Arizer ArGo

@OF Thank you for the elaborated response! that's exactly what I wanted to know.

Also I'd wanted to ask, could anyone link us to a replaceable battery for the Argo? Preferably with international shipping

OF said:

I don't follow the question. The Amp Hour rating is 3.4 (3400 mAh), with 3350 typcial for new ones, 3200 guaranteed. The maximum current rating (not that we use the maximum here) is something like six Amps, 12 Amps in a few second pulse (followed by cooling).

If I guessed wrong about what current you're talking about, please try rephrasing the question? Otherwise, perhaps you can find it on the Maker's data sheet?

http://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/NCR18650B.pdf

OF

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@whateverman
All you have to do is look for the battery from the quoted post

horst said:

Thanks for these details. But this starts me wondering why the manufacturers leave these noteworthy circumstances to the user?

So as a Tesla Engineer I would scratch my head for what it's worth to give out such recommendations instead of changing firmware to do this automatically for their customers satisfaction.

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Of course they could. And the guys that make the 'standard' charge controller 'chips' could modify them so they 'shot' for lower voltages than the typical 4.20 (plus or minus .05) Volts. But that means less 'sessions per charge' (lost sales due to 'less attractive numbers') and of course less battery packs/vape replacements down the road?

In fact, our Military often specifies 'mil spec' charging sometimes (like in radios that would otherwise need battery replacements in the field). IIRC the standard there is 3.95 Volts instead so charging ends at 3.90 to 4.00 Volts. They know what they're doing I think, despite the tendency to buy $10,000 hammers and such from time to time, they're swapping more shorter run times (more recharges) against years of service life between replacements.

I suspect Tesla is just more 'up front' with advice since the battery replacement is so expensive? We know from out recent experience with iPhone that not giving options to consumers is not wise?

whateverman said:

@OF Thank you for the elaborated response! that's exactly what I wanted to know.

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You're very welcome. It's precisely for that reason (one, or a most a few of the readers really want/need/can understand the fine points) that I ramble on so so often.

Glad you found it useful, thanks very much for the comment.

OF

OF said:

Generally considered good advice for this class of 'batteries'. Important to fully charge (many sources recommend 'overcharging' several hours after charging stops) before the first serious discharge (heating), this determines the maximum capacity ever, it will only go down from there throughout it's useful lifespan.

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While I still continue giving this same recommendation, I stumbled on a test (I think it was from mooch) that seemed to indicate that there was no *apparent* difference when skipping that first conditioning step.

His tests showed no difference in capacity for the subsequent cycles. But, and that's the part I cling to, he didn't exclude that there could be microscopic-level differences inside the cell that could lead to differences in long-term reliability (I'm thinking for instance, increasing the chance of dendrites formation later on down the battery life or other subtle changes we don't fully understand yet)

horst said:

Thanks for these details. But this starts me wondering why the manufacturers leave these noteworthy circumstances to the user? As a manufacturer it should be an easy task to stop charging a cell at 90% and shut off a device at 10%. This should make the battery handling a lot easier for the users and improve device reliability, espacially for the devices with built in batteries.

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Some do already. Nearly all my chargers have different cutoff points. Some charge very close to the nominal 4.2V while some leave the cell resting closer to 4.1V. I even have a couple faulty ones which go over 4.2, close to 4.3, which is clearly bad and border-line dangerous.

Going the other way down, and just looking at my mod boxes, my Joyetech units cut close to 3.1V, squeezing possibly the last drop of juice out of the cell, while my SmoAnt box cuts at 3.4V (resting voltage that is)

As @OF said it can easily be done (often just a resistance to change on the PCB for the charging case) it just depends what the manufacturer wants. For most, it's a selling point to claim that your device has a longer battery life than your competitors, even if it means being harder on the cell under the hood.

---

Back to the ArGo, I'm a bit underwhelmed by what I saw on the teardown pictures... Direct contact with a (most probably) PEEK sleeve without insulation, various silicone parts, and the worst: am I seeing right? Is that a dab of silicone bonding glue (yellowish-whitish blob) on that picture, holding the temp sensor wires in place?



That's exactly the same crap they put in the awful FowerMate 8 prototype I tested back then, then in the Elo test unit, then in the VapeDynamics Duo... All 3 units were cancelled pretty fast after entering production, as apparently I was not the only one to complain about the awful smell this damn glue has when it gets hot.

I guess none of you guys smelled or tasted anything off? It's fun how the same teardown of any Chinese vape would have had every-body screaming how unsafe it surely is, but when it's Arizer (or say S&B using the same plastics etc) you all seem to give them more slack.

I"m really not impressed, and talking about Chinese vapes, I've seen recent teardowns showing that they often did better jobs at really insulating everything from the air+vapor paths. But I'm nitpicking, as always...

KeroZen said:

While I still continue giving this same recommendation, I stumbled on a test (I think it was from mooch) that seemed to indicate that there was no *apparent* difference when skipping that first conditioning step.

His tests showed no difference in capacity for the subsequent cycles. But, and that's the part I cling to, he didn't exclude that there could be microscopic-level differences inside the cell that could lead to differences in long-term reliability (I'm thinking for instance, increasing the chance of dendrites formation later on down the battery life or other subtle changes we don't fully understand yet)

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That, I think, is the key. You're not going to see an effect 'up front' that's very significant. It just 'shifts the curve' a bit so that every incremental degradation comes sooner, and the 18650 dies (whatever you decide end of useful life is) all the sooner (as counted in cycles). Like not being 'good' with oil changes in your car, it's likely to be a long time before the effect shows up and by then will likely be no longer associated? Makers and guys that know a whole lot more than I do recommend it for what seems to me sound reasons, I pass it along in the same light.

Chicken Soup! "Can't hurt, might help"?

Notice what Orbtronic (IMO a top notch supplier) says about this specific cell:
https://www.orbtronic.com/batteries-chargers/panasonic-3400mah-18650-li-ion-battery-cell-ncr18650b

"Important:

• Never completely discharge li-ion battery ( below 2.5V under load ).
  
• Charge fully to 4.2V before first use."

No doubt 'boilerplate' but IMO important points. WRT to the low point, note it's "under load" that is important since the voltage 'sags' under load (for a host of reasons.....) so a reading before heating is not really useful.

It's also worth noting that while the upper limit is pretty fixed, the shape of the curve and the lower cutoff are not. For instance, with the specified NCR18650B here it's basically discharged at 3.5 Volts. A 3.1 or even 3.3 Volt setting would not be proper?
http://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/NCR18650B.pdf

This means, for our case, once it's down to 3.5 Volts (unloaded) there is no more useful charge left. Many (slightly different) 18650 would still have nearly half their stored energy left at that point (1/2 at 3.6 Volts being 'nominal')

Not all 18650s are the same..........much as some might like you to think? In a fun way we're using the same 18650s the electric car guys use (the Sonys are examples of the trade offs there), but when they make packs they seriously derate them, to something like half the ratings we count on?

Fun stuff.

OF

https://www.walmart.com/ip/2x-Ultra...1182&wl11=online&wl12=478626560&wl13=&veh=sem

These will work?

KeroZen said:

Back to the ArGo, I'm a bit underwhelmed by what I saw on the teardown pictures... Direct contact with a (most probably) PEEK sleeve without insulation, various silicone parts, and the worst: am I seeing right? Is that a dab of silicone bonding glue (yellowish-whitish blob) on that picture, holding the temp sensor wires in place?

That's exactly the same crap they put in the awful FowerMate 8 prototype I tested back then, then in the Elo test unit, then in the VapeDynamics Duo... All 3 units were cancelled pretty fast after entering production, as apparently I was not the only one to complain about the awful smell this damn glue has when it gets hot.

I guess none of you guys smelled or tasted anything off? It's fun how the same teardown of any Chinese vape would have had every-body screaming how unsafe it surely is, but when it's Arizer (or say S&B using the same plastics etc) you all seem to give them more slack.

I"m really not impressed, and talking about Chinese vapes, I've seen recent teardowns showing that they often did better jobs at really insulating everything from the air+vapor paths. But I'm nitpicking, as always...

Click to expand...

anything we should worry about?

530rasta said:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/2x-Ultra...1182&wl11=online&wl12=478626560&wl13=&veh=sem

These will work?

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They should work, but almost surely not very well. At least they should be able to supply the needed power to eventually 'make temperature' if only for a short while. Unless they are different from the '3000mAh Ultrafires' I bought a while back from Amazon (look the same.....) they aren't even close to claimed ratings. Mine tested just under half that IIRC. And failed big time to heat Cera properly (which is a higher power demand that ArGo, but not by a lot).

There's a glib saying in some (IMO informed) circles, "Avoid any battery with 'fire' in the name". There are several low quality Chinese brands with 'fire' in the name, none known to be worth recommending.

The price alone should be a tip off, then consider the source......Walmart isn't a top rated vendor of top of the line stuff like say Orbitronic or Lighthound? Their reputation is more in the 'dirt cheap' end of things?

You only need one or two, don't crimp, you can get the real deal for less than ten bucks..........

OF

530rasta said:

anything we should worry about?

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I think I'll exasperate the mods at some point by starting my posts with "we're not allowed to discuss materials safety in the device threads" then proceed with talking precisely about safety... lol

I honestly think that Arizer engineers know what they do. None of the materials used should be seeing temperatures outside of their specified safe use-range, ratings are respected etc.

These materials are deemed safe and most-probably food grade (or even medical grade) There's no known problem identified yet (apart from possible leaching of plasticizers and/or non-polymerized monomers from the resins, but without knowing the precise plastic formulations we have strictly no idea what they contain or not) That doesn't exclude that someone might prove at some point that we were wrong, but until then...

My only concern, and it's personal, is regarding smell and the hyper sensitivity to silicone in general. I can smell it when most people don't. But I'm not alone, see the Ghost MV1 thread: nearly all users had absolutely no problem with the silicone everywhere in the air / vapor paths (even claiming it was not in the path, until some user posted pictures of completely gooey silicone covered in reclaim), yet a small minority could detect the smell.

For the ArGo I don't see much more silicone than in the FlowerMate 5 Min-Pro. Build is similar with the sleeved heater and probe wires passing right under the heater. Yet I always found that the Mini Pro had a worse taste than the 5-S and 5-Pro and the only difference I can see is some piece of clear silicone directly in contact with the bottom of the heater.

Bah, don't worry. ArGo is surely fine. It's just me. I wish we would have a material with similar properties like silicone but that was not a plastic, but it's easier said than done, hence why they are tempted to use it, for joints, interfaces etc it's wonderful, you can mold it any shape you want pretty easily. It's just that very often it has a smell of its own, and as the vape connoisseur (purists some would say) that we (or at least I) can be, we like to nitpick over these kind of details... But it's good, the quest for the Holy Grail is never ending, so we still need to hang around in here!

@KeroZen you are raising valid concerns. Should we contact Arizer ?

Edit: i confused the username

@whateverman, @KeroZen is always looking out for us and carefully reviewing MSDS sheets. There is little to no regulation for the vape business and as such having people like Ken around is a huge value add to being part of a community like FC. That said, I am sure Arizer is very in tune with what they are producing and the potential material concerns.. in other words we do not need to let them know. Repspect! YaMon

YaMon said:

That said, I am sure Arizer is very in tune with what they are producing and the potential material concerns.. in other words we do not need to let them know. Repspect! YaMon

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Amen. IMO Arizer is 'the last one we should worry about'. Well, maybe not last, but for sure they are 'paying attention' to us, witness the attempt to seal the vapor path here?

Anyway as KZ said, such 'material safety' discussions are off topic in individual threads we're told. They do tend to 'go round and round' as they call on sincerely held beliefs? And tend to subjective 'proof'. I think this is the approved place to raise such issues:
http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/safety-of-vape-components.24804/

FWIW I just tested my ArGo again a bit ago. Happy to report it still works just fine, even on 'half a stem' (domed screen). It's happily recharging now, 1000mAh in, about half way done. Then I'll have to decide on which strain is next......... Decisions, decisions.

Regards to all.

OF

Argo landed today. Giving it a full charge, plus a little more

I'll post up my review in a few days after some use. I plan on really using this thing heavy, I had a Solo that lasted me from 2011 to 2014, I used it every single day multiple times a day and it never skipped a beat. Towards the end the charge wouldn't keep that long, but other than that it worked like a champ. Looking forward to having the Argo for a while as well.

@whateverman: @OF and @YaMon spared me having to answer. Please read carefully what I wrote: there is absolutely no evidence that there is anything of concern. Arizer is not a bunch of friends hacking away in their garage, they know what they are doing.

Plus if there's anything wrong, it means nearly all conduction vapes are problematic too, as they tend to use the same plastics (POM, PEEK, silicone)

And so far nobody reported any off-taste, so I'm purely speculating on what I might detect if I had one. But that alleged dab of silicone bonding glue (if it's really what I think it is) could have been avoided easily, as it seems to be there just to ease assembly (once the heater sleeve is in place there's probably no need to hold the wires anymore)

Does this thing produce good clouds like a crafty/mighty? I am definitely interested.
What are the heat up times like?
Say to 185c
Thanks!

Well...here's my review of the Argo after using it for about a week. I'll try to be breif and not repeat too much info that's already been shared in this thread.

I should preface this post by saing I am not new to vaporizing. 20 years ago we were using a heat gun and a bong and getting beyond ripped off A+ grade medical club cannabis from bay area dispensaries, while trying to graduate high school and not worry about y2k ect...lol. My first Arizer product was the SOLO about 2011 i think, it lasted me everyday use for multiple years. My last portable vape was the Pax 2, which i am a fan of.

So when looking at the argo i was hoping it would fall somewhere in between the SOLO and the pax2 in ease of use, portability, and vapor production.

Ease of use- This thing is very easy to use, just like most Arizer products. Simple and straight forward, no frills no thrills. It feels solid and quality, except for the pop up plastic glass tube protection, I honestly have left my down simply bc im worried i'll bump it while it's in the upright position and it wont go back down, or something to that effect. The small tubes are nice. The unit does get warm, in fact too warm for my liking. At 375f i had to turn off after a single session to let cool before i wanted to continue. You can hold it certain ways to avoid the heat but it's not ideal, imho.

Portability- It's very portable, obviously. A bit less than other however bc of the fact it does have a removable stem, and a stem plug if you choose as well. I thought it would keep a longer charge, but Ive been able to get about 6 sessions off one charge of the battery. I was careful to charge the unit completely before use. The Argo does take some time to charge, longer than the pax iirc, and it does seem longer than the SOLO but i could be wrong. Heat up times are fast, faster than the SOLO, it probably takes less than 30 secs to reach 375f.

Vapor Production- This is where I'm a bit let down by the Argo. I was expecting it to compare to the Pax2 in terms of vapor and such, but it really doesn't. You can't just put a few tiny nugs in the stem and start puffing, i mean you can but it won't produce much more than a few weak, lackluster hits that are more annoying than satisfying. I have found the only way to get even just ok clouds off this unit it to use as dry of flowers as you can, and to grind them up pretty fine. Do not pack the stem tight at all! it needs to just be in there softly, maybe push in the first few micro centimeters just to avoid flowers against the heater. Only then will you achieve decent vapor imo, unfortunately it's about 4 hits, then the production drops off and its just hot air again.

So long story short this isn't really for me. Im sure it works great for some folks wants and needs, but I'll probably be listing this in the classifieds section here once i can take some pics, i'll post it for a great price. Might try to find a solo2.

Yay!
I finally got around to using it, I bought one for my sister and she loves it, so we finally met for 2 days in a row and I had a chance to use it.

I love it!
The good :
1. Form factor - The design is just spot on, the glass stem fits superbly, and the argo looks great.
2. Ease of use - I don't think this needs any explanation, its pretty much covered, however, countering @530rasta , I did not have any issues only the argo after a session, I vape at 190-195c and bump it to 200-205.
3. heat up time - i got used to the ultra fast solo 2, so this is my only "let down" - its not really tho, so it take a few more seconds to warm up, i don't mind it.
4. As for vapor production - I think its pretty much on par with Solo/Air, I guess perhaps a little bit less, once again, @530rasta I don't really agree here, I think its up to the grind and the herb itself.
These products are more for "sipping" rather than producing big clouds, however, when I put my AAA herb, it vaped for a while, it didn't stop.
5. rubber/metal/whatever is used - I love it! I don't mind the fact that some is rubber and I think that the argo might be hotter than solo/air, it is still not hot enough to hold! and I used it for 20-30 straight.

I'll join with my own initial review.

I got the Argo today and only used it twice. I charged it until 100% and did 3 burn offs, 2 without a stem and 1 with a stem.

The build quality is excellent, and the device is very easy to use.
The device can get to hot to touch. If I were to pass it to another person I should warn them about the heat or you'll hear an "Ouch!"

The Argo provides smooth vapor, yet the flavor and density of the Solo is none existent. The vapor is whispy and thin, and does not provide the same vapor quality as its older, bigger brothers.

Further testing will be performed during the week. I will update with more info.

530rasta said:

Vapor Production- This is where I'm a bit let down by the Argo. I was expecting it to compare to the Pax2 in terms of vapor and such, but it really doesn't. You can't just put a few tiny nugs in the stem and start puffing, i mean you can but it won't produce much more than a few weak, lackluster hits that are more annoying than satisfying. I have found the only way to get even just ok clouds off this unit it to use as dry of flowers as you can, and to grind them up pretty fine. Do not pack the stem tight at all! it needs to just be in there softly, maybe push in the first few micro centimeters just to avoid flowers against the heater. Only then will you achieve decent vapor imo, unfortunately it's about 4 hits, then the production drops off and its just hot air again.

So long story short this isn't really for me. Im sure it works great for some folks wants and needs, but I'll probably be listing this in the classifieds section here once i can take some pics, i'll post it for a great price. Might try to find a solo2.

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The draw technique is a bit different between Pax and Arizer.

Pax is a nice soft sip, but you can keep taking sips as the oven has a boost mood taking the temp about 5° warmer than the temp setting. Of course if you give it a second between pulls clouds will be even bigger. Mostly conduction with a little convection.

Arizer is more of a thick milkshake. You take a nice long, slow pull and then give it a moment to heat soak before the next pull. Mostly a convection draw with some conduction (though glass isn't very efficient at transferring heat).

*This is not an opportunity to.open the thermal conductivity discussion again mostly just point the draw technique


I don't own an ArGo or a Pax 2. But I do have OG Solo, Solo II, and two Pax 3s.

JCharles said:

*This is not an opportunity to.open the thermal conductivity discussion again mostly just point the draw technique

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I sat down with the Solo 2, Air 2 and ArGo for a side-by-side and thought the sessions were almost identical. Same taste, clouds, and number of hits before the session started waning.

stickstones said:

I sat down with the Solo 2, Air 2 and ArGo for a side-by-side and thought the sessions were almost identical. Same taste, clouds, and number of hits before the session started waning.

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This.
As stated in my "1 hour review use review" - it did feel similar.
Looks like the Argo might need more time to build up a solid hit because its heats up slower and probably cools down faster.
Would you agree?

m0sh said:

This.
As stated in my "1 hour review use review" - it did feel similar.
Looks like the Argo might need more time to build up a solid hit because its heats up slower and probably cools down faster.
Would you agree?

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That's possible. I didn't notice that in my side-by-side. I did drop a temp probe in there and the profile was almost identical to the Air 2 profile with drops between hits that average about 50F once it's warmed up. Honestly, every test I run shows them all to work about the same. I've got an OG Solo and Air on the way that are the latest models so I can compare all five and do it with what people are getting off the shelves now. My OG units are old and don't have the recessed heat jets.

Hey everyone! I have decided i will be ordering one next week when i get paid :-) after reading through this thread i'm sold lol.
I currently have an air amongst others ;-) so this will be a nice addition to the collection! I will write a review once i get it. Happy vaping peeps. One Love!

After Bud makes his martini, he reviews the ArGo; I'm assuming just an initial review. Then after he reviews the Tera, he 'lightly' compares them.

Summer said:

After Bud makes his martini, he reviews the ArGo; I'm assuming just an initial review. Then after he reviews the Tera, he 'lightly' compares them.

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In what time does he compares them? I watched like an hour...