Debt Ceiling Talk by Obama - Anyone Gonna Do What He Asked Us to Do?

VWFringe

Naruto Fan
pretty bold asking us to call our representatives

anyone likely to do it?


here's what I've got written so far:
Dear John Campbell,
Please, Stop the Republican Party from using the debt ceiling, and the economic crisis, as an excuse to push radical changes which are outside the mandate of the People,

And, don't hide behind the meager support the media can seem to muster, we both know most American's are "walking wounded" in what Hillary calls the "War of Information"

And, your party should be ashamed for that - Fox News and it's "echo chamber" may have worked a treat for the Republican party, but it's based on mis-information, spin and filtering, so "you" should be ashamed for that - not cool, not progressive, not what this Country needs, and it's not just Fox, it's all corporate media.

Think about your kid's school, and their teachers. Is it better to have enough revenue, or lay off teachers every few years?

You know where we are headed if we let the rich dictate the message, the dialog, of public debate. And where will that leave the American People? Stupid, paying the corporate taxes for their employers, happy to have a job, no unions, no way for the American people to get together and lobby, only the rich, controlling the message, the laws, the regulations, giving no crumbs from their table save what's needed to produce more extravagent television shows, and saving money by doing reality TV every chance they get.

The rich do not seem to understand that much like the American Indian's thought they did not own the land, just were taking care of it for a while, the rich in America do not appreciate how they've been able to extract as much wealth as they have due to the regulations, or lack or them, and the system of laws and labor at their disposal. They don't really own that money, it's been made off the backs of others, and they can try to keep it, but eventually it nees to flow back...and we have no doubt business people will continue to do business even in a system rife with regulations meant to save lives.

Stop the race to the bottom, we should not be trying to force out regulations, we should enforce them world-wide, how can we expect terrorism to stop if we continue treating people around the world so badly? (I know what happened in the Marriana's islands with the "made in America" shirts being made by semi-slave labor under the Republican party's watch, and I don't believe the climate of looking the other way to get campaign contributions has changed, has it?)

Stop using the debt ceiling to push change that the American people do not want. Stop trying to phrase it like they do. Start working on the things the American people really do want (infrastructure, schools, things that matter to their actual lives).

Please!

prolly says way too much, just wanted to see it, maybe delete some stuff before i press send...too much hot rhetoric floating in my brain sometimes, emotions getting churned up with thought in untidy ways, haha

or should i send it just like that? what should i say? lol

EDIT: wow, no comments? just a "nope" or "too long to read" would be nice...?
 
VWFringe,

VWFringe

Naruto Fan
instead I wrote:
It is my belief that the Republican Party is using the economic crisis and the debt ceiling as a means to push thru legislation which ultimately hurts the poor in America. We are the richest country on earth and yet we do less for the poor and hurt than any other European country, and have worse infant mortality rates as doctors push C-Sections and unsafe drugs on women for greed and fear, rather than good medicine. WE are doing so many things wrong, and moving in a dark direction. Could you put your political identity aside for a while and concentrate on what we need? Please.

Raise the debt ceiling without deals which harm American life and the rights we have built over so long.
 
VWFringe,

pakalolo

Toolbag v1.1 (candidate)
Staff member
Essentially you are asking politicians to go against their most basic nature, i.e. use any and all means available to push their agenda. This isn't a Republican or Democrat thing. They're all ready to do that, and if you believe that any of them (and I cannot emphasize any enough) have principles that would prevent them from acting thus, contact me for a great deal on a bridge.
 
pakalolo,

aesthyrian

Blaaaaah
I really cant stand the mentality that all Politicians are corrupt. It's a blatant lie and a very odd way of thinking.

I have been doing what Obama asked, for a ton of stuff. I believe it is a civil duty to do so, and I like to bitch, so I better at least do my part or else I can just shut up I suppose. :lol:
 
aesthyrian,

weedemon

enthusiast
you are right aesthyrian, there are some good apples out in that cess pool we call politics but i think there are a lot more rotten ones than there are good.

imo if we really wanted to take our government back, lets make it so you do not get paid to do it. you cannot gain with other benefits either. make it so that it isn't profitable to be a politician and i think we will be on the beginning of being on the right track...

I would change a LOT of things about our capitalist driven society though. (capitalism, just like communism in theory are beautiful things, but put into practice with the opportunity to cheat and us humans have shown our hand... for the most part we are a bunch of assholes. :( )

lol incorporate the death penalty for greed haha! that would be a start too!
 
weedemon,

lwien

Well-Known Member
weedemon said:
imo if we really wanted to take our government back, lets make it so you do not get paid to do it. you cannot gain with other benefits either. make it so that it isn't profitable to be a politician and i think we will be on the beginning of being on the right track...


Who in the hell than would run for office? All of those independently wealthy people who are not looking for any monetary reward along with not desiring any power that they currently don't have, and who just want to enter politics for the good of mankind?
 
lwien,

Plotinus

Well-Known Member
pakalolo said:
Essentially you are asking politicians to go against their most basic nature, i.e. use any and all means available to push their agenda. This isn't a Republican or Democrat thing. They're all ready to do that, and if you believe that any of them (and I cannot emphasize any enough) have principles that would prevent them from acting thus, contact me for a great deal on a bridge.

Democrats have already offered a couple of different packages that are all spending cuts, no revenue increases. More than 2 *trillion* dollars in cuts -- more than Republicans originally asked for when the debate began. Republicans have walked away from these deals.

Those Democrat packages are still available and the President and Majority Leader have both shown they have the votes on their side of the aisle to move them forward. Meanwhile, John Boehner, the Republican leader in the House, cannot get enough Republicans to vote *for his own plan.* A

Do you understand why what you wrote up there is ridiculous?

Americans have accurately understood that our representatives are playing a game of chicken with our retirement savings and our currency - two vehicles speeding toward one another at breakneck speed. But too many of us still don't seem to grasp that one of those cars doesn't even have a driver, let alone a map.
 
Plotinus,

VWFringe

Naruto Fan
yeah, they should make enough to avoid some temptation

regulators should make as much as the people they're regulating too, IMO

Pakalolo, I take your point, thanks.

The good politicians ARE right that the change has to be forced by the people, we have to stop electing Democrats, Libertarians, and Republicans, IMO, LOL

because they vote along party lines that don't reflect the will of the people - the people want roads and schools more than an army all over the world, i think

and we have to make our voices heard, i hope emails' good enough, i don't want to call, but if someone said they count one call to twenty emails, i'd prolly call, hahaha
 
VWFringe,

weedemon

enthusiast
lwien said:
who just want to enter politics for the good of mankind?

Personally i would hope every single one of them! isn't this really the point?
 
weedemon,

VWFringe

Naruto Fan
weedemon said:
lwien said:
who just want to enter politics for the good of mankind?

Personally i would hope every single one of them! isn't this really the point?

it's just that we can see now, so many go into politics not thinking of the salary, but the opportunities to get a good job afterwards if they help out certain companies, and of course for the opportunity to forward their party's agenda

if you want to make it so they don't have as much incentives, pay them well but chop away the mechanisms that bind them to making bad decisions - corporate influence. Prevent them from going into any line of business for three years afterwards that capitalizes on their having been in government. Something to stop these jokers from tearing apart our laws and then jumping ship to high paying lobbying jobs.
 
VWFringe,

aesthyrian

Blaaaaah
I think IRV (Instant run off voting) would be a great mechanism that could change the way the politics of America operate, and it can actually happen and already exist in some area's. A third party won't work because then you get Canada where Harper has become PM with only 40% of the vote. And good luck getting rid of k-street. :/
 
aesthyrian,

tdavie

Unconscious Objector
I called every representative in North Dakota that I thought was appropriate (1 congressman and 2 senators is that right? Scuse me for being wrong, but I am Canadian). I identified myself as a Canadian, and was surprised that I was not hung up upon. I expressed my concerns (specifically a sudden upturn in mortgage %'s as a result of a credit rating downgrade), stating that I thought they were valid because we're inextricably linked, and let them know that as a Canadian I am royally pissed off (didn't say that).

That having been said, the message I gave was 'raise the debt limit and then solve your internal financial problems'.

Sorry guys, that's all I can do as someone who is not an American. I am following every microsecond of this issue/crisis/whatever you want to call it. I'm also worried by the very high value of the Canadian $ w/r to the US greenback :|

Good luck.

Tom
 
tdavie,

VWFringe

Naruto Fan
Thanks, Tom, I'd say you've done yer due diligence...more than I


-------------------
just sharing a graphic from How the Deficit Got This Big

di-STAC.gif
 
VWFringe,

aesthyrian

Blaaaaah
tdavie said:
I called every representative in North Dakota that I thought was appropriate (1 congressman and 2 senators is that right? Scuse me for being wrong, but I am Canadian). I identified myself as a Canadian, and was surprised that I was not hung up upon. I expressed my concerns (specifically a sudden upturn in mortgage %'s as a result of a credit rating downgrade), stating that I thought they were valid because we're inextricably linked, and let them know that as a Canadian I am royally pissed off (didn't say that).

That having been said, the message I gave was 'raise the debt limit and then solve your internal financial problems'.

Sorry guys, that's all I can do as someone who is not an American. I am following every microsecond of this issue/crisis/whatever you want to call it. I'm also worried by the very high value of the Canadian $ w/r to the US greenback :|

Good luck.

Tom

Thank you. You have done more than most of my fellow America citizens will ever dream of doing. You are the reason why I want to move to Canada someday, where people actually care about, ya know... stuff.
 
aesthyrian,

VWFringe

Naruto Fan
aesthyrian said:
tdavie said:
I called every representative in North Dakota that I thought was appropriate (1 congressman and 2 senators is that right? Scuse me for being wrong, but I am Canadian). I identified myself as a Canadian, and was surprised that I was not hung up upon. I expressed my concerns (specifically a sudden upturn in mortgage %'s as a result of a credit rating downgrade), stating that I thought they were valid because we're inextricably linked, and let them know that as a Canadian I am royally pissed off (didn't say that).

That having been said, the message I gave was 'raise the debt limit and then solve your internal financial problems'.

Sorry guys, that's all I can do as someone who is not an American. I am following every microsecond of this issue/crisis/whatever you want to call it. I'm also worried by the very high value of the Canadian $ w/r to the US greenback :|

Good luck.

Tom

Thank you. You have done more than most of my fellow America citizens will ever dream of doing. You are the reason why I want to move to Canada someday, where people actually care about, ya know... stuff.
Here, Here!

been turning it over in my mind a bit too
 
VWFringe,

pakalolo

Toolbag v1.1 (candidate)
Staff member
Plotinus said:
pakalolo said:
Essentially you are asking politicians to go against their most basic nature, i.e. use any and all means available to push their agenda. This isn't a Republican or Democrat thing. They're all ready to do that, and if you believe that any of them (and I cannot emphasize any enough) have principles that would prevent them from acting thus, contact me for a great deal on a bridge.

Do you understand why what you wrote up there is ridiculous?

Your naivete is quaint and charming. I was young once too.
 
pakalolo,

vapirtoo

Well-Known Member
Wow ,I bet you guys do not believe in the tooth fairy :o

How much MJ do you want for that bridge? :lol:

In all seriousness , our elected leaders are way
over their heads in their ability to handle the
mess we all have created.

POWER to the PEOPLE ! !
 
vapirtoo,

bcleez

Well-Known Member
You know Ronald Reagan raised the debt ceiling 17 times AND raised taxes AND threatened to hold social security checks!

Our government is so inefficient and ineffective.
 
bcleez,

Qbit

cannabanana
VWFringe said:
Fox News and it's "echo chamber" may have worked a treat for the Republican party, but it's based on mis-information, spin and filtering, so "you" should be ashamed for that

I'm shocked - SHOCKED! - that you would think such a thing of a news organisation run by Rupert Murdoch.
 
Qbit,

BigDaddyVapor

@BigDogJunction
:lol:

I'll stay out of the political discussions on this site, that's for sure. Though I would suggest many of you venture outside the Puffington Post, DU, Daily KOS and MSDNC. As I always say... I used to be a liberal democrat, then I grew up. :cool:
 
BigDaddyVapor,

Plotinus

Well-Known Member
pakalolo said:
Plotinus said:
pakalolo said:
Essentially you are asking politicians to go against their most basic nature, i.e. use any and all means available to push their agenda. This isn't a Republican or Democrat thing. They're all ready to do that, and if you believe that any of them (and I cannot emphasize any enough) have principles that would prevent them from acting thus, contact me for a great deal on a bridge.

Do you understand why what you wrote up there is ridiculous?

Your naivete is quaint and charming. I was young once too.


I love how you select the only part of my post that isn't an argument, and quote it alone. Speaks volumes.

Here's someone else who I'm sure is "naive" by your standards - meaning they disagree with you. But what would a reporter with decades of experience covering Washington know that you wouldn't, right? You're so *jaded*, you must know something we don't!

Jim Fallows (that guy with reams of experience who still knows less than you said:
Still, anyone who thinks I am mainly blaming the Republicans for the needless debt-ceiling fracas, especially the Tea Party-era House Republicans arrayed behind Rep. Eric Cantor (and Rep. Jim Jordan), is correct. To put the reasons in one place, as things go down to the wire, here they are:

1) The debt-ceiling showdown represents hostage-taking, plain and simple. This is a "crisis" that need never have happened, regardless of which party controlled the White House.

You wouldn't know it from most news coverage, but there is no logical or legislative connection between the House Republicans' stated object of concern, the future budgetary path toward national solvency, and the bonds and notes the Treasury must keep issuing for programs this and previous Congresses have already voted into law. (Ie, additional debt.) It is a quirk of legislative history, not a principle of sound budgeting, that we calculate a "debt ceiling" at all, those debts being a predictable consequence of the programs Congress enacts. That's why increases in the ceiling in the past have been routine measures, or occasions for minor grandstanding. These minor episodes include then-Senator Obama's vote against an increase in 2006. That one passed, as of course did six other increases under George W. Bush (along with the 17 under Ronald Reagan). You can read historical details from the Congressional Research Service in PDF form.

Here's a comparison: Suppose, by similar quirk, there was an arbitrary ceiling on the amount of ammunition the U.S. military could buy each year. Or the amount of fuel for drones, bombers, and Humvees. Like overall national debt, these purchases are foreseeable consequences of previous political decisions -- in this case, about the wars the country decides to fight. But suppose that when the "ammo ceiling" came due for its routine extension, a group of legislators said they would refuse. No more bullets or jet fuel after August 2, and for good measure no more food for the troops, unless demands for radical change in future foreign policy were met in full. That would rightly be seen as blackmail, and as a reckless willingness to damage the nation for partisan ends. A similar reckless exercise in blackmail is underway now, with the difference that the consequences can be longer-lasting and worse.

2) The House GOP position fails the test of basic knowledge. Last night I listened to a Tea Party member from the House explain why there could be no tax increases as part of the deal -- raising taxes is the last thing you need in a recession. In the next sentence, he said that the main virtue of a proposed GOP plan, versus Harry Reid's, is that it made deeper budget cuts right away, though even deeper short-term cuts were essential.

No one had pointed out to him, or he had forgotten, or he didn't realize, that during a recession, raising taxes and cutting budgets are bad for the same reason. They both reduce demand and make a recession worse. You can argue that taxes shouldn't go up in a recession. But if you make that case, as the Republicans (and most Democrats) do, you look like a hack or ignoramus if you insist on short-term budget cuts during the same economic hard times. Most House Republicans argue both sides of this case.

3) It fails the test of basic logic. Or perhaps basic knowledge part #2. If you look at the numbers, like the chart after the jump, you can see that budget-balancing involves a theshold choice. You can be for preserving tax cuts in toto, or you can be for cutting the deficit. But because the tax cuts have played such a major role in creating the deficit, if you have any regard for math or logic you really can't be for both. But most House Republicans are.

4) It displays a lack of tragic imagination. Many on the right have talked themselves into the view that it would be no big deal for the U.S. to go into technical default for a while. And I am sure that the "disaster strikes at midnight!" scenarios about what would happen on August 2 are way overblown. But anyone who thinks this controversy has had no effect on America's standing and assumed credit-worthiness, or that an actual default, whenever it occurred -- in late August, in September -- would not hurt us in the short and long run, needs to get out more. Out into the world, where assessments of basic American steadiness are now being recalibrated.

5) It has turned into zealotry, by which I mean utter disregard for the practical consequences of acts. A Republican demand for $16 million in cuts from the FAA budget (plus some anti-union provisions) has led to an FAA shutdown that has in turn, as the NY Times reports, led to a $25 million per day loss in fees the airlines paid to the FAA. That is, zealotry on this point has already cost the government more than ten times as much as the cuts would have saved. The most predictable consequence of a federal default, in the name of "reducing the deficit," would be a huge increase in the deficit -- through higher interest costs and lower revenues because of the resulting disruption to the economy. It doesn't matter.

The Democrats have too many problems to mention. At other times, their blind spots or special interests have been the bigger impediment to sensible policies. For what it's worth, I am in the camp that feels that President Obama's instinct for conciliation has ill-served him, his party, and the country in this instance. I wish he had made a stronger case and taken a harder line -- and that he would even now be contemplating the "14th Amendment" alternative in the national interest.

Still: When we look back on the destructive folly of this summer, none of us will be seen at our best. But the people threatening to bring out the worst are mostly in the House GOP.
 
Plotinus,

Plotinus

Well-Known Member
By the way, in the interests of peace: I don't know you and I'm not here to make you feel bad. And for what it's worth most Americans seem to be suffering from the same misconceptions you're putting forward.

But you need to understand that your insistent "the system is broken! it's no one group's fault!" attitude is part of the problem. Because inherent in that view is that nothing can be done to fix anything - and there's therefore no accountability for ideological groups that abuse their power to drive the country off a cliff.

It's one thing to try to stay ahead of the game by casting a skeptical eye at our government generally; lord knows we have reason to. But acting like every problem is systemic -- even when the evidence clearly demonstrates otherwise -- is nihilism, plain and simple. You don't have to be young or naive to understand that.
 
Plotinus,

lwien

Well-Known Member
BigDaddyVapor said:
:lol:

I'll stay out of the political discussions on this site, that's for sure. Though I would suggest many of you venture outside the Puffington Post, DU, Daily KOS and MSDNC. As I always say... I used to be a liberal democrat, then I grew up. :cool:

That's one helluva way to stay out of a discussion. :lol:

While I agree that most people just digest the news that supports their beliefs, it is presumptuous to think that it is just those on the left that do this. How 'bout those "righties" that ONLY watch Fox News and listen to Rush?

From my point of view, it's imperative, if you REALLY want to be well informed, to ingest news from BOTH sides of the spectrum, AND...........to watch Jon Stewart so you can be exposed to the irony that is so prevalent within most ALL news media, be they left leaning or right, although, from an irony perspective, it sure seems like Fox News should win the Emmy in that category.
 
lwien,

pakalolo

Toolbag v1.1 (candidate)
Staff member
Plotinus said:
By the way, in the interests of peace: I don't know you and I'm not here to make you feel bad. And for what it's worth most Americans seem to be suffering from the same misconceptions you're putting forward.

But you need to understand that your insistent "the system is broken! it's no one group's fault!" attitude is part of the problem. Because inherent in that view is that nothing can be done to fix anything - and there's therefore no accountability for ideological groups that abuse their power to drive the country off a cliff.

It's one thing to try to stay ahead of the game by casting a skeptical eye at our government generally; lord knows we have reason to. But acting like every problem is systemic -- even when the evidence clearly demonstrates otherwise -- is nihilism, plain and simple. You don't have to be young or naive to understand that.

You seem to hold out an olive branch, but then you snatch it away.

First, you didn't make me feel bad. Second, I'm not an American, but I have followed American politics more closely than most Americans for over 40 years. Third, you posted a long article which actually supports my point of view (explains how Tea Party Republicans have hi-jacked the issue for their own agenda) so thanks for that.

You attribute to me an attitude that I didn't express, namely that nothing can be done to fix anything. I never said that. What I said--and I have found this to be true even for the noblest of politicians, please show me a single counter-example--is that they all will try to turn any situation into a way push their own agenda. Not only do they do this instinctively, they feel obliged to do so.

Finally, I selected that quote because it was ad hominem and I wanted to respond in kind. It was also the only thing in your post that had anything to do with what I said; the rest did not respond in any way to my premise.
 
pakalolo,
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