Divine Tribe atty's

KeroZen

Chronic vapaholic
What makes you come to that conclusion? I find they are the same as the joyetech/wismec/eleaf devices that all share the exact same chipset.

TC is crappy out of the box until you install a custom firmware.

Nowhere near what you get with SmoAnt, or Vaporesso devices for instance. And can't touch DNA boards.
 
KeroZen,
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fernand

Well-Known Member
There are several issues that make all our TC systems far from perfect.

One is how accurate the temp is, in other words does the display ever match the actual temperature. That requires calibration, and setting the TCR value for a good match. If you're calibrating using an IR gun, that's got its own issues, like setting the emissivity to match the surface you're reading. And that will even change, as the substance is melting. If you use a thermocouple, it's a bitch to mount. But if you get in the ball park on the readings, you find the match won't cover a wide temp range. You might be dead on at 350 deg F, and off by huge amounts at higher and lower values. The overall resistance change of an unknown heater assembly makes for a crude thermometer. And then, what is the display firmware showing?

Another factor is how well the control algorithm seeks and maintains temp. All control systems have to take into account the lag in effect and make changes gradually enough for the changes to take place and the feedback information (in this case the changing resistance of the heater) to be meaningful. The tradeoff is how fast you can seek target temp vs. how much you'll overshoot and have to keep correcting. This is e.g. where limiting the wattage during ascent is important. A lot of people don't care, they just want fast.

And finally, all the mechanical details, like how completely, and how fast, the temp of the heater is passed to the substance. You might achieve perfect control at the resistive heater, the donut, the coil, and get it improved with better firmware, but the substance usually doesn't see that directly. And temperature that the controller sees it is never even throughout the heater, all it sees is the average resistance of the heater wire. As vapor is pulled, cold air enters, and that cools the source. It's a very complicated system if you wanted to fully compensate for all these variables.

Given these issues, it's unrealistic to expect lab grade temp control in such a crude setup. I'm not sure it's worth tremendous expense or effort. As long as I can limit the temp to below say 440 deg F on hot vapes, or to below 380-400 for lower temp dabs, i'm alright. The Picos can do that out of the box with a little tweaking of the TCR and the ascent wattage limit -- and so can the eVics etc.

I've got SO many other things to tweak around here that I think I'll put off getting deeply into better firmware for my vape mods ;-)

Always interesting to read others' experience and views.
 
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KeroZen

Chronic vapaholic
Funny how I know from reading your other posts somewhere else that you know perfectly what a PID controller is, yet you make it sound here like you are entirely fine with the crudest form of control (i.e. full power on/off switching controller with no hysteresis and just a mere fixed time-out after overshoot)

Most good mod chipsets (including DNA, YiHi, Dicodes, HohmTech, SmoAnt, Vaporesso etc...) use some variant or another of PI(D) control out of the box and have excellent TC performance.

This is not the case with these joyetech/Wismec/eLeaf devices (at least those sharing the same chipset) Just do a very simple experiment: install any 510 RDA base on your device, with a simple coil of your choice and fire your mod using the stock TC implementation. Not only will you see the coil visibly alternate from glowing to not glowing, you'll also see that it doesn't even glow to the same color every-time it overshoots. It's terrible really.

As soon as you install myevic / tuboevic / sur_myevic or even bettter ArticFox and enable PI(D) regulation (perhaps with some adjustment of the parameters, I'll grant you that, it requires some tweaking because the stock values are for e-liquids) you'll see your coil stabilize to a very even glow, with no visible pulsing.

I agree with everything you said above, but it's not because it's a hard problem that you can afford to make it even worse. The performance of the system is the sum of all its components. So why start with a crappy control scheme to begin with, when with little effort (takes 10 minutes to download, flash and configure your device if that's your first time) you can build on a much more solid foundation?
 

fernand

Well-Known Member
BECAUSE MY HEAD IS ESPLODING, that's why. Not from PID or lack thereof, I've designed both analog and digital PID controllers for 150 horsepower motors, I know the op-amps, and I know the open-source PID libraries. But there's WAY too much other crap to worry about.

I'm just saying a stock Pico may not be brilliant, but it does "the job". When I have more time and brain to spare, I'll check out the AF bit. Of course anyone with the time and spare brain cells should do it as soon as they have a stable OS and have read a good book every week and have no serious illness in the family.

And that 10 minutes is impossible. Everything has a learning curve that's X times steeper and Y times longer than your most pessimistic estimate multiplied by 4. And that's not counting the bricked Playstations in the kids' closet.

Before you can use it, it takes hours of screwing with a new handbag or briefcase. Days of screwing with a new phone. Weeks with a new computer. Years with a new "partner". A lifetime with a new body. A lot to be said for staying put. Reincarnation? Nein, Danke!

Dude! I have a Yamaha sustain pedal. Have had it for years. A N.O. switch with a cable and a 1/4" Phone Plug. What can go wrong? Well, my 4 GB sampled Steinway piano died last night, no sustain. I blamed EVERYTHING else first. Software, OS, 88 controller, MIDI, jacks, and finally I got a meter and its the damned switch! How likely is THAT? Tell me about 10 minutes to install and use new firmware on anything "the first time", a toaster, a vibrator, and I'll show you it cannot be done.
 
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KeroZen

Chronic vapaholic
@fernand : one thing is sure, even when all is lost your sense of humor remains! :tup:

:lol:

PS: yes 10 minutes might be optimistic, especially if you don't have any windows PC... but really, it's not much more involved than configuring the stock TC mode. You set the max power, the temperature and the TCR exactly the same. Then the difference is that you can enable PI(D) mode on top of it, and it exposes these extra parameters. Now it's clear that properly tuning such a regulator can be a mission of its own, but surely other members in this thread have ready-made values to share for the DT gear?
 

OF

Well-Known Member
I'm just saying a stock Pico may not be brilliant, but it does "the job".

Excellent point. When I used to get paid to do so I really liked pointing out to the students (who were, of course, totally dependent on Digital meters with lots of precision and accuracy and calculators with lots of digits and dozens of functions they didn't know how to use) that we put men on the moon with slide rules, log tables, Simpson 360s (the 'standard' analog meter of the day with 5% accuracy......maybe) and a truly primitive computer you couldn't give away today.

There are more elegant tools, certainly more expensive, than Pico but it will indeed do the job simply and reliability from a vapor production POV.

What's the old saw about a Craftsman and his tools?

Nice to have choices in the market.

OF
 

divinetribe

We are trying our hardest to become Medical Grade
Manufacturer
hello FC people HAppy Saturday
the 6th proto of the v4 crucible is coming this week i hope, those pesky quartz cups have been hard to make and have been holding up the show, anyway hope all is good with the community, come visit me in Arcata anytime. I will do my best to show you around and share my medicine with you.
PEACE
 

looney2nz

Research Geek, Mad Scientist
hello FC people HAppy Saturday
the 6th proto of the v4 crucible is coming this week i hope, those pesky quartz cups have been hard to make and have been holding up the show, anyway hope all is good with the community, come visit me in Arcata anytime. I will do my best to show you around and share my medicine with you.
PEACE

BINGO!!!

if you own a QQ WATCH THIS!!!

small amounts go a long way, don't pull too hard or fast, check yourself in the mirror the first few times.
 

Bad Ocelot

Well-Known Member
Excellent point. When I used to get paid to do so I really liked pointing out to the students (who were, of course, totally dependent on Digital meters with lots of precision and accuracy and calculators with lots of digits and dozens of functions they didn't know how to use) that we put men on the moon with slide rules, log tables, Simpson 360s (the 'standard' analog meter of the day with 5% accuracy......maybe) and a truly primitive computer you couldn't give away today.

There are more elegant tools, certainly more expensive, than Pico but it will indeed do the job simply and reliability from a vapor production POV.

What's the old saw about a Craftsman and his tools?

Nice to have choices in the market.

OF

I'd been contemplating going with the new voopoo 2x18650 mod for the V4 but proceeding from this general train of thought I'm probably just gonna stick with an eleaf/joye/wismec & af because not only does it work more than sufficiently well, I've also been working with that interface for quite a while now.

This being said I do have a voopoo mod I use for nicotine & the pc app installed on my computer so who know's what'll happen in the end, ha.
 

OF

Well-Known Member
This being said I do have a voopoo mod I use for nicotine & the pc app installed on my computer so who know's what'll happen in the end, ha.

E-cigs change all the rules. Potentially more power, lots more sometimes. Much faster response, calling for tighter control. Different game.

We're using a slow system by comparison. Efficiency and control come easy, really. Nothing all that fancy. Sure there are a lot of hot cars out there but if the project is driving down and getting a six pack......a Honda or Toyota starts to make more sense?

Personal call, of course.

OF
 

21stCenturyVape

Well-Known Member
Hey, anyone have TCR/wattage temp control values for QQ v2 with grade 1 titanium 24 gauge coils as heaters?
 
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21stCenturyVape,
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OF

Well-Known Member
Hey, anyone have TCR/wattage temp control values for QQ v3 with titanium gauge 1 coils as heaters?

I sincerely doubt it. One gauge is a bit over 1/4 inch in diameter.........

I use 24 gauge myself, small enough to actually fit in the holes in the cup. Other, similar gauge would also work, it's a mechanical issue there.

I'm using 550 for m value and the same 45 Watts (not related to coil material......) many are. You can use less power, but it takes longer to get to temperature, eventually failing to ever get hot enough.

OF
 
OF,

looney2nz

Research Geek, Mad Scientist
I sincerely doubt it. One gauge is a bit over 1/4 inch in diameter.........

I use 24 gauge myself, small enough to actually fit in the holes in the cup. Other, similar gauge would also work, it's a mechanical issue there.

I'm using 550 for m value and the same 45 Watts (not related to coil material......) many are. You can use less power, but it takes longer to get to temperature, eventually failing to ever get hot enough.

OF

Wait, hold it a minute, I just caught something, the previous poster said 'QQv3', what is THAT? Mine is v2. I'm still running stock Joyetech firmware, waiting for nephew to bring a windows laptop over to flash everything to AF. I have my VTwo Mini setup at TCR=280, somewhere between 450-500F, 43.5W with the existing ceramic rods.
 
looney2nz,
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OF

Well-Known Member
Wait, hold it a minute, I just caught something, the previous poster said 'QQv3', what is THAT?

Another mistake, I suspect? He is confusing the new V3 (which uses a doughnut) with the QQ, which does not? He confused 'grade' and 'gauge' in the same post if I followed correctly.

Then again, it must be true......'I read it on the Internet'.

BTW, the new V3 (V3.5) is a great upgrade on the OG version IMO, check it out if you're inclined to such things? Much easier to load.

OF
 

21stCenturyVape

Well-Known Member
Another mistake, I suspect? He is confusing the new V3 (which uses a doughnut) with the QQ, which does not? He confused 'grade' and 'gauge' in the same post if I followed correctly.

Then again, it must be true......'I read it on the Internet'.

BTW, the new V3 (V3.5) is a great upgrade on the OG version IMO, check it out if you're inclined to such things? Much easier to load.

OF
Yes OF is correct, several mistakes in my post. Meant QQv2 and grade 1 titanium 24 gauge. Sorry about that... any temp control values for this setup?
 

OF

Well-Known Member
Yes OF is correct, several mistakes in my post. Meant QQv2 and grade 1 titanium 24 gauge. Sorry about that... any temp control values for this setup?

Gee, I thought I just gave that?
I'm using 550 for m value and the same 45 Watts (not related to coil material......) many are. You can use less power, but it takes longer to get to temperature, eventually failing to ever get hot enough.

OF
 
OF,

divinetribe

We are trying our hardest to become Medical Grade
Manufacturer
CYBER MONDAY thru the NEW YEAR
customers at www.ineedhemp.com

Please use the coupon code HOLLIDAZE on check out for 10% off your order, take a look at these discount links below that are available as well. Feel free to share these links with any of your friends or on social media.

Did you know we have a 14mm Hydratube that works great with every atomizer we sell, take a look at the Hydratube page here and use your discount code on checkout. thanks

matt

Discount links on my best selling atomizers below!!!!
JET STREAM Crossover WAX/ RDA $27.11
The Generation II DC Dry Herb Discount
Quartz Quest $36 link
v3 Ceramic Concentrate $27.10
v3.5 Discount link
 

tennisguru1

EXCELSIOR!
CYBER MONDAY thru the NEW YEAR
customers at www.ineedhemp.com

Please use the coupon code HOLLIDAZE on check out for 10% off your order, take a look at these discount links below that are available as well. Feel free to share these links with any of your friends or on social media.

Did you know we have a 14mm Hydratube that works great with every atomizer we sell, take a look at the Hydratube page here and use your discount code on checkout. thanks

matt

Discount links on my best selling atomizers below!!!!
JET STREAM Crossover WAX/ RDA $27.11
The Generation II DC Dry Herb Discount
Quartz Quest $36 link
v3 Ceramic Concentrate $27.10
v3.5 Discount link


https://www.reddit.com/r/Waxpen/comments/a24u12/dual_cule_jetstream_rda_x_2_molecules_thing_rips/
 
tennisguru1,

codyppc

Active Member
Ok, I am wanting to get back into the waxes and what not. Been on the pre filled carts only for way too long.

Question for the DT Group... is this QQ a good recommendation for someone who needs to conserve his medicine as much as they can?

I want to move from carts to wax, still stay semi stealthy, but not have to spend more money. This will get me the flavor I'm missing out on and more of the full spectrum.

If the QQ doesn't get the "Conserver's" Thumbs Up for approval, What do you recommend?

I have an old Pico that I've been using with the carts. I use to have the DT3.0 with 10mm and 13mm cups, but either was doing it all wrong, or something because I felt I was just blowing through material. It was probably was just me.

Thanks, Cody
 

OF

Well-Known Member
Question for the DT Group... is this QQ a good recommendation for someone who needs to conserve his medicine as much as they can?

I don't believe so. If you didn't like the consumption with V3 you're sure to not be happy with QQ which really only works well if you clean it completely each use and then charge it with a fair bit of concentrate for even modest production.

For my money, V2.5/7 is the call for economy. It can deliver impressive results, even with 'smaller clouds', with top up loads in the .03 gram range. And it's plenty cheap......

And, unlike QQ, your Pico should work just fine with it.

OF
 
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