Vegetarians and Vegans

...wow now freedom is making the world worse...

just_the_flu said:

...wow now freedom is making the world worse...

Click to expand...

It depends what you mean by freedom.
Freedom without ethics is not freedom.
It's the worst prison.

Accept said:

See, @OldNewbie wasn't holding out on us. Started with the reference above because of the title. It's quite good, IMO, basically agree. Encourage vegetarians to read it. That's why the argument in an above post focuses not on animals' alleged rights, but on ours. Specifically, what right do we have to claim animals are our property?

From the article:



Is there anything else in the above references on property/exploitation arguments?

Click to expand...

The links were for the specific claim I made, "Some even claim more animals would be killed in the latter. (Not more in mass, more in number.)" Part of that was choosing more of the sciency-type items from multiple sources and included pro-vegan ones. There are TONS of vegan-written articles/arguments regarding the difficult question of exploitation and the limits of what is meant by the particular segment of the vegan dogma supported. Some have no problem if there is not a nervous system so can't feel pain. Some have no problem on slavery of bees because they are going to do what they do already. Some describe a scale no one is perfect on and encourage the reader to move towards the no...all the vegan things...side of the scale while recognizing no path completely reduces suffering.

All can choose whatever arguments they find important. But, it is hard to really follow all the threads of discussion interwoven here and did not intend to link for any other purpose than the limited one.
----------

On a practicality note, let me tell a story. (Not that anyone asked. It's just mass veganism is different from a private choice by a relatively rich and educated person.) I remember, as a young man, having a job that brought me into other people's houses a lot. Not at some appointment time to be prepared for, but, when things happened that required my "services". One house still stands out and I use the story to illustrate a fact.

When I got to the house and was talking with the mother, I noticed a kitchen filled with half-eaten left out food and a sink that was full of unwashed dishes. There was that sour smell of spoiled food and unwashed bodies that permeated the apartment. A child walked in, hungry, and whined at his mother for some food. In exasperation, she looked around and found a plate in the sink with food on it and told the boy, "Your sister didn't eat all hers last night. You take it." (It shouldn't be in quotes, but, essentially this was food from last night that had been sitting in the sink for at least 18 hours--depending on what time it was served.) The boy took the food and started eating it.

Some don't even have a firm grasp on germ theory. How much effort will it be to teach, show or whatever, to make sure neural development is not harmed in vegan children throughout the social strata of society?

OldNewbie said:

The links were for the specific claim I made, "Some even claim more animals would be killed in the latter. (Not more in mass, more in number.)" Part of that was choosing more of the sciency-type items from multiple sources and included pro-vegan ones. There are TONS of vegan-written articles/arguments regarding the difficult question of exploitation and the limits of what is meant by the particular segment of the vegan dogma supported.

Click to expand...

Fair enough. Personally, agree only with the general exploitation argument - in at least some cases, owning animals and breeding them for lives of exploitation is likely wrong. It's at least a genuinely "difficult question", if we're to be consistent with our thoughts on the subject as it applies to humans. It's understandable that it concerns some of us. Once again, civil discourse reveals common ground. Imagine that.

Regarding those vegan-written arguments, recommend looking up Gary Francione, Distinguished Professor of Law and Scholar of Law & Philosophy at Rutgers. Don't have an accessible reference in mind at the moment.

OldNewbie said:

Some don't even have a firm grasp on germ theory. How much effort will it be to teach, show or whatever, to make sure neural development is not harmed in vegan children throughout the social strata of society?

Click to expand...

Are there references above addressing this concern as well - that vegan children might sometimes show neurological deficits? It's a hypothesis that's plausible enough to want to test scientifically, but unaware of any specific evidence. Even if there is, it might be the case that such deficits can be easily remedied with careful choices or supplementation, without reintroducing animal foods. Suspect many vegan parents would be supportive of such research. Know a number of happy, healthy vegan children (and none who aren't), but such evidence is anecdotal, based on a small, biased sample.

Accept said:

Are there references above addressing this concern as well - that vegan children might sometimes show neurological deficits? It's a hypothesis that's plausible enough to want to test scientifically, but unaware of any specific evidence. Even if there is, it might be the case that such deficits can be easily remedied with careful choices or supplementation, without reintroducing animal foods. Suspect many vegan parents would be supportive of such research. Know a number of happy, healthy vegan children (and none who aren't), but such evidence is anecdotal, based on a small, biased sample.

Click to expand...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25076673
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2912628/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3137939/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19748244
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3948463
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18293883
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12816782

OldNewbie said:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2912628/...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19748244

Click to expand...

Thanks, these are all pretty similar. Most are case studies, which while not as helpful as well-designed epidemiological studies, still provide value. Reproduced two abstracts below as representative.

Again, agree completely. Such information should be communicated to prospective parents whenever cultural practices raise concern for children.

A well-balanced vegetarian diet can provide for the needs of children and adolescents. However, appropriate caloric intake should be ensured and growth monitored. Particular attention should be paid to adequate protein intake and sources of essential fatty acids, iron, zinc, calcium, and vitamins B12 and D. Supplementation may be required in cases of strict vegetarian diets with no intake of any animal products. Pregnant and nursing mothers should also be appropriately advised to ensure that the nutritional needs of the fetus and infant are adequately met. Recommendations are provided. Adolescents on restricted vegetarian or other such diets should be screened for eating disorders.

Click to expand...

We report on the case of an infant who was hospitalized because of failure to thrive, megaloblastic anemia, and delayed psychomotor development. He was 10 months old and had been exclusively breast-fed by his vegan mother. Investigations showed vitamin B(12) deficiency with hematocytopenia and pervasive developmental disorders as well as vitamin K and vitamin D deficiencies. The infant's mother presented the same deficiencies. Introduction of vitamin supplementation normalized the biological disorders, and the infant showed weight gain and neurological improvement. This case highlights that a vegan diet during pregnancy followed by exclusive breast-feeding can induce nutritional deficiencies in the newborn, with clinical consequences. Detecting mother and child vitamin deficiencies and preventing them is essential.

Click to expand...

Accept said:

Thanks, these are all pretty similar. Most are case studies, which while not as helpful as well-designed epidemiological studies, still provide value. Reproduced two abstracts below as representative.

Again, agree completely. Such information should be communicated to prospective parents whenever cultural practices raise concern for children.

Click to expand...

I believe @TiSteamo mentioned the issue tangentially when he was writing of his child in the other thread:
I note he was talking of a vegetarian diet and not a vegan one.

@OldNewbie I think that things must be done properly. You can't improvise, especially when it comes to health!

TiSteamo said:

And are pornstars virgin?

Click to expand...

Do we define virginity as never had a lingam in her yoni? If so girls that are exclusively BJ/anal/solo or girls only could be.

hard to believe.

Imagine we can all use some hot veg porn after that exchange.



Sexy or freaky? Or simply breakfast?

Accept said:

Imagine we can all use some hot veg porn after that exchange.

Sexy or freaky? Or simply breakfast?

Click to expand...

There are a LOT more "heirloom"-type tomatoes out there now. The difference between one of them and the normal ones purchased is substantial and well worth the cost. But, what changed? Is it just the fact stores will treat the higher-priced item with more care, thus allowing more to be available? Or, have they done some gene engineering to make them more robust for transport? (For some, I'd add a third. The price made more local farmers take up the crop. For me, I'm close enough to farming areas to not have this be the key issue.)

OldNewbie said:

But, what changed? Is it just the fact stores will treat the higher-priced item with more care, thus allowing more to be available? Or, have they done some gene engineering to make them more robust for transport? (For some, I'd add a third. The price made more local farmers take up the crop. For me, I'm close enough to farming areas to not have this be the key issue.)

Click to expand...

This particular specimen was grown in a local hothouse. It cost twice as much as a tomato labeled as merely "organic". Understandable - it probably cost more to grow, and demand for such produce is relatively light. Reason that if all one eats is vegetables, may as well have fun with it and support sustainable farming practices at the same time.

There's certainly no need to resort to gene engineering. The markets for heirloom and GMO vegetables probably don't intersect at all, so it would be counterproductive from a business perspective. However, anyone who gardens from seeds naturally chooses seeds from those vegetables that most clearly display whichever traits the gardener desires. This is just the foundation of selective breeding, traditional genetics, which is perfectly capable of providing an infinite variety.

Addendum: In a certain frame of mind, this tomato image evokes all manner of sex acts. Every protuberance and crevice anyone could want. Good thing it's already been assimilated. Still, probably need to get out more.

Also, @OldNewbie, recall the grocer once had a similar tomato labeled as Mexican (they do their best to source locally, but sometimes make exceptions). Wondered the same thing at the time - how an heirloom tomato survived the trip.

It is horrible and inhumane to separate a puppy from its mother to slaughter and eat it.
They call it tradition.
I call it evil.



Killing him will not take away sins from the world.
Indeed, it will increase them.

Accept said:

Addendum: In a certain frame of mind, this tomato image evokes all manner of sex acts. Every protuberance and crevice anyone could want. Good thing it's already been assimilated. Still, probably need to get out more.

Also, @OldNewbie, recall the grocer once had a similar tomato labeled as Mexican (they do their best to source locally, but sometimes make exceptions). Wondered the same thing at the time - how an heirloom tomato survived the trip.

Click to expand...

Tomato porn is rapidly becoming an obsession. Might need its own thread.

So much more appetizing than the babes above. Believe Gary Francione said something like: gather together a baby, a bunny, and a head of lettuce - show me a baby who plays with the lettuce and eats the bunny.

Cursed is he who, with cunning, wounds and destroys God's creatures! Yes, cursed the hunters, because they will be hunted, and by the hands of unworthy men they will receive the same mercy that they have shown to their innocent preys, the same! "

Jesus of Nazareth

I'm curious about something I remember being mentioned earlier in this thread, and my question is just a question...not meant to start an argument or put anyone here down for agreeing or disagreeing.

Is the term "anti-natalist", as it's being used here, considered a derogative or a complimentary label?

TiSteamo said:

Cursed is he who, with cunning, wounds and destroys God's creatures! Yes, cursed the hunters, because they will be hunted, and by the hands of unworthy men they will receive the same mercy that they have shown to their innocent preys, the same! "

Jesus of Nazareth

Click to expand...

Is this from one of the apocryphal gospels? Don't remember such a strong statement in the major ones.

Ramahs said:

Is the term "anti-natalist", as it's being used here, considered a derogative or a complimentary label?

Click to expand...

You might have the wrong thread - believe that discussion was mainly in the "childbirth is ugly" thread. Antinatalist appears to be a label that people with this view accept, so maybe neutral? Happy to discuss more in the "hell in a hand-basket" thread which was intended to welcome such controversial topics.

Accept said:

Tomato porn is rapidly becoming an obsession. Might need its own thread.

So much more appetizing than the babes above. Believe Gary Francione said something like: gather together a baby, a bunny, and a head of lettuce - show me a baby who plays with the lettuce and eats the bunny.

Click to expand...

Huh always heard it as fruit (what we are biologically Made to eat) .like an apple. Not that I would not eat the lettuce but the apple would satisfy me in every way

Maninthemachine said:

Huh always heard it as fruit (what we are biologically Made to eat) .like an apple. Not that I would not eat the lettuce but the apple would satisfy me in every way

Click to expand...

You mean he stole that line?! Thought it was original and off the cuff. Another hero topples.

TiSteamo said:

Cursed is he who, with cunning, wounds and destroys God's creatures! Yes, cursed the hunters, because they will be hunted, and by the hands of unworthy men they will receive the same mercy that they have shown to their innocent preys, the same! "

Jesus of Nazareth

Click to expand...

Do you have a cite for that? Perhaps from the apocrypha? (Although, even there, I don't see it on a search. I certainly don't have all the translations so my search is pretty limited.)

It is taken from the Gospel of the Essenes.
In fact, I don't believe that Christ ate the lamb at the Last Supper.
Many translations are wrong.
Where there is talk of "meat", the exact translation was "food".

An enlightened, divine man who spent himself for the life of beings and for justice could never devour a lamb.

TiSteamo said:

It is taken from the Gospel of the Essenes.
In fact, I don't believe that Christ ate the lamb at the Last Supper.
Many translations are wrong.
Where there is talk of "meat", the exact translation was "food".

Click to expand...

Some vegetarians (and others) claim that Jesus may have been an Essene. Apparently, his teaching can be interpreted as being consistent with theirs. Even knew a couple who tried to live as Essenes.

Meat does NOT only mean animal flesh. It can also mean anything of substance, for example "the meat of the matter". We still call the edible part of nuts (like walnuts) "meat". Carol Adams, a vegetarian/feminist author has argued the point. In the US, there's currently a fight over whether manufacturers of some non-animal meat alternatives can label their products as "meat".

Accept said:

Some vegetarians (and others) claim that Jesus may have been an Essene. Apparently, his teaching can be interpreted as being consistent with theirs. Even knew a couple who tried to live as Essenes.

Meat does NOT only mean animal flesh. It can also mean anything of substance, for example "the meat of the matter". We still call the edible part of nuts (like walnuts) meat. Carol Adams, a vegetarian/feminist author has argued the point. In the US, there's currently a fight over whether manufacturers of some non-animal meat alternatives can label their products as "meat".

Click to expand...

This is true. And this is the meat we should be eating .apple hasApple has meat .Coconut. Pretty much anything haha