Rick
Zapman
OK, kewpcer, I follow that. You first had "current"(amperage) decreases, now you have decreased wattage which of course is related to current used by the device.
Answer these Qs:
Why does an electrical circuit produce heat at the point of resistance, if there is any resistance somewhere in the circuit? With no resistance(which would be less than ANY resistance), there is no heat produced in the circuit.
and, why do log vapes generally run hotter with time, assuming no charring? Wood will reach very dry very quick with a heater in it, especially when it was dry to begin with.
and another. Why do the heaters increase in ohms(and stay there) once fired up for a period of time?
Another good argument for a VV power supply and constant voltage read-out.
The only thing that EVER changes the voltage(ie, current/watts via ohms law) of a fixed voltage unregulated transformer which we have always used is the electric grid voltage input to the transformer.
Bubblers will go back in stock tomorrow, Wednesday, at 5 PM pacific time. A few more than the last go-around.
Answer these Qs:
Why does an electrical circuit produce heat at the point of resistance, if there is any resistance somewhere in the circuit? With no resistance(which would be less than ANY resistance), there is no heat produced in the circuit.
and, why do log vapes generally run hotter with time, assuming no charring? Wood will reach very dry very quick with a heater in it, especially when it was dry to begin with.
and another. Why do the heaters increase in ohms(and stay there) once fired up for a period of time?
Another good argument for a VV power supply and constant voltage read-out.
The only thing that EVER changes the voltage(ie, current/watts via ohms law) of a fixed voltage unregulated transformer which we have always used is the electric grid voltage input to the transformer.
Bubblers will go back in stock tomorrow, Wednesday, at 5 PM pacific time. A few more than the last go-around.
DannyVi
Well-Known Member
That would be cool!
rotax
Zaporist
On the note about differences/variances in power grid (input) power, I can attest to it making a very big difference.
I moved from the sticks in MT to the 'burbs in Sac and my MZ runs much warmer. Noticeable to the touch and when inhaled.
I was actually a bit caught off guard by it..I have no reason to wrap or coozie my zap anymore...and actually am semi-concerned about leaving it on 247.
Btw, love the bubblers. I think my next purch is glass more suitable for log vape stems...
I moved from the sticks in MT to the 'burbs in Sac and my MZ runs much warmer. Noticeable to the touch and when inhaled.
I was actually a bit caught off guard by it..I have no reason to wrap or coozie my zap anymore...and actually am semi-concerned about leaving it on 247.
Btw, love the bubblers. I think my next purch is glass more suitable for log vape stems...
Jeppy
Pure Vaporist
rotax,,,,which sticks were you from in Montaner?
Although there is more current going through the resistor, for a given amount of power, the lower the resistance, the lower the voltage drop across it. It's not possible to expect a resistor or wire at close to zero Ohms to drop 12V across it. You would need to pump an incredible amount of current through it for this to occur, and probably destroy the component and/or the power supply in the process. Ohm's law again: Power (Watts) = Voltage squared / Resistance, so given a 12V supply, a resistor at 20 Ohms will dissipate 7.2W, which we all know.
At 10 Ohms, 14.4W
At 1 Ohm, 144W
At 0.1 Ohm, 1.44kW
At 0.01 Ohm, 14.4kW, etc.
At this point we are probably reaching the limit of the mains supply to a typical house.
The wires in a circuit, which are close to zero Ohms, will drop a negligible amount of voltage across them; instead it is the other components that perform work, such as resistors, motors, etc, that do this. You wouldn't make a circuit that is simply a short (ie almost zero Ohms). Well you can, but you know what happens when you try to do that...
To put it another way, if you built a vape with a 1 Ohm resistor in it, you would only need a power supply of about 2.7V for the required 7.2W of dissipation to get it up to temperature. The power supply would need to deliver about 2.7A however... not very practical.
Log vapes running hotter over time probably has more to do with the wood than anything electrical. From experiments I've done, I've noticed the wood shrinks when high heat has been applied over time, even though the wood was completely dry to begin with. This would increase the density of the wood, allowing heat to be conducted to the outside surface more easily, so it would feel hotter in the hand. The design of the CRZ should mostly eliminate this I would think.
It's a very interesting discovery you have made about the resistors increasing in resistance over time. I can only guess that this is due to stress, kind of like an elastic band that has been stretched too far and doesn't quite return to its original size. We are, after all, running these resistors well outside of the manufacturer's operating limits. They aren't really designed to be used as heating elements. I'm surprised at how robust they are.
kewpcer
Active Member
@Rick
First, all electrons are not created equal. They have different energy levels they can move back and forth between them as they gain or lose energy.
The circuit produces heat at the load because that's where the "friction" (close enough to true) is. As the resistor limits the flow of high energy electrons going through it by forcing them to "slow down" it forces some of them to give up a bit of their energy, dropping them to a lower energy level. IIRC the energy is released as a photon.
And I don't know if "generally run hotter over time" is enough to start speculating as to why. None of my zaps have gotten hotter over time. Since the initial break in they've remained relatively stable. The Walnut is even pretty charred, but still is right where it's always been. Perhaps you should make a couple of test units and plug them in to the same outlet and let them run for a few months. Every week take a heat reading at the port and a resistance reading and watch how the numbers move over time.
First, all electrons are not created equal. They have different energy levels they can move back and forth between them as they gain or lose energy.
The circuit produces heat at the load because that's where the "friction" (close enough to true) is. As the resistor limits the flow of high energy electrons going through it by forcing them to "slow down" it forces some of them to give up a bit of their energy, dropping them to a lower energy level. IIRC the energy is released as a photon.
And I don't know if "generally run hotter over time" is enough to start speculating as to why. None of my zaps have gotten hotter over time. Since the initial break in they've remained relatively stable. The Walnut is even pretty charred, but still is right where it's always been. Perhaps you should make a couple of test units and plug them in to the same outlet and let them run for a few months. Every week take a heat reading at the port and a resistance reading and watch how the numbers move over time.
Rick
Zapman
I love it when this old impert(opposite of an expert) gets to learn new things.
@kewpcer, I find the logic of lower heat(less watts) from a higher ohm reading resistor completely logical. I have known about ohms law since I was a 'tween' and had my own little Ham Radio 'shack' in my stepdads garage. I even built a 50 watt cw Heathkit transmitter but never did get my license. Had a very sweet receiver(RME? YES it was! it was over 50 years ago).
So anyway, i love all the good info from you and hazy, rotax and others. Your information is facts. My questions are based on observations. For instance, I have replaced heaters with HIGHER ohm reading heaters and customers were happier. Go figure.
Frankly, I guess I need a little of "baffled" in my life to operate normally. I still am baffled over some heat problems but am convincing myself a VV will eliminate the baffle for customers.
Now another question.
What are the downsides of a VV power supply? They have been around long enough for some customer feedback. I would like to hear some of that here as I am about ready to jump on the first batch.
I am looking at a 1.5 to 15 volt, 2 amp model with a good sized digital volt display, black in color and about 1.5 pounds. I will probably be able to get it out there, stand alone, for very close to the red one with flames
($40). As a substitute for the stock transformer with an order, between $15 and $20 extra. I also plan to include a power cord with the log vape plug installed.
I should be able to have it all together by next week.
Any thoughts or advice from the crew? length of power cord? don't do it? do it? Dependability of the VV?
I'll ease up on the trigger for a few hours.
Going over for bubblers today. Back in stock at 5PM pacific time today. Yea, I already said that, I know.
@reese-I will have your answer later this afternoon re: air holes in the bubbler.
@kewpcer, I find the logic of lower heat(less watts) from a higher ohm reading resistor completely logical. I have known about ohms law since I was a 'tween' and had my own little Ham Radio 'shack' in my stepdads garage. I even built a 50 watt cw Heathkit transmitter but never did get my license. Had a very sweet receiver(RME? YES it was! it was over 50 years ago).
So anyway, i love all the good info from you and hazy, rotax and others. Your information is facts. My questions are based on observations. For instance, I have replaced heaters with HIGHER ohm reading heaters and customers were happier. Go figure.
Frankly, I guess I need a little of "baffled" in my life to operate normally. I still am baffled over some heat problems but am convincing myself a VV will eliminate the baffle for customers.
Now another question.
What are the downsides of a VV power supply? They have been around long enough for some customer feedback. I would like to hear some of that here as I am about ready to jump on the first batch.
I am looking at a 1.5 to 15 volt, 2 amp model with a good sized digital volt display, black in color and about 1.5 pounds. I will probably be able to get it out there, stand alone, for very close to the red one with flames
($40). As a substitute for the stock transformer with an order, between $15 and $20 extra. I also plan to include a power cord with the log vape plug installed.
I should be able to have it all together by next week.
Any thoughts or advice from the crew? length of power cord? don't do it? do it? Dependability of the VV?
I'll ease up on the trigger for a few hours.
Going over for bubblers today. Back in stock at 5PM pacific time today. Yea, I already said that, I know.
@reese-I will have your answer later this afternoon re: air holes in the bubbler.
Magic9
Plant Enthusiast
The only thing I'm semi-qualified to answer there, is the cord length. 2-3 more feet over the original would be ideal for me. Would it be possible to offer cords in varying lenghts, since I'm sure everyone is a different distance from their outlet.
I might have missed it, but any idea how long it could run at close to full temp before any damage is done?
I might have missed it, but any idea how long it could run at close to full temp before any damage is done?
kewpcer
Active Member
I'm just going by what I remember from sophmore physics, which isn't as much as I'd like. An engineer could answer your questions as easily as I could point you to a lightswitch, but until one shows up, I'll do my best.
The log vape is a more complex system, so there's always the possibility that there's something we're not taking into consideration. The effect of the wood seems to be really pronounced, and somewhat unpredictable, and I know next to nothing about heat sink thermodynamics.
However, in my opinion you're spot on. You have a system that is slightly unpredictable, say +/- 10%, so the best alternative is to provide the ability for the user to adapt their system. The 15v system should be perfect, as my CRZ is too hot at the output of my 13.5v which is around 18 volts. It goes straight to popcorn taste.
Shipping out my CRZ today. Sorry about the holdup, but my world has been a tornado lately.
The log vape is a more complex system, so there's always the possibility that there's something we're not taking into consideration. The effect of the wood seems to be really pronounced, and somewhat unpredictable, and I know next to nothing about heat sink thermodynamics.
However, in my opinion you're spot on. You have a system that is slightly unpredictable, say +/- 10%, so the best alternative is to provide the ability for the user to adapt their system. The 15v system should be perfect, as my CRZ is too hot at the output of my 13.5v which is around 18 volts. It goes straight to popcorn taste.
Shipping out my CRZ today. Sorry about the holdup, but my world has been a tornado lately.
stinkbud
Well-Known Member
Wow oh wow oh wow
I have put my zap on the shelf for a bit since I am facing another potential pre-employment screening, so its back to the synthetics for a little. Still, I saw about the new bubblers by chance, I haven't logged into FC fo quite some time. What a beautiful addition to Zapville...kudos! I will be getting one tonight for sure.
EDIT: Here I go refreshing this thread and the bubbler page at Zapville over and over again. Oh well, im an obsessive ass
I have put my zap on the shelf for a bit since I am facing another potential pre-employment screening, so its back to the synthetics for a little. Still, I saw about the new bubblers by chance, I haven't logged into FC fo quite some time. What a beautiful addition to Zapville...kudos! I will be getting one tonight for sure.
EDIT: Here I go refreshing this thread and the bubbler page at Zapville over and over again. Oh well, im an obsessive ass
Willuminati
Will
My co-pilot and my black locust CRZ.
My co-pilot and my black locust CRZ.
Nice co-pilot. Looks like a Severum. I had a Green Severum that was that size that would "blush" and turn purple. He had quite a personality for a fish.
Willuminati
Will
He's actually a Red Devil and wicked mean he bites lol.
Rick
Zapman
Hey dudes and dudesses. Go slow like a turtle when ordering the bubbler. I am getting some impatient folks who are taking them down on inventory but the paypal thing does not work right so they try again and again.
Take it easy. I just called Tim and we are on his regular special list so they will be coming regularly.
I really do love it, you all know that. Nice to have something special. They are even just a little smaller than the first batch. Tim has been doing glass for 15 years or so. He said he is breaking one in three but is getting much better with practice. They are a trip to build. Lots of welds.
VV voltage supply looks like a happening mid to late next week.
Take it easy. I just called Tim and we are on his regular special list so they will be coming regularly.
I really do love it, you all know that. Nice to have something special. They are even just a little smaller than the first batch. Tim has been doing glass for 15 years or so. He said he is breaking one in three but is getting much better with practice. They are a trip to build. Lots of welds.
VV voltage supply looks like a happening mid to late next week.
They were already small IMO.
Rick
Zapman
stinkbud, do you have SS tipped stems or brass tipped stems?
And dude, let me know via Email as names and screen names matching does not happen in the bosses head. Oh, a few maybe, but there are so many names and I am getting older all the time.
Yup, another Tanqueray night. Big town day. Home safe. Fun times at FC too.
I gotta say, it is neat to be on a top glass blowers special list for wholesale customers. Tim says alot of people want to do wholesale from him.....once.
And dude, let me know via Email as names and screen names matching does not happen in the bosses head. Oh, a few maybe, but there are so many names and I am getting older all the time.
Yup, another Tanqueray night. Big town day. Home safe. Fun times at FC too.
I gotta say, it is neat to be on a top glass blowers special list for wholesale customers. Tim says alot of people want to do wholesale from him.....once.