Egypt could fall..........

The truth is America has tacitly been supporting dictators in Egypt (and elsewhere) increasingly since WWII. America has been caught in the headlights because no one knows the outcome of the Egyptian uprising. For now all Obama can do is tap dance. Everyone knows the truth about the Middle East -- something in the water makes you want to annihilate your neighbors -- next door and over the border!

the rock fights i've been watching on democracy now. org and al jazeera english make it look like their Army was planning to clear the square by force, the way they went after the human rights groups and reporters...they, the reporters, were saying the army was preparing to do something they didn't want the rest of the world to see.

i think, if Noam Chomsky's right about the script being followed by the US, that that was the point the US decided they couldn't support him any longer, that that was when we switched sides.

So, the argument that's interesting to me is the one urging the United States to re-examing it's foreign policy that lead us to this point...i think they mean the international bank and the US policy for stability over democratic forms of government.

it points to the idea that no matter what happens we're going to be pulling strings...they'll end up with another dictator appointed by the generals. Sad, that we come from cloth of revolutionaries, but have no tollerance for others, preferring instead to demonize their populations to muster support for the status quo (look up "manufactured consent" on wikipedia).

Fox and the rest do not believe a well informed public leads to good democracy.

they prefer to ignore the concept of blowback, in favor of the ring stability has. dumb.


I cannot imagine what being forced to live under a dictator is like, but enough of the rest of the world does, and knows they're living like that because of the US...can you spell blow-back? We need to take our licks and get the fuck out of their lives. They're adults, and from what i've heard from reporters on the streets of Cairo, they're also very politically aware. Amazingly they don't really bear us ill-will, seeing the people of the US as nice, but seeing our government as "wanting everything."

the muslim brotherhood is a minority group in Eqypt, they're not like Iran. This is a people's movement, but we know that doesn't mean it won't get high-jacked, but it's not going to turn to Islam...that's just the PR engine trying to scare us.

Democracy Now had been following the Tunisia revolt, and it looked to me at that time, that it was to be a domino, not a one time thing. This is the facebook generation, and they;ve been paying attention to the wikileaks revelations...not like us who are afraid to read them. Of course, they already knew, but they're getting the message now that it CAN work. Interesting that the US popular media downplayed the labor movements - you can bet if it had been a Muslim revolt it would have bumped a lot of local stories, the perfect chance to re-demonize the Arab world, but labor movements that work...can't show that on US television these days.

I honestly believe its the end of an era -- the clandestine era. This is the information age but America still has a 20th century mentality. The toothpaste is out of the tube! Our days of propping up dictators are numbered.

Pappy said:

I honestly believe its the end of an era -- the clandestine era. This is the information age but America still has a 20th century mentality. The toothpaste is out of the tube! Our days of propping up dictators are numbered.

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It's kind of ironic, huh? We preach to the world that all we really want is for Democracy to spread. Well, I guess it comes back to that old saying, "Be careful what you wish for".

VWFringe said:

the muslim brotherhood is a minority group in Eqypt, they're not like Iran. This is a people's movement, but we know that doesn't mean it won't get high-jacked, but it's not going to turn to Islam...that's just the PR engine trying to scare us.

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Yes. From everything I have heard and read, they are a peace promoting group and not some fringe, extremist Islamic group Like the corporate American media is telling everyone.

http://www.zcommunications.org/this...-uprising-that-i-can-remember-by-noam-chomsky

Chomsky on Democracy Now discussing the Middle East.

I just saw a horrible video on TV. It was what they identified as a US Embassy van, which they said up to 20 US embassy vehicles were stolen. The van was driving between a crowd at high speeds and then started to drive into the crowd running over many protesters.

I won't post a link to the video here, but if you want to find it you won't have a hard time. Really, really fucked up.

I'm not from the US, but what I'm missing in the media coverage of this event is the fact that all of the dictators (Egypt, Saoudi Arabia, Libie enz) have all been allies of the western world (read US) and have been ruling there because of support from the western world.
I know this, but many people don't, which gives the wrong impression that we actually want this revolution to succeed. The western world doesn't care about the people in Egypt, they care about what kind of puppet government can we place there next.
It's f*cked up world, and there are too few people who actually realize this.

Vapsofatso said:

The western world doesn't care about the people in Egypt, they care about what kind of puppet government can we place there next.

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If you're talking about western governments, then to a certain extent, I agree for they are, for the most part, always looking out for their self interest, but............if you are talking about the general populace of the western world, I don't believe that they view this any different then they do anywhere else. To suggest that we are not in total shock of some of the brutality leveled against the protesters is not accurate in the least.

I care about the people of Egypt as I would care about people anywhere, and maybe this is a bit nieve, but I also think that most of us, be it from the Western world or not, feel the same.

Governments, however, be they Western governments or not, will always, typically look out for their own best interest, and if supporting a dictator accomplishes that, so be it. But, it looks like supporting a dictator against the will of the people will, quite possibly, no longer be in our self interest.

btw, out of curiosity, do you consider the Netherlands part of the Western world?

Vapsofatso said:

what I'm missing in the media coverage of this event is the fact that all of the dictators (Egypt, Saoudi Arabia, Libie enz) have all been allies of the western world (read US) and have been ruling there because of support from the western world.

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that kind of plain talk just isn't allowed here. hahaha

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent

they only have al jazeera english in three localities here in the united states, is it an arab media blackout?

they grow us like mushrooms i believe, or at least the part of the population that only watches TV, like me.

lwien said:

btw, out of curiosity, do you consider the Netherlands part of the Western world?

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Yes the Netherlands is part of the Western world, we follow the US everywhere they go, like a loyal dog.

Ofcourse I'm talking about governments, nobody can say generalised things about a whole population.
However I get the feeling that a lot of the US-citizens and also Dutch-citizens have no clue about the Geopolitical reasons of for instance, the ''anti-terrorist'' mission in Afghanistan.
I'm also not saying that these people are too stupid to understand or comprehend this, they are just not correctly informed by the mainstream-media.

Jimi Hendrix said:

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.

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Vapsofatso said:

Ofcourse I'm talking about governments, nobody can say generalised things about a whole population.

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But things are generalized about whole populations all the time, but thanks for clarifying where you're coming from.

Vapsofatso said:

....... they are just not correctly informed by the mainstream-media.

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God, I hate that term. I'm not familiar with how the news is distributed in the Netherlands, but here in the US, the only people that use that term in a negative connotation are right wing conservatives, but what is ironic is that Fox News, the most right winged conservative cable news station in the US just happens to be the biggest, most watched news program on cable. They have more viewers than all other news stations combined, and yet they refer to everyone else as "mainstream media".

From my point of view, people are not correctly informed because they watch and listen to ONLY those sources who happen to be in agreement with their own perspectives on things so what ends up happening is that one just gets reinforced and validated with what they previously thought.

That's why, even though I consider myself a liberal, I watch Fox News as well as other news sources with whom I don't share a common perspective. I need to challenge my beliefs so that I can learn and what I found was, that even though I STILL don't buy into 98% of what Fox News says, that other 2% has me questioning some of my previous conceptions, and that 2%, to me, is worth the price of admission.

So...........it's not the mainstream media that's the problem, for you can limit yourself by just exposing yourself to ANY one news source, be they mainstream or not.

lwien said:

So...........it's not the mainstream media that's the problem, for you can limit yourself by just exposing yourself to ANY one news source, be they mainstream or not.

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Ofcourse that's true, but some things must be reported by the mainstream-media, because they ARE the mainstream media, in the sense of, a lot of people inform thereselfs with the means of these programs.
They have a responsibility. You can't expect people to search the deepest basement of the internet just to get the important (!) news.

I would like to give you an example of this.
Andrew Maguire, exposes the biggest fraud in history, only a few of the mainstream-media picked up the story months later. Why is that?
This should be on the frontpage of every freakin newspaper, but instead it gets a small article on the internet months later. Haven't seen a thing of it in the newspaper or on tv in the Netherlands.
Thank god for the internet.

didnt read the entire thread. As someone that studies the region extensively, I will say that this is a volatile situation that could have a few different outcomes. Either way, with the economy on the rebound I hope that the Suez canal is not interupted as almost 10% of the worlds trade goes through it.

I thought id share this with anyone interested though.

http://www.disinfo.com/2011/02/real-democratic-revolution-vs-fake-democratic-revolution/

i'm force feeding myself documentaries while unemployed, it feeds my anger over the loss of the job, haha...

i watched Out Foxed, and now, if i know it's one of ruppert's rags, i got nooo use for it whatsoever...i already know i'll catch the echoes of whatever they say all over the place, they're very effective at getting accross their point.

lol

scary, i remember when these media deals were going down, and the deregulation, but i thought it - I mean you think a Company is going to do Company stuff, not some Mission From God bull-shit to front for dumb or dumber (my pet names for the Dem's and the Republican'a) and actually mis-lead us to slow down important reforms.

anyone remember FreeJack? i think that's where we're headed. hahahaa

Watching Mubark speaking now. This is not going to turn out well. My thoughts and prayers go out to all those young Egyptians who may loose their lives in the next few hours. I shed a tear for you.

And to Mubark. You're a fucking old man who doesn't have a fucking clue.

Man, talk about being delusional.

i just read a headline saying he was stepping down.

My only concern is that there doenst seem to be any organization behind these demostrations. There doenst seem to be any type of leadership behind it that can be put into power.

30 minutes ago, I listened to his speech to the Egyptian people. He is NOT stepping down.

Everyone thought that he would. He did not.

ahhh my site lied to me. I dont quite understand Mubarak. I hope he does the right thing soon.

caseball2051 said:

ahhh my site lied to me. I dont quite understand Mubarak. I hope he does the right thing soon.

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He already had a chance to do the right thing and he has chosen not to. If he didn't take this opportunity to step down, he's not going to and I fear that the military is going to eventually come down hard on the general population if things start spinning out of control, unless there is a coup to physically throw his ass out of the country. He will not leave on his own free will. That became painfully obvious about an hour ago.

The military has stayed neutral for the most part so far.

if he wont step down until after the election, I think that the demonstrators should find some leadership amongst themselves and put forth a real candidate to represent themselves. whos to say that the elections wont be fixed though?

its a real tough situation and Saudi Arabia isnt helping by puttin pressure on the US.

WOW !!!

Now the question is, where do they go from here but thats the question anytime something new is born.

Gratz to Egypt.

The Saudi Family, even the Iranian government has to be like............WTF ????

he gave power to the military. theyve been pretty level headed about everything so far. Wonder what happens next. I really hope the brotherhood doenst try to fill the power vaccuum.

Unless you was a pro Mubarak person, like being a cop or associated with them, this is a great day to be Egyptian.

My next vape is in Egypt's Honor. I hope they do well with it!

Man, talk about a street party.