next generation e-nails?

alittledabwilldoya'

alittledabwilldoya'

Sapphire Powered Dabstronaut.
MileHighLife said:
What's the reason for needing sapphire? I know it looks nice and sounds "baller" (lol) but the specs are eclipsed by those of SiC. It's more expensive because it takes longer to make but that doesn't necessarily make it better. To me it seems like an unnecessary item for people who leave stickers on hats. But again ... to each their own ;)

:peace:
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The taste when dabbing on sapphire more nuanced.
One can run at a lower temperature on sapphire than when using SiC, making the dab smoother.
What makes it better is it's performance, not it's price.

And you're right, it is baller.

:evil:

But I like it because I'm pragmatic, and like what works best.

:)
 
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alittledabwilldoya',
MileHighLife

MileHighLife

Blower of glass, grower of grass
herbivore21 said:
The taste of sapphire over SiC is night and day brother. It is better by a long shot. I am not interested in what is baller, and if I was, would have stuck with the more expensive quartz I was using years ago!

SiC is more robust but sapphire tastes infinitely better than SiC - while also getting the full vaporization that quartz lacks. If you can get sapphire on an enail, it is the best dab you will get, hands down IME. For reference, I have used almost all of the above and most of them as daily drivers at one time or another :2c:
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I don't know ... maybe I just need to try it but as a scientist you have to understand my skepticism. We are working with inert materials here that will add no flavors to the dab and SiC has higher thermal conductivity meaning you should be able to dab at a lower temp than sapphire while achieving the same vaporization ... unless science is lying again. NIST showed the world that can happen a while back.
 
herbivore21

herbivore21

Well-Known Member
MileHighLife said:
I don't know ... maybe I just need to try it but as a scientist you have to understand my skepticism. We are working with inert materials here that will add no flavors to the dab and SiC has higher thermal conductivity meaning you should be able to dab at a lower temp than sapphire while achieving the same vaporization ... unless science is lying again. NIST showed the world that can happen a while back.
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Man you may know that I am a scientist by profession, a college educator and paid researcher. I am as skeptical as anyone. However, IME thermal conductivity (which as you say is technically better on SiC) is clearly not the only relevant variable to consider here between SiC and the various sapphire offerings available.

Remember, science does not always know all of the relevant variables (especially for a recently emerging application like this which has legal and regulatory hurdles for scholars like myself trying to study it!) and especially when it comes to this application (high end e-nails) there are 0 peer reviewed studies that I have yet seen. This means that the existing science has negligible information to offer us in explaining the difference. However, the difference is very clearly there, and AFAIK universally reported by those who have experience with relevant devices.

There was one study I remember that considered Ti torch and nail offerings but did not look into the physics and chemistry of vaporization with those devices, let alone high-end products. The science is just not going to help us answer what is happening at this stage and at this stage, it is better to just try it for yourself and see what we are talking about :)
 
alittledabwilldoya'

alittledabwilldoya'

Sapphire Powered Dabstronaut.
MileHighLife said:
I don't know ... maybe I just need to try it but as a scientist you have to understand my skepticism. We are working with inert materials here that will add no flavors to the dab and SiC has higher thermal conductivity meaning you should be able to dab at a lower temp than sapphire while achieving the same vaporization ... unless science is lying again. NIST showed the world that can happen a while back.
Click to expand...

We are just trying to share our experience.

You should try an experiment of your own, I currently have a Sapphire Halo up for sale in the Classifieds section for a very reasonable price.
 
MileHighLife

MileHighLife

Blower of glass, grower of grass
herbivore21 said:
Man you may know that I am a scientist by profession, a college educator and paid researcher. I am as skeptical as anyone. However, IME thermal conductivity (which as you say is technically better on SiC) is clearly not the only relevant variable to consider here between SiC and the various sapphire offerings available.

Remember, science does not always know all of the relevant variables (especially for a recently emerging application like this which has legal and regulatory hurdles for scholars like myself trying to study it!) and especially when it comes to this application (high end e-nails) there are 0 peer reviewed studies that I have yet seen. This means that the existing science has negligible information to offer us in explaining the difference. However, the difference is very clearly there, and AFAIK universally reported by those who have experience with relevant devices.

There was one study I remember that considered Ti torch and nail offerings but did not look into the physics and chemistry of vaporization with those devices, let alone high-end products. The science is just not going to help us answer what is happening at this stage and at this stage, it is better to just try it for yourself and see what we are talking about :)
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I guess it's just one of those things you gotta try to believe.
invertedisdead said:
Science is mans crude attempt at understanding nature, it's wrong all the time!
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I had to ... my favorite show
 
Monsoon

Monsoon

Well-Known Member
I stumbled upon an interesting article on the D-Nail site which I think @herbivore21 will be especially interested in: Stabilized Uptemp dabbing. The link has an 8 page research doc on it too with charts and all that fun stuff! They probably describe it better than I can:

The flavors in your essential oil are due to a range of volatile organic compounds such as terpenes. Each one vaporizes at a slightly different temperature, and many are broken down or destroyed entirely if exposed to too much heat. By starting at a low nail temperature that rises through the hit, each compound has the chance to vaporize before being destroyed, meaning more of your flavor is preserved. Because the hit ends at a high nail temperature, waste (such as pooling) is also reduced (compared to a hit entirely at low temperatures).​

I would read their full write-up before trying it yourself but the basic procedure is to start the heater during temp freefall at 400F (on the unit), set it to 850F and then drop the dab at 425F and enjoy the flavour train! I tried it with a couple dabs but with the max set to 700F for sapphire and it definitely gave me more subtle flavour notes than dabbing at a fixed 615F. It's not a completely new technique since lots of people here do cold start dabs but its cool to see some basic science behind it.
 
herbivore21

herbivore21

Well-Known Member
Monsoon said:
I stumbled upon an interesting article on the D-Nail site which I think @herbivore21 will be especially interested in: Stabilized Uptemp dabbing. The link has an 8 page research doc on it too with charts and all that fun stuff! They probably describe it better than I can:

The flavors in your essential oil are due to a range of volatile organic compounds such as terpenes. Each one vaporizes at a slightly different temperature, and many are broken down or destroyed entirely if exposed to too much heat. By starting at a low nail temperature that rises through the hit, each compound has the chance to vaporize before being destroyed, meaning more of your flavor is preserved. Because the hit ends at a high nail temperature, waste (such as pooling) is also reduced (compared to a hit entirely at low temperatures).​

I would read their full write-up before trying it yourself but the basic procedure is to start the heater during temp freefall at 400F (on the unit), set it to 850F and then drop the dab at 425F and enjoy the flavour train! I tried it with a couple dabs but with the max set to 700F for sapphire and it definitely gave me more subtle flavour notes than dabbing at a fixed 615F. It's not a completely new technique since lots of people here do cold start dabs but its cool to see some basic science behind it.
Click to expand...
Interesting brother, I only just read this yesterday myself! Will have to give it a shot and report back!
 
Hogni

Hogni

Honi soit qui mal y pense
How does this method work with a E-Nail without separate switch off for the coil heater? Dialing down temperature?
 
Hogni,
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throwawaytre3s

throwawaytre3s

Well-Known Member
What's funny is that I actually tried uptemp dabbing for the first time a few weeks ago, and I didn't even know about it. I just thought it would be interesting to try out, and see what affect it had on the flavor profile as I went through the dab. It was lovely, I'd recommend it, particularly if you have a small rig with low percolation, so much flavor man.
 
mrbonsai420

mrbonsai420

Accessory Maker
Accessory Maker
Monsoon said:
I stumbled upon an interesting article on the D-Nail site which I think @herbivore21 will be especially interested in: Stabilized Uptemp dabbing. The link has an 8 page research doc on it too with charts and all that fun stuff! They probably describe it better than I can:

The flavors in your essential oil are due to a range of volatile organic compounds such as terpenes. Each one vaporizes at a slightly different temperature, and many are broken down or destroyed entirely if exposed to too much heat. By starting at a low nail temperature that rises through the hit, each compound has the chance to vaporize before being destroyed, meaning more of your flavor is preserved. Because the hit ends at a high nail temperature, waste (such as pooling) is also reduced (compared to a hit entirely at low temperatures).​

I would read their full write-up before trying it yourself but the basic procedure is to start the heater during temp freefall at 400F (on the unit), set it to 850F and then drop the dab at 425F and enjoy the flavour train! I tried it with a couple dabs but with the max set to 700F for sapphire and it definitely gave me more subtle flavour notes than dabbing at a fixed 615F. It's not a completely new technique since lots of people here do cold start dabs but its cool to see some basic science behind it.
Click to expand...


Cool, I do a huge cold start dab in the Liger every morning. I just throw a glob in, turn it on , cap it and start hitting it at about 400. By the time it hits my targeted 650-680 I have had a shit ton of hits and I am toasted! lol. Those first 4 or 5 hits are so tasty too! Like first hit off an Evo Vapexnail tasty!
 
Monsoon

Monsoon

Well-Known Member
mrbonsai420 said:
Like first hit off an Evo Vapexnail tasty!
Click to expand...
Yup reminded me a lot of that experience, nice to know I can get that with the e-nail. Probably won't do it too much since I find it also lessens the high but I'm experimenting with starting the dab around 550F and then ramping up to 620F so I can get the best of both worlds.
 
Monsoon,
throwawaytre3s

throwawaytre3s

Well-Known Member
Monsoon said:
Yup reminded me a lot of that experience, nice to know I can get that with the e-nail. Probably won't do it too much since I find it also lessens the high but I'm experimenting with starting the dab around 550F and then ramping up to 620F so I can get the best of both worlds.
Click to expand...

I might even suggest using closer to 520F for a really low temp dab, but you'll need to carb it in order to get that pressure and heat spike to vaporize the rest off.
 
throwawaytre3s,
herbivore21

herbivore21

Well-Known Member
Monsoon said:
I stumbled upon an interesting article on the D-Nail site which I think @herbivore21 will be especially interested in: Stabilized Uptemp dabbing. The link has an 8 page research doc on it too with charts and all that fun stuff! They probably describe it better than I can:

The flavors in your essential oil are due to a range of volatile organic compounds such as terpenes. Each one vaporizes at a slightly different temperature, and many are broken down or destroyed entirely if exposed to too much heat. By starting at a low nail temperature that rises through the hit, each compound has the chance to vaporize before being destroyed, meaning more of your flavor is preserved. Because the hit ends at a high nail temperature, waste (such as pooling) is also reduced (compared to a hit entirely at low temperatures).​

I would read their full write-up before trying it yourself but the basic procedure is to start the heater during temp freefall at 400F (on the unit), set it to 850F and then drop the dab at 425F and enjoy the flavour train! I tried it with a couple dabs but with the max set to 700F for sapphire and it definitely gave me more subtle flavour notes than dabbing at a fixed 615F. It's not a completely new technique since lots of people here do cold start dabs but its cool to see some basic science behind it.
Click to expand...
I gave this technique an attempt today and have a few notes - mostly positive :D

1. This is a time consuming way to set up your dab. If you have immediate medical needs that are likely to come up - have two enails. One always ready for a dab at a stable temp and another at the ready for uptemp dabbing. I can say with almost certainty that d-nail will release new controllers that incorporate this kind of functionality into pre-defined settings that take care of the work. Still, not hard to get the hang of overall.

2. The flavor is fucking out of this world! The start of the medium sized 5 star full melt that I dabbed was the most intense lemon candy like flavor I've ever had. This isn't the same as start-of-ultra-low-temp-vapexnail flavor, it's much better still!

The dab was less harsh overall no doubt because terpenes at the beginning of the dab were more gently vaporized at the super low temp, instead of violently decomposing and degrading at temps far beyond their respective boiling points. The end of the hit tasted like your typical aged but still high quality hashy taste. Very pleasant and enjoyable - not like that generic overcooked errl taste you get from other dabs. I will try this with some rosin soon to see if the end of the hit gets any of this aspect.

3. The rise in temp made the dab vaporize so much more effectively and for for full melt (which requires a little longer to fully vaporize than oil) the rising temp towards the end was very beneficial. I felt like there was absolutely no wastage this way.

4. I qtipped very late when the nail was very low temp, it still came up just as clean. I turned off my enail when it hit 600 on the dial because the dab was finished, although I had it set at 800 or so.

All in all, this will be game changing when it is incorporated into a fool-proof factory preset function of next-gen controllers. For now, it is great for the best of your dabs, the ones that are too good to 'waste to taste' and too tasty to hit at high temps to ensure full vaporization. If you have quartz especially, I recommend this technique.

Reading the notes, it does not seem ideal for SiC (very different behavior with heat vs other materials is the culprit) and it is great on sapphire (I used the sapphire halo), but I would be very careful and only use the heat retainer between the coil and dish as they suggest for sapphire.
 
mrbonsai420

mrbonsai420

Accessory Maker
Accessory Maker
herbivore21 said:
I gave this technique an attempt today and have a few notes - mostly positive :D

1. This is a time consuming way to set up your dab. If you have immediate medical needs that are likely to come up - have two enails. One always ready for a dab at a stable temp and another at the ready for uptemp dabbing. I can say with almost certainty that d-nail will release new controllers that incorporate this kind of functionality into pre-defined settings that take care of the work. Still, not hard to get the hang of overall.

2. The flavor is fucking out of this world! The start of the medium sized 5 star full melt that I dabbed was the most intense lemon candy like flavor I've ever had. This isn't the same as start-of-ultra-low-temp-vapexnail flavor, it's much better still!

The dab was less harsh overall no doubt because terpenes at the beginning of the dab were more gently vaporized at the super low temp, instead of violently decomposing and degrading at temps far beyond their respective boiling points. The end of the hit tasted like your typical aged but still high quality hashy taste. Very pleasant and enjoyable - not like that generic overcooked errl taste you get from other dabs. I will try this with some rosin soon to see if the end of the hit gets any of this aspect.

3. The rise in temp made the dab vaporize so much more effectively and for for full melt (which requires a little longer to fully vaporize than oil) the rising temp towards the end was very beneficial. I felt like there was absolutely no wastage this way.

4. I qtipped very late when the nail was very low temp, it still came up just as clean. I turned off my enail when it hit 600 on the dial because the dab was finished, although I had it set at 800 or so.

All in all, this will be game changing when it is incorporated into a fool-proof factory preset function of next-gen controllers. For now, it is great for the best of your dabs, the ones that are too good to 'waste to taste' and too tasty to hit at high temps to ensure full vaporization. If you have quartz especially, I recommend this technique.

Reading the notes, it does not seem ideal for SiC (very different behavior with heat vs other materials is the culprit) and it is great on sapphire (I used the sapphire halo), but I would be very careful and only use the heat retainer between the coil and dish as they suggest for sapphire.
Click to expand...


I think this is something @HexNailAva could program into the Hexnail. We should look into this! Ava, Add this mode to the Hexnail please ;)
 
mrbonsai420,
herbivore21

herbivore21

Well-Known Member
mrbonsai420 said:
I think this is something @HexNailAva could program into the Hexnail. We should look into this! Ava, Add this mode to the Hexnail please ;)
Click to expand...
Anyone could do it with any enail. I am sure that d-nail will be doing the same with their upcoming touch screen enails. Still, it would be time consuming even if automated. I would keep another enail at a stable temp in either case.
 
herbivore21,
Monsoon

Monsoon

Well-Known Member
mrbonsai420 said:
I think this is something @HexNailAva could program into the Hexnail. We should look into this! Ava, Add this mode to the Hexnail please ;)
Click to expand...
What I'd really like to see in the HexNail is full programmability which I believe it should be capable of. Ideally I'd like to be able to control the rate of temperature increase (faster for small dabs and slower for large ones) as well as set the start and end points.

herbivore21 said:
Anyone could do it with any enail. I am sure that d-nail will be doing the same with their upcoming touch screen enails. Still, it would be time consuming even if automated. I would keep another enail at a stable temp in either case.
Click to expand...
Didn't know they were working on touch screen ones. I'd really like to see one designed by them from the ground up, their current line is solid in terms of function but it's a pretty basic design with off the shelf components. After all their innovating with the Halo series and on the rosin side, kinda feels like their base units have been neglected lately.

I don't find it too time consuming if you manage your time right. I usually keep it at around 620F when I'm ready I change the temp to 420F and start getting my dab ready. By then it should be below 500F, I jack it to 620F and then start once it passes the desired point usually between 500F and 550F on the Sapphire Halo.
 
alittledabwilldoya'

alittledabwilldoya'

Sapphire Powered Dabstronaut.
Monsoon said:
What I'd really like to see in the HexNail is full programmability which I believe it should be capable of. Ideally I'd like to be able to control the rate of temperature increase (faster for small dabs and slower for large ones) as well as set the start and end points.
Click to expand...

^^^ This.
 
alittledabwilldoya',
herbivore21

herbivore21

Well-Known Member
alittledabwilldoya' said:
^^^ This.
Click to expand...
See I actually don't necessarily ever want to bother with a hexnail or touchscreen d-nail depending on how they are made. That Ukrainian PID in the d-nail 1.2/ninja design will survive a nuclear winter (not to mention the 2.0 lol). I don't want a shitty tablet operating system and proprietary software running on it for my nail. Computers, tablets and especially applications designed for them regularly have problems. I do not want to put up with computer hardware and software problems on my e-nail - this is my medicine! Moreover, I do not want any kind of wireless connectivity in any dab product. Not bluetooth, not wifi! The way the market is heading right now really concerns me with this stuff. I am sure everyone is about to dive into working with tablets/touchscreens and computer based systems as the basis for their enail controllers and I can see a whole generation of painstaking teething problems ahead lol
 
Monsoon

Monsoon

Well-Known Member
Monsoon,
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