Discontinued Zion vaporizer

upriver · Sep 22, 2017

Farkas - What I would do is to simply use the unit as normal, but set it in a VERY safe location, like in a casserole or similar heat-proof dish on top of a trivet. Leave the unit alone for an hour or more and check on it. I would not leave it with batteries in over night until you have passed this test many, many times. I do believe (mostly) that fire is not a real danger but why take chances? My unit was hot enough that I have a first degree burn - I am still tender in the spot where I grabbed it. This is a really unfortunate defect. I am quite optimistic that it will be repaired/addressed, and is hopefully limited to the latest batches, but it is an unacceptable flaw. There is no point in having the batteries be internal to the unit if they must be removed after each use, and the very nature of the device means that forgetful lapses of judgement in terms of safety protocol are more-than-likely. As we all know, setting something down for "just a minute" in a Zionic state of mind could very well turn into much more than a minute, and in this case, that is simply not safe.

I sent mine back for service today. Painful after a 2+ year wait, but I refuse to use the device in that condition.

HD Springer · Sep 22, 2017

I watched Ryan on Instagram earlier today and he's been hard at it trying to get the same results that has been seen in 2 of the cases so far with the Zion running while setting idle. And it takes a few things to happen in order to duplicate them. Unfortunalty I was busy shooting pool so I missed a lot of it. Somthing about a hot/warm unit left idle with fresh batteries installed. Somthing about a bleed through or.....damn I wish I would of put the stick down to hear the rest. But I can vouch that the poor sob has been loosing sleep trying to figure shit out.
Still sucks for everyone involved.

Edit: sorry to hear about you already having to send it back @upriver. It would take everything I had to send it back.

Vapenvy · Sep 22, 2017

Farkas said:
Area in the corner by the stem (when inserted) was still a bit warm after a couple minutes. Will need to test further.

I have noticed that the unit gets quite hot in that corner near the heater, much hotter than the Mi it seems, and stays hot for a good while. I assume it's the coloured glass absorbing more heat, plus a slightly bigger heater. Maybe wait an hour or so to be sure of cool down before you check it.

Like @upriver recommendation, to 'test' for the issue i have been leaving the batteries in these last few days, but left the Zion on the large tile i use as the 'safety base' for all my chargers, in case there is an Issue. So far, no problem.

I have also been pushing the unit hard, trying to 'char', so it's getting hotter than usual... More on that later.

muunch · Sep 22, 2017

Well, glad I didn't get mine yet so all you brave souls can do this dangerous testing because I sure as hell am not leaving my batteries in anymore when mine comes in.

A slight dampener but I'm still pretty excited. I really hope he gets it worked out and I can only imagine how Ryan feels, as even I feel terrible for @Philreal187 and @upriver

upriver · Sep 23, 2017

To try to be clear, I have no bad feelings towards RBT. I chipped in early on, I have waited a real long time, and I will now wait longer for stuff to be addressed. It is all good! I hope my first experiences were conveyed correctly, if not, I LOVE THIS THING! I WANT TO KEEP ON ZIONING!

I simply do not agree that "you need to remove batteries after each use" is acceptable. This needs to be fixed. This is not inconvenience, this is safety.

No ill will towards the developer - I am still keen on this device. I understand a product having hiccups. I just really, really hope that this particular hiccup is addressed properly. Not because it effects my unit, but because this is a Real Problem.

Good luck to all on this path,

upriver

vapen00b · Sep 23, 2017

I know, it's not helping the root cause - but you could just flip one of the batts (+ to - it's got reverse polarity protection, so no worries) to prevent from scary ghost heatups . Ryan said that would work too. So you would still have everything together and not an extra battery to carry around...
Feel very sorry for everyone about this. Hope this helps!
:peace:

EDIT:

+++ BREAKING NEWS +++

Ryan found out the issue of the spontaneous ghost heatup. It's a rare condition and shows up in the first weeks of use. If the Zion sees heavy use, a resistor on the chip gets hot and the resistance increases. When Zi is hot from use and if you put fresh batteries in it, the combination will make it auto fire.
He is on it and lowering the resistor value and getting parts with even tighter tolerances to solve the issue. Next batch of harnesses from his supplier will have the fixes.

Ryan will get an email out with Zion manual, warranty and safety card.

KeroZen · Sep 23, 2017

Glad to hear it doesn't seem to be a sticking contact problem (even if that's still bad design) I hope Ryan will be able to pinpoint the issue. The OKR modules are electrostatic sensitive devices, maybe something along those lines damaged some chips... but if the new circuits were built by professionals it sounds a bit unlikely (one can expect they know what they are doing right?)

Farkas · Sep 23, 2017

Appreciate the tips, guys.

I continued testing this morning - the batteries were taken out last night for safety reasons. Before reinstalling them, I took baseline temp readings of all four sides of the unit using an infrared thermometer. They were consistent at 79 degrees. I reinstalled the batteries and did nothing else, dial at 6 o'clock (which is off, the way I was holding it). Waited about 30 minutes and repeated the temperature test. Same results, a steady 79. I then hit the button for about six seconds, no draw, with the dial at 12 o'clock. Temp check at that point rose to 94 measured at the approximate point where the female glass joint ends. I put the unit down, dial still set at 12 o'clock, and let it sit there for 15 minutes, cap off. Temp was 87. Waited another 15 minutes and the temp was 80.

I'll repeat the test again later to see if the findings above are confirmed, and then put a stem through her and try measuring again after more intense use to see if that triggers the problem. I'm not worried about the eventual fix, if mine needs it, although it is a bummer to have the issue affecting people.

HD Springer · Sep 23, 2017

Farkas said:
Appreciate the tips, guys.

I continued testing this morning - the batteries were taken out last night for safety reasons. Before reinstalling them, I took baseline temp readings of all four sides of the unit using an infrared thermometer. They were consistent at 79 degrees. I reinstalled the batteries and did nothing else, dial at 6 o'clock (which is off, the way I was holding it). Waited about 30 minutes and repeated the temperature test. Same results, a steady 79. I then hit the button for about six seconds, no draw, with the dial at 12 o'clock. Temp check at that point rose to 94 measured at the approximate point where the female glass joint ends. I put the unit down, dial still set at 12 o'clock, and let it sit there for 15 minutes, cap off. Temp was 87. Waited another 15 minutes and the temp was 80.

I'll repeat the test again later to see if the findings above are confirmed, and then put a stem through her and try measuring again after more intense use to see if that triggers the problem. I'm not worried about the eventual fix, if mine needs it, although it is a bummer to have the issue affecting people.

That all sounds just like what Ryan was saying @Farkas. It's the running of the unit at or near full power. Then having fresh or close to fresh batteries installed. Then you get the bleed through or what ever it's called and it heats on its own. I'm almost positive that's the only way Ryan could get the issue to duplicate itself.

If you could run a hot session then with fresh batteries in it then periodically check what your readings are. That would be cool to see what your experiences are.

P.A.M. · Sep 23, 2017

vapen00b said:
I know, it's not helping the root cause - but you could just flip one of the batts (+ to - it's got reverse polarity protection, so no worries) to prevent from scary ghost heatups . Ryan said that would work too. So you would still have everything together and not an extra battery to carry around...
Feel very sorry for everyone about this. Hope this helps!

EDIT:

+++ BREAKING NEWS +++

Ryan found out the issue of the spontaneous ghost heatup. It's a rare condition and shows up in the first weeks of use. If the Zion sees heavy use, a resistor on the chip gets hot and the resistance increases. When Zi is hot from use and if you put fresh batteries in it, the combination will make it auto fire.
He is on it and lowering the resistor value and getting parts with even tighter tolerances to solve the issue. Next batch of harnesses from his supplier will have the fixes.

Ryan will get an email out with Zion manual, warranty and safety card.

A mass warning email or recall should be in order IMHO. Maybe not all Zion owners is on FC, someone could be burning themself right now . Quite the safety hazard. 2 years plus plus in the making , one would think quality would upgrade , not diminish I guess he had found lower cost parts or other. If betA's worked great should have stuck to same parts and materials. Regardless hoping rbt takes responsible approach and sends a mass email to Zion owner ASAP before another user gets hurt! This is no joke . Own up man!!!!

rosedale · Sep 23, 2017

Does this issue apply to older units?

Melting Pot · Sep 23, 2017

Hey there FC
Haven't been around much but I figured I would share.
#90 checking in mine fucked up as well.
Installed fresh batts powered through a stem. Layed on it's back in entertainment center( tv cabinet)
Came back much later to use again opened cabinet and it smelled like a camp fire in the cabinet.
Unit stll works but the smell and taste are unbearable.
Haven't shipped back yet
The outside of the body is discolored from the heat. Only where heater is...
Not upset with Ryan at all, but it does suck. I hope to get a new body or a new unit not sure how this will play out.
Bummer, be safe keep an eye on them zions i would hate to hear someone having a fire.
Peace

AJS · Sep 23, 2017

P.A.M. said:
one would think quality would upgrade , not diminish I guess he had found lower cost parts or other. If betA's worked great should have stuck to same parts and materials. Regardless hoping rbt takes responsible approach and sends a mass email to Zion owner ASAP before another user gets hurt! This is no joke

It's one recent batch of resisters that weren't tune tight enough or something along those lines. He's sending out a mass E-Mail today or in the upcoming days. He has a fix for it, he found the issue, all within days of discovering the issue. He has tested a unit with the problem, implemented his fix, and couldn't recreate the issue. So...looks like it's solved or close to.

_____
Edit: ... it's coming.

AJS · Sep 23, 2017

AJS said:
It's one recent batch of resisters that weren't tune tight enough or something along those lines. He's sending out a mass E-Mail today or in the upcoming days. He has a fix for it, he found the issue, all within days of discovering the issue. He has tested a unit with the problem, implemented his fix, and couldn't recreate the issue. So...looks like it's solved or close to.

_____
Edit: ... it's coming.

I got it!!! can someone help me with which way the batteries go in..lol. I'm scared to try anything haha

cybrguy · Sep 23, 2017

Left is positive up. Right is positive down. Should be a plus woodburned inside the battery compartment.

AJS · Sep 23, 2017

cybrguy said:
Left is positive up. Right is positive down. Should be a plus woodburned inside the battery compartment.

THAT DID IT!!
Wow ... my max temp is like my super hot Milaana. Hits within seconds.
Lower temps still get there quickly while holding a fairly consistent temp .. exactly what I wanted.

Only taken a few rips but I can tell I'ma love her. Gunna find a good temp and get some videos for you guys!!!

KeroZen · Sep 23, 2017

In the light of the recent reports, I urge anyone having built (or planning to build, since I think I'm still the only one) a Zion Power Adapter to UNPLUG THE PSU AFTER EVERY USE.

With cells, you can severely char your wood at worst, but I don't think it could catch fire by itself (although the heat could cause flammable materials in contact or close proximity to ignite) It thankfully stops by itself when the cells are drained flat (and for those who had the problem, watch your cells closely from now on, as deep discharge past 2.5V can permanently damage them)

With the PA there's nothing to discharge, it will keep running at full power for an unlimited time, and the risk of setting your house ablaze are real. Log vapes are designed to stay plugged in all day long, the Zion never was. Better be safe than sorry guys!

Shit Snacks · Sep 23, 2017

AJS said:
THAT DID IT!!
Wow ... my max temp is like my super hot Milaana. Hits within seconds.
Lower temps still get there quickly while holding a fairly consistent temp .. exactly what I wanted.

Only taken a few rips but I can tell I'ma love her. Gunna find a good temp and get some videos for you guys!!!

And no photos, man Zion must be doing a number one you

saw your classic postman stalking pics on IG too lol Enjoy bud

cybrguy · Sep 23, 2017

KeroZen said:
In the light of the recent reports, I urge anyone having built (or planning to build, since I think I'm still the only one) a Zion Power Adapter to UNPLUG THE PSU AFTER EVERY USE.

I don't think we have any reason to believe that this is anything other than some bad chips or some chips that were improperly handled. I have had batteries installed in my (beta) Zion every day for over 2 years with no issue and I think others of us can say the same. Unless you just got your Zion in the last batch I doubt there is any problem with it, and there may well be no problem with some in the last batch, tho I would take precautions (be careful) with any Zion recently delivered.
That being said, YMMV.

Added: BTW, I just wanted to say that I am not minimizing this issue, it is important, could be dangerous, and must be resolved. I am just saying that it probably only applies to a small number of recently delivered Zions and is likely a fluke rather than a design flaw (other than possibly in the chip itself).

AJS · Sep 23, 2017

I did something stupid and I know there is a solution but I need someone to help me find the easiest one. lol..

The magnet popped out of it's slot in the detachable cap. I may have taken it off the zion oddly, not sure. Anyway, I pull the magnet from the zion and stuff it in the cap. In my stupidity .. I put it in backward. So now I can't get it out using the magnet on the zion because it's backwards lol.

I see 2 solutions...not sure if one is physically possible...
Is there a way to have a magnet pull it from the other direction? Or is that physically impossible with how magnets work...

Option 2 would be super glue something to the magnet to pull it out. Then use some glue remover (is that possible) to remove it from whatever item you used as a handle.

hmm..

Edit for Zion pics tho!!!:

cybrguy · Sep 23, 2017

AJS said:
Option 2 would be super glue something to the magnet to pull it out. Then use some glue remover (is that possible) to remove it from whatever item you used as a handle.

I think this is probably your best bet. Kind of an awkward problem. You might also ask Ryan cause he has probably had this happen while making Zions...

AJS · Sep 23, 2017

cybrguy said:
I think this is probably your best bet. Kind of an awkward problem. You might also ask Ryan cause he has probably had this happen while making Zions...

Pretty sure that'll work. Not sure why it wouldn't. I feel like I can walk into home depot and find a solution through the people there too. I'ma ask Ryan!

Edit: he said that should work. Didn't seem surprised when I mentioned what happened haha.
I guess someone needs to fuck up before this was bound to happen. Glad it'll most likely be solved by the end of the night!

Herbie Hancock · Sep 23, 2017

Received mine on Thursday while I was away for work at meetings. Just got it last night and have used it exclusively all day to get the hang of it. I love it. Very easy to use. Perhaps having the Milaana and tubo Evic helped the technique considerably. But I found very little learning curve to transition into the Zion. Granted, still working on the sweet spot etc... but no shortage of clouds and flavor. Battery life is so much better than the above mentioned units. Glad that so far I do not have that heating when off issue. More testing obviously...

P.A.M. · Sep 24, 2017

cybrguy said:
You might also ask Ryan cause he has probably had this happen while making Zions...

Drum roll! Hahah .. wish I could send you a trophy point !

AJS said:
It's one recent batch of resisters that weren't tune tight enough or something along those lines. He's sending out a mass E-Mail today or in the upcoming days. He has a fix for it, he found the issue, all within days of discovering the issue. He has tested a unit with the problem, implemented his fix, and couldn't recreate the issue. So...looks like it's solved or close to.

Ok he solved it, but why wait "in coming days" to send a mass email or reach all users of that batch or lot . @Melting Pot almost melted his pot today!!! What if someone who isn't on FC often rests their Zion in proximity of something flammable ?!? Maybe people have been reaches , just saying because Captain Hindsight tends to only come after unfortunate events.

Edit. : @AJS happy you received yours man!! Be safe and let 'er rip!

vapen00b · Sep 24, 2017

Just received this mail from Ryan and wanted to pass on. Every Zion pre-order Customer should have received this or is going to soon:

Zion Project Alert

Greetings Zion Pre-order customers. This correspondence is to alert you to an issue that we have found in approximately 3% of Zion’s shipped after 7/15/2017. If the Zion is used steadily on the highest setting for 4-6 sessions (max heat) and then a fully charged set of batteries (Max Voltage) are installed and use begins immediately, the unit can stay on after the button in disengaged. For this reason, and knowing this failure could have multiple causes, please follow the following rules.

Be mindful of the temperature of the wood around the heater. If the wood is hot to the touch, remove the batteries and let cool. If the problem continues, please complete the warranty form on rastabuddhatao.net and send it in for trouble shooting and repair.
Allow time between draws for the unit to cool.
Allow 15 minutes before placing fresh batteries in a hot unit
Always remove the batteries when the unit is not in use. These batteries and heater are powerful and any accidental firing of the heater can result in an over temperature situation that can damage the Zion. Never leave your Zion unattended with the batteries installed.

These rules apply to all Zions as it is good general practice. If you received your Zion after 7/15/2017 and would like to send it in and have the electronics replaced, we are more than happy to do that to ensure that you have peace of mind.
We have tested a solution that has proven to resolve this issue. In the coming weeks additional units will be built to validate the change and then the manufacture will be released to build the remaining wire harnesses required to complete the Zion Pre-Order build.
We apologize for this added delay in the Zion project and hope that you understand that this is a “stop the line” type problem. With a solution in hand I am confident that in the next 4-6 weeks we will complete the Zion pre-order provided no other ghost appear.

Thanks for your patience and cooperation as we work through this issue!

Peace,
Ryan aka RBT

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