Madison Wisconsin, and The Attack On Labor In America Today

bcleez

Well-Known Member
Aesthyrian go to Connecticut I will introduce you.

Here you go though http://teacherportal.com/salary/Connecticut-teacher-salary

starting teachers get 39k average teacher salary is 59k - the trick is to continue your education which the state will pay for and you will continue to get that $$$ BTW you get banging health benefits and you are only putting in 9 months of work.
 
bcleez,

rayski

Well-Known Member
bcleez said:
Aesthyrian go to Connecticut I will introduce you.

Here you go though http://teacherportal.com/salary/Connecticut-teacher-salary

starting teachers get 39k average teacher salary is 59k - the trick is to continue your education which the state will pay for and you will continue to get that $$$ BTW you get banging health benefits and you are only putting in 9 months of work.
You do realize that Connecticut has the highest paid teachers in the country. All the other states pay their teachers less. I don't Know about Connecticut, but my daughter, who teachers in NY state, pays for her own graduate school. New York teachers unions must be weak or something.
You don't think people working in the private sector who have masters degrees can make 59k? When you consider education, public workers (except for the least educated) are compensated less than private workers with the same level of education.
 
rayski,

aesthyrian

Blaaaaah
Starting at 39k is pathetic for someone educating the youth aka the future of our country. 59k is better but still nothing to brag about at all. They also have to pay for their classroom supplies with their own money.

And around here the only way to have the state pay for your schooling is to teach in inner city schools, with little to no funding, large classrooms, and kids who most likely think they have no future.

Seems like a shitty deal to me.
 
aesthyrian,

Flyer

Well-Known Member
most of this is over my head, but I do have to applaud bcleez, top to bottom well said.
 
Flyer,

aesthyrian

Blaaaaah
Even if he is mostly wrong, and didn't even provide numbers to support his 100k a year claim?

Why don't you guys talk about Bankers and Hedge Fund Managers the way you do about normal, everyday, middle class people?
 
aesthyrian,

stuartambient

Well-Known Member
aesthyrian said:
Even if he is mostly wrong, and didn't even provide numbers to support his 100k a year claim?

Why don't you guys talk about Bankers and Hedge Fund Managers the way you do about normal, everyday, middle class people?

Because state propaganda doesn't promote that concept. I mean the bankers SAVED THE ECONOMY. Don't you read. Now that true freedom and liberty is here defined by the fake tea party fighting to save the Republic, it's okay to throw people (even if they are somewhat useless at times and parasitical at times) in front of the bus. It's more of the underlying tones around this issue for me then the issue itself.

SA
 
stuartambient,

bcleez

Well-Known Member
aesthyrian said:
Even if he is mostly wrong, and didn't even provide numbers to support his 100k a year claim?

Why don't you guys talk about Bankers and Hedge Fund Managers the way you do about normal, everyday, middle class people?


Aesthrian, my mother and my uncle are both teachers. That is how I know so much about it. My aunt is actually a private school teacher and makes like 30 k. Where I grew up property tax on a regular home is at LEAST 6k about 4k of that goes straight to schools. Am I happy people in my family will get such a fat pay out sure, but I have told them to their face that I don't believe its "right". My mom is 61. Let's say she lives to 91 That is $2,250,000 that will be paid to a teacher that is not teaching... that means $75k a year is not going to current teachers. That is 2 starting teachers salaries a year!!!

No they do not pay for their own supplies in CT. BTW I got a great education and I am very happy for that. It's sad to see how other states would prefer to build multimillion dollar football fields for the school and the minority of the schools population (athletes).

39 -59 for 9 months... 3/4 a year... that isnt bad at all!!

I would love to talk about bankers and hedge fund managers BILKING the system and tax payers. I was in the insurance brokerage business and witnessed it first hand! I think the rich should pay more taxes just like Warren Buffet thinks!

I do not believe in pension plans for government employees. UNLESS you are a paramedic, fire fighter, police officer etc. If you work at the DMV, I am sorry but you do not deserve to put 20 or 30 years in and get a fat payoff.

I am so PRO education, I think its the solution to almost all of our problems. I just used it as an example! People are living longer and longer and if you know basic math you can comprehend that its totally absurd to make these promises to unions. I Don't think that a union worker at GM deserves to make $50 an hour to build a car, I just have first hand knowledge of the education system so I spoke on it.
 
bcleez,

Purple-Days

Well-Known Member
Bcleez , you say, "I Don't think that a union worker at GM deserves to make $50 an hour to build a car..."

The Union and GM have an agreement, and GM has shareholders to assure no funny bizness, the agreement is between them and none of my business (unless I own shares). ;)

On the other hand...

The Teachers Union and the Politicians have an agreement. Problem is the Teachers Union is a large contributor to campaign funds. The Teachers Union has the Politicians by the sack (money sack that is). If a politician doesn't go along with negotiation, that money will be withheld or used to campaign against said politician. And of course once you piss of the teachers, well you know what they will say, 'he's against education' . A politician has had almost no defense against public sector unions, he's either in their pocket or doomed. Reagan is the only one I can remember with the guts to face the situation head on (till now). It took less than 20 years to reach that showdown.

FDR said some things about public sector (government worker) unions. He was 100% against them. He knew they would eventually hold 'the people' hostage. :2c:
 
Purple-Days,

VWFringe

Naruto Fan
evils in the world as i see it:

1. campaign contributions
2. a lot of other stuff

LOL

modern PR - the power to make people believe the rich shouldn't be taxed, and that union wages are something to be torn down. We are surely living in bizarro world...how did norman finkelstein say it, "where reality is literally turned upside down"

does anybody remember the Ludlow Massacre?

Does anybody here believe they will be able to save enough money for all of their healthcare premiums throughout their retirement?

Unions are the poor people's way of petitioning the King for more bread, and believe me the king can afford it, but the king's been busy mining the system and setting the rules to benefit his agenda, while you've been fed the party line.

---------------------------------------
onto the ludlow massacre...
---------------------------------------
The following was excerpted from Howard Zinn's A PEOPLE'S
HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES (pgs 346-349).

"a telephone linesman going through the ruins of the
Ludlow tent colony ... found the charred, twisted bodies
of eleven children and two women. This became known as
the Ludlow Massacre."

The Ludlow Massacre

"... shortly after Woodrow Wilson took office there began in
Colorado one of the most bitter and violent struggles between
workers and corporate capital in the history of the country.

"This was the Colorado coal strike that began in September 1913
and culminated in the 'Ludlow Massacre' of April 1914. Eleven
thousand miners in southern Colorado ... worked for the
Colorado Fuel & Iron Corporation, which was owned by the
Rockefeller family. Aroused by the murder of one of their
organizers, they went on strike against low pay, dangerous
conditions, and feudal domination of their lives in towns
completely controlled by the mining companies. ...

"When the strike began, the miners were immediately evicted
>from their shacks in the mining towns. Aided by the United
Mine Workers Union, they set up tents in the nearby hills and
carried on the strike, the picketing, from these tent colonies.
The gunmen hired by the Rockefeller interests -- the Baldwin-
Felts Detective Agency -- using Gatling guns and rifles, raided
the tent colonies. The death list of miners grew, but they
hung on, drove back an armored train in a gun battle, fought to
keep out strikebreakers. With the miners resisting, refusing
to give in, the mines not able to operate, the Colorado
governor (referred to by a Rockefeller mine manager as 'our
little cowboy governor') called out the National Guard, with
the Rockefellers supplying the Guard's wages.

"The miners at first thought the Guard was sent to protect
them, and greeted its arrival with flags and cheers. They soon
found out the Guard was there to destroy the strike. The Guard
brought strikebreakers in under cover of night, not telling
them there was a strike. Guardsmen beat miners, arrested them
by the hundreds, rode down with their horses parades of women
int he streets of Trinidad, the central town in the area. And
still the miners refused to give in. When they lasted through
the cold winter of 1913-1914, it became clear that
extraordinary measures would be needed to break the strike.

"In April 1914, two National Guard companies were stationed in
the hills overlooking the largest tent colony of strikers, the
one at Ludlow, housing a thousand men, women, children. On the
morning of April 20, a machine gun attack began on the tents.
The miners fired back. Their leader, ..., was lured up into
the hills to discuss a truce, then shot to death by a company
of National Guardsmen. The women and children dug pits beneath
the tents to escape the gunfire. At dusk, the Guard moved down
>from the hills with torches, set fire to the tents, and the
families fled into the hills; thirteen people were killed by
gunfire.

"The following day, a telephone linesman going through the
ruins of the Ludlow tent colony lifted an iron cot covering a
pit in one of the tents and found the charred, twisted bodies
of eleven children and two women. This became known as the
Ludlow Massacre.

"The news spread quickly over the country. In Denver, the
United Mine Workers issued a 'Call to Arms' -- 'Gather together
for defensive purposes all arms and ammunition legally
available.' Three hundred armed strikers marched from other
tent colonies into the Ludlow area, cut telephone and telegraph
wires, and prepared for battle. Railroad workers refused to
take soldiers from Trinidad to Ludlow. At Colorado Springs,
three hundred union miners walked off their jobs and headed for
the Trinidad district, carrying revolvers, rifles, shotguns.

"In Trinidad itself, miners attended a funeral service for the
twenty-six dead at Ludlow, then walked from the funeral to a
nearby building, where arms were stacked for them. They picked
up rifles and moved into the hills, destroying mines, killing
mine guards, exploding mine shafts. The press reported that
'the hills in every direction seem suddenly to be alive with
men.'

"In Denver, eighty-two soldiers in a company on a troop train
headed for Trinidad refused to go. The press reported: 'The
men declared they would not engage in the shooting of women and
children. They hissed the 350 men who did start and shouted
imprecations at them.

"Five thousand people demonstrated in the rain on the lawn in
front of the state capital at Denver asking that the National
Guard officers at Ludlow be tried for murder, denouncing the
governor as an accessory. The Denver Cigar Makers Union voted
to send five hundred armed men to Ludlow and Trinidad. Women
in the United Garment Workers Union in Denver announced four
hundred of their members had volunteered as nurses to help the
strikers.

"All over the country there were meetings, demonstrations.
Pickets marched in front of the Rockefeller office at 26
Broadway, New York City. A minister protested in front of the
church where Rockefeller sometimes gave sermons, and was
clubbed by the police.

"The New York Times carried an editorial on the events in
Colorado, which were not attracting international attention.
The Times emphasis was not on the atrocity that had occurred,
but on the mistake in tactics that had been made. Its
editorial on the Ludlow Massacre began: 'Somebody blundered ...
' Two days later, with the miners armed and in the hills of
the mine district, the Times wrote: 'With the deadliest weapons
of civilization in the hands of savage-mined men, there can be
no telling to what lengths the war in Colorado will go unless
it is quelled by force ... The President should turn his
attention from Mexico long enough to take stern measures in
Colorado.'

"The governor of Colorado ask for federal troops to restore
order, and Woodrow Wilson complied. This accomplished, the
strike petered out. Congressional committees came in and took
thousands of pages of testimony. The union had not won
recognition. Sixty-six men, women, and children had been
killed. Not one militiaman or mine guard had been indicted for
crime.

[...]

"The Times had referred to Mexico. On the morning that the
bodies were discovered in the tent pit at Ludlow, American
warships were attacking Vera Cruz, a city on the coast of
Mexico--bombarding it, occupying it, leaving a hundred Mexicans
dead--because Mexico had arrested American sailors and refused
to apologize to the United States with a twenty-one gun salute.
Could patriotic fervor and the military spirit cover up class
struggle? Unemployment, hard times, were growing in 1914.
Could guns divert attention and create some national consensus
against an external enemy? It surely was a coincidence--the
bombardment of Vera Cruz, the attack on the Ludlow colony. Or
perhaps it was, as someone once described human history, 'the
natural selection of accidents.' Perhaps the affair in Mexico
was an instinctual response of the system for its own survival,
to create a unity of fighting purpose among a people torn by
internal conflict.

"The bombardment of Vera Cruz was a small incident. But in
four months the First World War would begin in Europe.
--oOo--
 
VWFringe,

VWFringe

Naruto Fan
http://nationaljournal.com/is-scott-walker-s-budget-plan-a-bait-and-switch--20110223?print=true

--------------------------
National Journal
"Bait and Switch?
Walker's budget plans don't fix what he says is the crisis."
by Tim Fernholz

Wednesday, February 23, 2011 | 6:00 a.m.

Republican Gov. Scott Walker has kicked off a firestorm with his budget proposals, but his most controversial plans wouldn't address this fiscal year's shortfall.
Updated at 8:10 a.m. on February 23.

Why now?

Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker has sparked massive protests by proposing to curtail public-employee unions and give his administration the power to cut back health care and sell state public utilities through no-bid contracts.

But while Walker argues that his budget-repair legislation must be passed soon to avoid job cuts, the most controversial parts of his bill would have no immediate effect.

The states entire budget shortfall for this year -- the reason that Walker has said he must push through immediate cuts -- would be covered by the governor's relatively uncontroversial proposal to restructure the states debt.

By contrast, the proposals that have kicked up a firestorm, especially his call to curtail the collective-bargaining rights of the state's public-employees, wouldn't save any money this year.

What were asking for is modest, at least to those of us outside of government, Walker said in a televised address Tuesday night.

In January, the Wisconsin Legislative Fiscal Bureau reported that the state would face a $137 million shortfall before the end of the fiscal year on June 30. The governors budget repair bill proposes a debt restructuring that would save the state $165 million in the near term, more than covering the shortfall.

The legislation would also borrow money from a federal welfare program to cover further state shortfalls, and it includes a provision that would allow the sale of the states public utilities without a bidding process or public oversight.

While public unions have agreed to almost $30 million in pay cuts this year if they can keep their bargaining rights, Walker and other Republicans argue that restrictions on union bargaining are necessary to maintain the cuts over time.

Democrats say that there is no reason to make such sweeping changes before the start of the regular budget process, which will need to address the much bigger projected deficit of $3.6 billion between 2011 and 2013 (Wisconsin follows a two-year budget process). Walker delayed introducing his first budget today to campaign for the fiscal fix legislation.

Lets have hearings! Rep. Peter Barca, the Democratic minority leader in the Wisconsin House, said in a speech criticizing the governors timetable. If you dont want to send this to committee and allow for more hearings... lets pull the policy out [of this fiscal bill].

The bill includes a provision that would allow the state to sell or contract out the operation of heating, cooling, and power plants without a bidding process and without consulting the states independent utility regulator. Democratic legislators worried aloud that the process would attract abuse, and Jon Peacock, director of the Wisconsin Budget Project, called the no-bid approach a red flag.



The bill also employs emergency powers that would allow the governors appointed health secretary to redefine the foundations of the states Medicaid program, Badgercare, ranging from eligibility to premiums, with only passive legislative review. The attorney in the legislatures nonpartisan reference bureau who prepared the bill warned that a court could invalidate the statute for violating separation of powers doctrine.

The legislation, the lawyer wrote in a drafters note about the bill, would allow the state Department of Health Services to change any Medical Assistance law, for any reason, at any time, and potentially without notice or public hearing... in addition to eliminating notice and publication requirements, [the changes] would leave the emergency rules in effect without any requirement to make permanent rules and without any time limit.

Our basic point is, why do that in a bill thats being rushed through the legislature in a weeks time that could really stand a more deliberative review? Peacock says. We need to find ways to reduce the cost of Medicaid, [but] we expect legislators to make those decisions and be accountable to their constituents for those decisions.
 
VWFringe,

TerrorTurkey

Well-Known Member
right about now im proud to be from Madison. i didnt go to any of the rallys, but theyre putting up a hell of a fight. teachers were on strike for 3-4 days, downtown was totally fucked for a while, i just avoided it whenever possible. the democrat senators left to Illinois to stay at the clock tower resort where the police cant force them to come back(likely the taxpayers dollar, isnt this whole thing about budget repair?). i heard estimates as many as 40,000 protesters last weekend, but obviously theres no official numbers. a local pizza joint, Ians has been "closed to the public" for about a week, cause theyre only taking donations over the phone to feed the protesters and workers at the capitol.(haha and thats probably why there was 40k, they all showed up for a free slice of pizza and decided to stay for the rally)

"Walker pranked by caller posing as billionaire donor David Koch"
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_7f7b33ce-3f6e-11e0-b629-001cc4c002e0.html

"Protesting means all-night stays at the Capitol for some people"
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_b4afc926-3eef-11e0-b14f-001cc4c002e0.html
 
TerrorTurkey,

VWFringe

Naruto Fan
story below has strong parallels to today, I believe. You will be amazed, if you did not already know, the American Revolution was against multi-national corporations, big business & protectionism, just like today. We've become the queen's company, just as the Israilis have become the Germans in Palestine.

---------------------------------------------------------
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/thom-hartmann/the-real-boston-tea-party_b_187189.html

The Real Boston Tea Party was Against the Wal-Mart of the 1770s


Thom Hartmann.Best-Selling Author and Host of Nationally Syndicated Progressive Talk Show

CNBC Correspondent Rick Santelli called for a "Chicago Tea Party" on Feb 19th in protesting President Obama's plan to help homeowners in trouble. Santelli's call was answered by the right-wing group Freedomworks, which funds campaigns promoting big business interests, and is the opposite of what the real Boston Tea Party was. FreedomWorks was funded in 2004 by Dick Army (former Republican House Majority leader & lobbyist); consolidated Citizens for a Sound Economy, funded by the Koch family; and Empower America, a lobbying firm, that had fought against healthcare and minimum-wage efforts while hailing deregulation.

Anti-tax "tea party" organizers are delivering one million tea bags to a Washington, D.C., park Wednesday morning - to promote protests across the country by people they say are fed up with high taxes and excess spending.

The real Boston Tea Party was a protest against huge corporate tax cuts for the British East India Company, the largest trans-national corporation then in existence. This corporate tax cut threatened to decimate small Colonial businesses by helping the BEIC pull a Wal-Mart against small entrepreneurial tea shops, and individuals began a revolt that kicked-off a series of events that ended in the creation of The United States of America.

They covered their faces, massed in the streets, and destroyed the property of a giant global corporation. Declaring an end to global trade run by the East India Company that was destroying local economies, this small, masked minority started a revolution with an act of rebellion later called the Boston Tea Party.

On a cold November day in 1773, activists gathered in a coastal town. The corporation had gone too far, and the two thousand people who'd jammed into the meeting hall were torn as to what to do about it. Unemployment was exploding and the economic crisis was deepening; corporate crime, governmental corruption spawned by corporate cash, and an ethos of greed were blamed. "Why do we wait?" demanded one at the meeting, a fisherman named George Hewes. "The more we delay, the more strength is acquired" by the company and its puppets in the government. "Now is the time to prove our courage," he said. Soon, the moment came when the crowd decided for direct action and rushed into the streets.

That is how I tell the story of the Boston Tea Party, now that I have read a first-person account of it. While striving to understand my nation's struggles against corporations, in a rare book store I came upon a first edition of "Retrospect of the Boston Tea Party with a Memoir of George R.T. Hewes, a Survivor of the Little Band of Patriots Who Drowned the Tea in Boston Harbor in 1773," and I jumped at the chance to buy it. Because the identities of the Boston Tea Party participants were hidden (other than Samuel Adams) and all were sworn to secrecy for the next 50 years, this account is the only first-person account of the event by a participant that exists. As I read, I began to understand the true causes of the American Revolution.

I learned that the Boston Tea Party resembled in many ways the growing modern-day protests against transnational corporations and small-town efforts to protect themselves from chain-store retailers or factory farms. The Tea Party's participants thought of themselves as protesters against the actions of the multinational East India Company.

Although schoolchildren are usually taught that the American Revolution was a rebellion against "taxation without representation," akin to modern day conservative taxpayer revolts, in fact what led to the revolution was rage against a transnational corporation that, by the 1760s, dominated trade from China to India to the Caribbean, and controlled nearly all commerce to and from North America, with subsidies and special dispensation from the British crown.

Hewes notes: "The [East India] Company received permission to transport tea, free of all duty, from Great Britain to America..." allowing it to wipe out New England-based tea wholesalers and mom-and-pop stores and take over the tea business in all of America. "Hence," wrote, "it was no longer the small vessels of private merchants, who went to vend tea for their own account in the ports of the colonies, but, on the contrary, ships of an enormous burthen, that transported immense quantities of this commodity ... The colonies were now arrived at the decisive moment when they must cast the dye, and determine their course ... "

A pamphlet was circulated through the colonies called The Alarm and signed by an enigmatic "Rusticus." One issue made clear the feelings of colonial Americans about England's largest transnational corporation and its behavior around the world: "Their Conduct in Asia, for some Years past, has given simple Proof, how little they regard the Laws of Nations, the Rights, Liberties, or Lives of Men. They have levied War, excited Rebellions, dethroned lawful Princes, and sacrificed Millions for the Sake of Gain. The Revenues of Mighty Kingdoms have entered their Coffers. And these not being sufficient to glut their Avarice, they have, by the most unparalleled Barbarities, Extortions, and Monopolies, stripped the miserable Inhabitants of their Property, and reduced whole Provinces to Indigence and Ruin. Fifteen hundred Thousands, it is said, perished by Famine in one Year, not because the Earth denied its Fruits; but [because] this Company and their Servants engulfed all the Necessaries of Life, and set them at so high a Price that the poor could not purchase them."

After protesters had turned back the Company's ships in Philadelphia and New York, Hewes writes, "In Boston the general voice declared the time was come to face the storm."

The citizens of the colonies were preparing to throw off one of the corporations that for almost 200 years had determined nearly every aspect of their lives through its economic and political power. They were planning to destroy the goods of the world's largest multinational corporation, intimidate its employees, and face down the guns of the government that supported it.

The queen's corporation

The East India Company's influence had always been pervasive in the colonies. Indeed, it was not the Puritans but the East India Company that founded America. The Puritans traveled to America on ships owned by the East India Company, which had already established the first colony in North America, at Jamestown, in the Company-owned Commonwealth of Virginia, stretching from the Atlantic Ocean to the Mississippi. The commonwealth was named after the "Virgin Queen," Elizabeth, who had chartered the corporation.

Elizabeth was trying to make England a player in the new global trade sparked by the European "discovery" of the Americas. The wealth Spain began extracting from the New World caught the attention of the European powers. In many European countries, particularly Holland and France, consortiums were put together to finance ships to sail the seas. In 1580, Queen Elizabeth became the largest shareholder in The Golden Hind, a ship owned by Sir Francis Drake.

The investment worked out well for Queen Elizabeth. There's no record of exactly how much she made when Drake paid her share of the Hind's dividends to her, but it was undoubtedly vast, since Drake himself and the other minor shareholders all received a 5000 percent return on their investment. Plus, because the queen placed a maximum loss to the initial investors of their investment amount only, it was a low-risk investment (for the investors at least--creditors, such as suppliers of provisions for the voyages or wood for the ships, or employees, for example, would be left unpaid if the venture failed, just as in a modern-day corporation). She was endorsing an investment model that led to the modern limited-liability corporation.

After making a fortune on Drake's expeditions, Elizabeth started looking for a more permanent arrangement. She authorized a group of 218 London merchants and noblemen to form a corporation. The East India Company was born on December 31, 1600.

By the 1760s, the East India Company's power had grown massive and worldwide. However, this rapid expansion, trying to keep ahead of the Dutch trading companies, was a mixed blessing, as the company went deep in debt to support its growth, and by 1770 found itself nearly bankrupt.

The company turned to a strategy that multinational corporations follow to this day: They lobbied for laws that would make it easy for them to put their small-business competitors out of business.

Most of the members of the British government and royalty (including the king) were stockholders in the East India Company, so it was easy to get laws passed in its interests. Among the Company's biggest and most vexing problems were American colonial entrepreneurs, who ran their own small ships to bring tea and other goods directly into America without routing them through Britain or through the Company. Between 1681 and 1773, a series of laws were passed granting the Company monopoly on tea sold in the American colonies and exempting it from tea taxes. Thus, the Company was able to lower its tea prices to undercut the prices of the local importers and the small tea houses in every town in America. But the colonists were unappreciative of their colonies being used as a profit center for the multinational corporation.

Boston's million-dollar tea party

And so, Hewes says, on a cold November evening of 1773, the first of the East India Company's ships of tax-free tea arrived. The next morning, a pamphlet was widely circulated calling on patriots to meet at Faneuil Hall to discuss resistance to the East India Company and its tea. "Things thus appeared to be hastening to a disastrous issue. The people of the country arrived in great numbers, the inhabitants of the town assembled. This assembly, on the 16th of December 1773, was the most numerous ever known, there being more than 2000 from the country present," said Hewes.

The group called for a vote on whether to oppose the landing of the tea. The vote was unanimously affirmative, and it is related by one historian of that scene "that a person disguised after the manner of the Indians, who was in the gallery, shouted at this juncture, the cry of war; and that the meeting dissolved in the twinkling of an eye, and the multitude rushed in a mass to Griffin's wharf."

That night, Hewes dressed as an Indian, blackening his face with coal dust, and joined crowds of other men in hacking apart the chests of tea and throwing them into the harbor. In all, the 342 chests of tea--over 90,000 pounds--thrown overboard that night were enough to make 24 million cups of tea and were valued by the East India Company at 9,659 Pounds Sterling or, in today's currency, just over $1 million.

In response, the British Parliament immediately passed the Boston Port Act stating that the port of Boston would be closed until the citizens of Boston reimbursed the East India Company for the tea they had destroyed. The colonists refused. A year and a half later, the colonists would again state their defiance of the East India Company and Great Britain by taking on British troops in an armed conflict at Lexington and Concord (the "shots heard 'round the world") on April 19, 1775.

That war--finally triggered by a transnational corporation and its government patrons trying to deny American colonists a fair and competitive local marketplace--would end with independence for the colonies.

The revolutionaries had put the East India Company in its place with the Boston Tea Party, and that, they thought, was the end of that. Unfortunately, the Boston Tea Party was not the end; within 150 years, during the so-called Gilded Age, powerful rail, steel, and oil interests would rise up to begin a new form of oligarchy, capturing the newly-formed Republican Party in the 1880s, and have been working to establish a permanent wealthy and ruling class in this country ever since.
 
VWFringe,

chucku

Charles Urbane
Budgets can not be balanced by taking on more debt to pay debt. This is fiscally stupid. There must be reductions in government spending. If this means teachers in WI need to pay a portion of their health care premiums or retirement plans so be it. Nothing different than what most of the private sector already does. Cuts must be made but choosing what and by how much is the billion dollar question. There is also something to be said for lower tax rates stimulating more investment and not chasing away tax paying business to lower taxed locales.
 
chucku,

VWFringe

Naruto Fan
or maybe we should be collecting more taxes, but no one can think a thing like that, they've got us brain-washed into thinking that the other 90% of the wealth just disappeared, or is just waiting to come out and play when the republican's get their way.

the rich invest when they think they can make money, the main thing standing in their way today is uncertainty of that simple equation. Obama being in office does not stop them from making money any chance they get. Uncertainty of when and which regulations will hit does.

It amazes me that we as a population can have our stance on the issues so molded by the popular media. If you believe that we cannot afford as a society to take care of people, or that those people must save enough by retirement to pay for all of their healthcare costs and housing and food, i would point out that other countries do it, and we've made more money, as a country, than they have.

This is a publicity stunt to make us shut up.

I think their party has to take advantage of the times because they can't push forward their real agenda without getting a lot of flack so they're shoving it through under the guise of budget neccessity. Our people's safety net is under attack, and they have you brain-washed into believing there's no other way out. When you believe there is only one course of attack, you suffer. Lack of choices. Being pushed into thinking along one and only one line of thinking. Propaganda.

We did not suddenly have a lot of democrats voting for republican's last election, we just stayed home because we were so disgusted, and now look what's happening, and we think it doesn't matter. They must be doing good for the nation because they were elected by popular mandate.

one saying comes to mind, "the price of apathy to current events is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
VWFringe,

lwien

Well-Known Member
VWFringe said:
We've become the queen's company, just as the Israilis have become the Germans in Palestine.


While I agree that it is totally fucked what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians, to suggest that it is on equal footing compared to what the Germans did to the Jews during WWII is a gross exaggeration, unless of course, I am reading more into your quote than what you wrote.

Sorry if I'm taking this a bit off topic, but I couldn't let this one go without a comment.
 
lwien,

VWFringe

Naruto Fan
the torture stopped a while ago, but now they're just starving them out, so in what bizarro world is it not on a par with what the german's did? how long we haven't paid attention is the main thing, or at least i didn't until about three months ago

kid my daughter hangs out with said he was in italy recently and he said the news they watch over there speaks much more plainly about what is happening in palestine, how many were killed, women kids etc.

funny thing about over there is i understand they had a peaceful relationship, like rich people and mexicans in southern california, until the "PEACE PROCESS" began, and suddenly it was entities relating to each other instead of just people. Like the give and take accross the mexican border, with medical services and schools being shared by border communities, until we decided there has to be a wall.

people and governments, two separate things,

we think it's wrong for a government to repress the will of it's people, but how is it not wrong for our government to play on our weaknesses, and mold popular opinion without feeding us the facts first?
 
VWFringe,

reece

Well-Known Member
He has made supportive comments. May not be enough for some but consider this, the minute he goes to Wisconsin he will re-energize the opposition. The attention will be focused on him instead of the issue at hand. It would be counterproductive.

Sometimes the realities of being president necessitate modifying or breaking campaign promises. Sometimes there is good reason not to follow through on a promise. Have any of us kept every promise made? If not, weren't some of those occasions for legitimate reasons?
 
reece,

lwien

Well-Known Member
reece said:
Sometimes the realities of being president necessitate modifying or breaking campaign promises.

I don't think that there has been ANY president who hasn't, so it might be more accurate, reece, to eliminate the word "sometimes", eh?
 
lwien,

reece

Well-Known Member
hahaha

True, but they don't break all of their promises. I should have worded it differently by leaving out "sometimes," and putting "some" after "breaking." :lol:
 
reece,

lwien

Well-Known Member
^^ Yup, that's what I meant.

This is probably the most famous one..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP9_kkzfN-w

but I have no doubt that we can dig up broken promises on EVERY candidate that has ever run for office in ANY country. The only way to escape this is to not make any campaign promises and if you do that, you would never get elected. It's kind of the nature of the beast. It's the classic example of "Shit happens". :brow:
 
lwien,

OO

Technical Skeptical
VWFringe said:
Because climate change is real
wait, how is this relevant?
and i'm not so sure that climate change is real, i know that we're in an ice age, and that major geological processes (which do end up controlling weather to the greatest extent) are not being affected by the actions of the human race.

so we should start a new thread, or at least make this topic relevant to unions.
 
OO,

VWFringe

Naruto Fan
OO, I've been thinking of you these past days...what do you think about what is happening now?

I know you wanted me to keep an open mind about Gov Walker's motives, perhaps just to see that I keep my sanity or don't get too worked up, but I have to ask, what's your take at this point...do you believe it is party-related agenda, or just a man who believes there is a better way?

"Drive it like you stole it," just seems to apply too well.

i threw in the comment about "climate change" because it is a hotly debated point, for no good reason other than to mis-lead and marginalize the public. (I started watching Noam Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent" documentary...he's more mistrusting of the popular media than I am.)
 
VWFringe,
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