanting to apply for a patent. I don't think poeple realize the amount of capital the goes in to starting up a new buisness. An idea might be obvious but the execution can take so much planning and capitol that is can be extremely hard to pull off. There is nothing worse then putting in all the leg work and then having another company come along and rip off your work.

I could tell by the way you are requesting people contact you, that you are more concerned with making sure things are done right... not making extra profit. I think allot of poeple who have anger towards you, unfortunately have misplaced anger. If anything they should be disgusted with the patent process in general. The whole thing is one giant kludge. You are just smart enough to know that you need to work withing the system if you want to survive in the long run. I commend you for that.

Thanks for busting your ass to create this product. It has seriously been a pleasure to medicate with the cloud. I know my quality of life has improved because of it. :bowdown:

Could I come off like any more of a fanboy??? Well I guess I am...
 

stonemonkey55

Chief Vapor Officer
Manufacturer
Hey SM very well said. I did not say much about the subject... mostly because it is a complicated one. I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. Not because you have gotten a patent... mostly because unfortunately that is the world we live in. I think you are incredibly smart for wanting to apply for a patent. I don't think poeple realize the amount of capital the goes in to starting up a new buisness. An idea might be obvious but the execution can take so much planning and capitol that is can be extremely hard to pull off. There is nothing worse then putting in all the leg work and then having another company come along and rip off your work.

I could tell by the way you are requesting people contact you, that you are more concerned with making sure things are done right... not making extra profit. I think allot of poeple who have anger towards you, unfortunately have misplaced anger. If anything they should be disgusted with the patent process in general. The whole thing is one giant kludge. You are just smart enough to know that you need to work withing the system if you want to survive in the long run. I commend you for that.

Thanks for busting your ass to create this product. It has seriously been a pleasure to medicate with the cloud. I know my quality of life has improved because of it. :bowdown:

Could I come off like any more of a fanboy??? Well I guess I am...


Slim - thank you very much for that. I typically don't get overly emotional when I read things on the forum because...well, that's just forum life and I'm a manufacturer, it is to be expected. On the other hand, if people are saying things that I flat out disagree with, I'll voice my opinion.

I'm in the same boat as you, if we could do away with all of this legal mumbo jumbo, ultimately that would be the best thing. Unfortunately, we live in a world that is run this way so we have to play by the rules. We wanted to do some things with the Cloud that would infringe on someone else's patent. We could be dicks and mention this manufacturer by name but that wouldn't solve anything. Since we have to play by those rules, why shouldn't everyone else?

Actions speak louder than words, I would have thought with our track record, people would have put a little more faith in us.
 

zmurder

Well-Known Member
You're basically telling us that we are the bad guys for wanting to protect what we created. That after spending well into the mid 6 figures to develop what we believe to be the pinnacle of vaporization technology, we should not be protective of our intellectual property. Not only that, you basically said that this design was so obvious that someone was bound to come up with it. It has been 15 years since I started vaping and I have yet to see another vaporizer company come out with anything remotely similar to the Cloud.

You're putting a lot of words into people's mouths here. You're also confusing the issue of the HT IP vs. the Cloud IP. For you as a business they may be one and the same, but I think it's clear that some on here have a problem with the HydraTube patent, but have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM with you feeding your families via profits from a patented Cloud vaporizer. You say that you have never seen another vaporizer company come out with "anything remotely similar to the Cloud" -- and I think this is absolutely true -- but can you honestly say that nobody has come up with something remotely similar to the HydraTube?-- especially since a few previous and very similar bubblers have been brought up on here.

Oh, and why is the Zapbubbler not a problem? I thought it terminated in a 14mm gong?
 

stonemonkey55

Chief Vapor Officer
Manufacturer
You're putting a lot of words into people's mouths here. You're also confusing the issue of the HT IP vs. the Cloud IP. For you as a business they may be one and the same, but I think it's clear that some on here have a problem with the HydraTube patent, but have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM with you feeding your families via a patented Cloud vaporizer. You say that you have never seen another vaporizer company come out with "anything remotely similar to the Cloud" -- and I think this is absolutely true -- but can you honestly say that nobody has come up with something remotely similar to the HydraTube?-- especially since a few previous and very similar bubblers have been brought up on here.

Oh, and why is the Zapbubbler not a problem? I thought it terminated in a 14mm gong?

I guess technically it would infringe but as I said earlier, we're not interested in going after anyone. We just don't want anyone making anything that could be mistaken as a VapeXhale product without our seal of approval. We've already had a few bad launches and don't want to deal with support issues for other glass that weren't made or approved by us. Not only does that take resources on our end, but it is a bad experience for a user who thought it was VapeXhale all along, not some independent glass blower who was masquerading as one of our in house blowers and selling "direct" at a cheaper price.

I never said that there weren't anything that resembled a HydraTube before the HydraTubes came out. But remember this, we released photos of our HydraTubes three years ago and if it has any resemblance to anything out at that point of time, it was merely coincidental. Cleardome's bubblers, the AquaVape, AromaZap's bubblers, I'm not sure if these were around three years ago or not but I can assure that the design of the HydraTube was completely independent. The reason I know this is because the person who came up with the concept, doesn't even smoke pot. He merely observed what we were doing and gave us a suggestion that we ran with.

Like I said, I'm not denying that there are things that are similar. All I'm saying is that we were the first to make it extremely workable and practical and patented the system. As @Slim eluded to in his post, we are far more interested in protecting the integrity of our brand than preventing other people from making product.
 

Hippie Dickie

The Herbal Cube
Manufacturer
@SM55 - is that a design patent or a device patent, if i may ask?

edit: thanks SM55, yes "utility patent" is what i was trying to refer to by "device patent"
 
Hippie Dickie,

WafflesVape

Well-Known Member
Ray from SSFG just uploaded this pic.
I like the way he has constructed the curved glass pathway, it seems great in that it appears to possibly reduce the chance of back flow occurring.
ssfgtuben.jpg
 

Stu

Maconheiro
Staff member
Ray from SSFG just uploaded this pic.
At first i was confused by the glass extension, but I absolutely love that it appears to make it splash-back proof! No more worrying about friends coughing into a tube and ruining your Cloud!
Awesome! Hope we see more similar innovations forthcoming!
Is that an approved piece, SM?
:peace:
 
Stu,

Sinclue

OK disagree with me, I can't force you to be right
The center glass core of mine moves up and down by as much as 3/8".

I'm assuming its not supposed to be moving up and down.

Does its position affect the operation? Is it best to be "up" or "down"? Pushed all the way down the glass rests directly on top of the base unit. Is that the way its supposed to operate or is the bottom of the glass supposed to up off the hot metal?
 
Sinclue,

JCat

Well-Known Member
Accessory Maker
Just thought I'd mention as far as the Aromazap product, it sure looks like it has a GonG connection!


I'm sure if you guys got the patent by the way you deserve it! (more to it than just the GonG connection I'm sure ... from the way everyone raves about the performance of this vaporizer, it's gotta' be something special!)


Edit: (Deleted Picture - Should have read the next page before posting as someone already mentioned this! whoops! sorry!)
 
JCat,

Silver420Surfer

Downward spiral
Another one bites the dust.:cry:

After catching up on new posts and such(lots of cool looking new HTs), I headed back to my vape lounge, to find my Cloud in "stand by" mode, which was cool, I was away for over an hour. Switched it back on and 30 minutes later and it's still staring at me with a red light. Uh-oh, not good, my Cloud has always heated itself up within a 10 minute period. No noise, no warmth, no working Cloud. This will be my 4th and to say I am heartbroken would be an understatement. Worked normally all day. No surges in power(its on a surge protector anyway). Laptops, lights, etc all work without problem thru same surge protector. I switched to multiple outlets with no change.
Just wanted to share my grief with the board. Will create a ticket tomorrow, but if anyone(SM) sees this first, please feel free to PM or email me. Just lost my LSV to a buddy who was owed $, and only left with a Solo, which while a nice portable, can't remotely begin to compare to the Cloud. Especially since I have some marathon sessions that the Solo battery cant handle.

AARGH! Why do you hate me Cloud? What did I ever do to you to deserve this? Why do I love you so much?
Shut up and kiss me, Cloud!!...:love:

I hope I can pay for overnite shipping or something to minimize my downtime. Solo is already been discharged and now waiting for it to charge again. I can't live like this...without... Cloud.

Edit: I hope it goes without saying that I, Silver420Surfer, endorse the Cloud and VX, without hesitation.
I just have bad luck in general.:(
 
Silver420Surfer,

Seek

Apprentice Daydreamer
I fell sorry for you. Also I've never seen problem like this before if my memory isn't fucking with me. There has been many problems with light indicator, some units run hot, cold or unevely, some fumed. But I've never heard that Cloud has stopped heating at all. Maybe the heater power got disconnected somehow... As the red light shines, the control circuit (whatever it is) seems to be ok.
 
Seek,

GReYAReA

Amid The Vapors...
imo intellectual property issues are best handled in court by lawyers and judges. :)

This is one place I disagree.

1) Patent attorney's ruin IP, for the small guy at least. They are there to suck as much money off the inventor as possible at every level, from filing to litigation. Most of them work for big firms, and big firms are typically nothing more than giant BILLING MACHINES to take every minute of billable time they can from their clients.

2) Avoid litigation if you can. You'll never recove your expenses, especially an industry like this.

3) File your own patents. Patent attorneys will charge you a fortune, and they aren't inventors in the first place. You can probably do it better without them.

4) Just Screw attorneys, ha. Sorry any lawyers, but you know your profession better than I ;)
 

Silver420Surfer

Downward spiral
Support ticket logged for Cloud. Already had contact with SM.
Ugh, onto my morning session with my Solo. Feels like the old saying about bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Future Cloud purchasers, buy 2 so you wont have Cloud withdrawls like me. :lol:
 
Silver420Surfer,

WatTyler

Revolting Peasant
You're also confusing the issue of the HT IP vs. the Cloud IP. For you as a business they may be one and the same, but I think it's clear that some on here have a problem with the HydraTube patent, but have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM with you feeding your families via profits from a patented Cloud vaporizer.
I couldn't agree more with this. I felt you misrepresented me quite badly in the past posts, SM, inciting me to repost. The Cloud Vaporizer is the exciting innovation here, and good luck with it. That is where the six figure research budget went and I can support that patent and your right to profit from it as much as I can most others. But not one for a simple water diffused mouthpiece. And I honestly would feel the same even if I fed my family this way since you asked, SM, it's truly honestly how I see it.

They've even been made for bongs.
nw_01456_1-340x340.jpg
1255b.jpg

But remember this, we released photos of our HydraTubes three years ago and if it has any resemblance to anything out at that point of time, it was merely coincidental....... I can assure that the design of the HydraTube was completely independent.
Exactly, so I think that at best there'd be a strong case for convergent evolution. I expect the bong pictured above was designed independently too, whilst thinking about how to dismantle a bong rather than having any regard whatsoever for vaporizers (it's male). The concept is not just a Cloud add-on, it's a general vape/bong add-on IMO and that's why I don't feel like a patent here is really fair. I think at least several people 'own' this idea, although there's no doubt in my mind that the Cloud that will expose the concept to a much wider market. Anyway, my opinion over ownership of the idea is neither here nor there really. It's one for a systematic evidence based approach by the legal bigwigs.

This covers any water tool that has an intake at the bottom and is diffused through a water chamber.
This is what was said, and I'm afraid this looks like VX potentially attempting to take a little more than their fair share and own the market for all in-line vaporizer water tools rather than just their brand, which I'm sure you'd agree, SM, feels like a crafty move, although I accept SM's subsequent statement that that's not the intent in good faith. So much does depend on how those rights are enforced.

I can totally see why VX might want to restrict the use of their own Hydratubes to the Cloud- aside of the branding and operational reasons mentioned by SM it's also going to be an important sideline providing custom tubes, I expect. I can understand that. Trademarked Hydratubes seems like some protection, though IMO a better way to have achieved this might have been through a proprietary interface with the vape (more like D9 and their rare threading for the Omicron cartridges) or something showing some real innovation and patenting that, rather than patenting use of a common GonG connection widely used throughout the industry. It would have been much more consumer friendly than potentially restricting development of all future water cooled GonG mouthpieces. Of course, this would have meant the use of "Cloud adaptors" with other non VX water tools, but VX could at least be assured of the control they want on the water cooled mouthpieces/"hydratubes". Seems to me it would be a more robust patent, too.

Anyway, VX have made their choices and I wish them good luck in all but the patent application for inline water cooled mouthpieces which i think could damage legitimate consumer choices. I am most certainly not saying "bad guys" or "evil corporation".

:2c:

:peace:
 

oldiebutgoodie

Apostle, Church of Vaporization
Ray from SSFG just uploaded this pic.
I like the way he has constructed the curved glass pathway, it seems great in that it appears to possibly reduce the chance of back flow occurring.

I'm still at the back of the class when it comes to glass. What exactly is the "back flow" you are referring to with the HT? All the HT's?
 
oldiebutgoodie,

WatTyler

Revolting Peasant
^^ Isn't it the siphon effect that sometimes drains water out of the bottom of the tube? (due to a small gap between the inlet and outlet of the perc and movement/changes in pressure)
 
WatTyler,

JCat

Well-Known Member
Accessory Maker
I'm still at the back of the class when it comes to glass. What exactly is the "back flow" you are referring to with the HT? All the HT's?

Referring to water flowing back through the HT and into the unit I believe (either from someone blowing into it accidentally or just the sudden release after high intake pressure might cause it as well I would imagine ... )
 
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