Smoking vs vaping when it comes to pesticides

Hello,

Unfortunately I'm in an illegal place. Which means I can't be sure if my weed has pesticides on it or not, probably it has, so assuming it is the worst as it can get. Is vaping it still safer than smoking? I'm asking because I have the doubt wherever combustion may alter or reduce the bad effects of pesticides, while vaping could just release it in a more pure and toxic form?

I have no idea about chemistry so please bear with me if this is just plain stupid. Also, is there a way to test it that I could do at home? markers or signs that I could look for that may suggest presence of pesticides?

Thanks

Without any particular knowledge of specific pesticide chemistry, the following things should be true:

- Vaping will work at lower temperatures, therefore any chemicals that vaporize at higher temps than you use may be excluded.
- Vaping will not cause pyrolysis, therefore any nasty chemicals that arise from that will not be present, or less present.

I see no reason why vaping would be more dangerous than combusting for releasing harmful chemicals, higher temps will just release even more nasty stuff.

I also think you can probably relax. If you're smoking nasty Mexican brick schwag then my condolences and I hope you find better, but most hydro should be reasonably safe for consumption I think. I've never heard of anyone hosing their dro down with pesticides but maybe someone with actual growing experience will correct me.

HighSeasSailor said:

I see no reason why vaping would be more dangerous than combusting for releasing harmful chemicals, higher temps will just release even more nasty stuff.

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Is it possible that like certain cannabinoids which vaporize at lower temperatures than other cannabinoids, there are also harmful toxins that release at lower temperatures - possibly in our vaporizing temperature range?

Maitri said:

Is it possible that like certain cannabinoids which vaporize at lower temperatures than other cannabinoids, there are also harmful toxins that release at lower temperatures - possibly in our vaporizing temperature range?

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Sure, I'd bet money that some chemicals contained in pesticides do vaporize at lower temps, but if they vaporize at lower temps they will at combustion temps too. I'm not suggesting that vaping will render chemically tainted cannabis safe, but it's almost by definition going to be safer than combusting, much the way sniffing room temperature cannabis buds with pesticide on them would be yet safer than vaping them. Plus, no pyrolysis.

In my opinion, this is perhaps the biggest unspoken benefit of vaping.

It makes shitty weed, not as shitty. I don't know about pesticides specifically, but there is all sorts of junk that makes your bud crap, left over nutrients and chemicals from hydro grows, almost on all bud.

Well, vaping, you don't actually ever burn it hot enough to extract a lot of that shit. I've had mediocre bud, that would be not great in a joint, but is pretty damned good in the vape. When I mean mediocre, its potent and smelly, tasty, but it's also not as well flushed as it should be and has some nutes on it.

But most bud has leftover nutes on it, as most people can't tell anyway, its a question of how much. Best bud has none of that shit.

...honestly i wouldn't be concerned with pesticide residue left in your product...
the potential trace amounts that would be left wouldn't be much if any harm to humans...


if you live in a city, your breathing in way more crap than you'll ever find residue in a plant!



(I do work in the Agriculture industry and am a little bias when it comes to crop inputs and the importance of them,
I know we cannot feed this planet organically)

just_the_flu said:

...honestly i wouldn't be concerned with pesticide residue left in your product...
the potential trace amounts that would be left wouldn't be much if any harm to humans...


if you live in a city, your breathing in way more crap than you'll ever find residue in a plant!



(I do work in the Agriculture industry and am a little bias when it comes to crop inputs and the importance of them,
I know we cannot feed this planet organically)

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Yeah, but most weed does have leftover nutrients and chemicals on it. Noticeable. That sandy shit, that people seem to think is crystals or kief. But actual crystals are very very fine, they don't pile up like sand.

It's easy enough to know what weed has that shit on it. But most weed in Amsterdam is like that. America, depending on where you are, can be better, for sure.

Problem is flushing. Its done typically from 1-3 weeks. With 3 weeks being when you get clean bud finally, but most people flush for 1 week. Bud will always still be dirty if you only flush for 7 days. Lots of growers think 10 days of flushing is being kind. Degrees of dirtiness. 95% of bud is very dirty.

Vaporizers don't get hot enough to burn that shit, because the vapor is always nice, and doesn;t have that chemical or harsh taste, like you get from smoking bad bud.

Flushing before harvesting is crucial to a clean yield.

I also live in an illegal cannabis environment, and I have vaped bud that can't be exhaled through the nose without unbearable irritation. This is usually my test for how clean a supplier is.

I definitely think vaping has the potential to expose us to a different spectrum of chemicals, where not all of them are desirable. Combustion byproducts are definitely worth avoiding though, so typically I would still recommend vaping over smoking without exception.

But no one knows.
I would suggest vaping through water, as this will limit the amount of water soluble contaminants like ammonia, other gases and many pesticides found in vapour.

Try and find cannabis that you can exhale through the nose comfortably.

malsanti said:

Yeah, but most weed does have leftover nutrients and chemicals on it. Noticeable. That sandy shit, that people seem to think is crystals or kief. But actual crystals are very very fine, they don't pile up like sand.

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Are you thinking of this? https://www.theguardian.com/society/2007/jan/12/drugsandalcohol.drugs

Bud doesn't have any actual crystals, I believe you're thinking of capitate trichomes. These are soft/sticky.

Separately, hydroponic bud does need to be 'flushed' to remove stored nutrients in the plant cells, but it's not at all common (in my experience) to find un-flushed hydro bud. And it definitely doesn't result in 'sandy shit'.

Organically grown bud never needs to be flushed for nutrient build up (though stinky nutes like fish meal should be avoided in the final few weeks as they can impart undesirable smells).

Peace and learning!

Keep in mind that when smoking, you're still getting a ton of vapor. Every time the bud gets sufficient heat, from the glowing cherry, it vaporizes before it combusts. Combustion is not really providing any protection, even in a best case scenario.

max said:

Keep in mind that when smoking, you're still getting a ton of vapor. Every time the bud gets sufficient heat, from the glowing cherry, it vaporizes before it combusts. Combustion is not really providing any protection, even in a best case scenario.

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Actually in a scenario where excessive heat is applied, it can limit exposure to complex molecules, some of which could be worse than their deconstructed byproducts.

If you have sufficient vaporisation in the bowl or joint, for sure you might still get exposure to the same chemicals but not at the same concentrations.

Combustion is obviously still worse for many other reasons, but pesticide exposure is an understudied potential with vaping.

That's an interesting subject ! I was also wondering about this potential chemical/pesticide issue.

I'm also not trusting the source of my weed...

I was told that we can put the weed in water for sometime. Let it soak and then retrieve it and let it dry. As the THC/CBD are hydrophobic you won't lose effect.
I really doubt of this story and I've never tried.. But I want to share that story with you, in case someone know this method and confirm it is working ?
That's would be a nice little weed cleaning method (but far from being ideal in term of efficiency !)

MoltenTiger said:

Actually in a scenario where excessive heat is applied, it can limit exposure to complex molecules, some of which could be worse than their deconstructed byproducts.

If you have sufficient vaporisation in the bowl or joint, for sure you might still get exposure to the same chemicals but not at the same concentrations.

Combustion is obviously still worse for many other reasons, but pesticide exposure is an understudied potential with vaping.

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I agree on this.

Let's say cyanide, to be extreme and demonstrative, what's the result when you combust it ? Is there still any trace of it or is it gone in a whole smoke/carbon ? Because if this is true, we can say it's less deadly to inhale cyanide when it's first burnt.

That could be the same with weed, some molecule could be simply destroy with the high temp and thus avoid potential toxicity.

The only things we need to know are:
- what are the potential molecule we can find into weed ?
- what are the potential quantity ?
- what is the vaporization temperature of each of this molecule ?

I'm not a chemist at all, just wondering

I've wondered about this too. seems that smoking will impart to the lungs and airways the pesticide residue with a layer of soot and vaping would do the same except with a layer of vape resin.

the smoked and burned pesticide residual would be melted and deformed more so than the vaped residual as it would maintain more of its molecular profile because of less heat deformation... this is all guesses really and like was posted before, we don't really have the tests yet to prove....

some brick weed has actually been soaked in pesticides after it was dried to make the buzz stronger when smoked those are the bad guys who need punishing, not innocent people seeking health relief from plants....

edit... we ( most of us) eat pesticides all day in our food and they are the clean versions of the residue ( not burt or vaped) but still good or bad for us??

just_the_flu said:

the potential trace amounts that would be left wouldn't be much if any harm to humans...

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Does anyone have a link to some literature about this?
I was discussing this just yesterday and would really like to read something on the subject.

I've always wondered about this as well. The difference between smoking and vaping is that vaping doesn't really convert the compounds (cannabinoids, pesticides, etc) to anything different. With combustion pyrolysis converts many compounds to hydrocarbons. Theoretically vaping could release the pesticide while combusting turns it into a hydrocarbon. I think research into this subject is pretty important. Overall though vaping should still be safer.

So I have just done some reading, and its not looking ideal.

Research Article
Determination of Pesticide Residues in Cannabis Smoke

Three different pesticides, bifenthrin, diazinon, and permethrin, along with the plant growth regulator paclobutrazol, which are readily available to cultivators in commercial products, were investigated in the experiment....
Recoveries of residues were as high as 69.5% depending on the device used and the component investigated, suggesting that the potential of pesticide and chemical residue exposures to cannabis users is substantial and may pose a significant toxicological threat in the absence of adequate regulatory frameworks.

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This is smoke analysis, and unfortunately vaporisation wasn't considered in the study.
They measured the amounts via three different methods of filtration, glass pipe, glass pipe with water, glass pipe with activated carbon, water and cotton filtration.

This is the glass pipe.
These are the results.

The kicker is in the nature of the pesticides, mainly their flash points (temperature that the fumes given off will ignite), boiling points and pyrolysis products, and their low water-solubility.

Bifenthrin: melting point 64°C (147°F), boiling point 453.2 °C at 760 mmHg (1atm), flash point 165 °C (329 °F), possible carcinogen

Diazinon: "Decomposes above 120°C (248°F). This produces toxic fumes including nitrogen oxides, phosphorus oxides and sulfur oxides."

Permethrin: boiling point 200°C (392°F), damaging to lungs

Paclobutrazol: melting point 166°C (331°F), boiling point 461°C @1atm, flash point 232.6°C (450°F)

For the most part these chemicals don't seem extremely dangerous, I thought I read something about neurotoxicity with one, but can't find reference to it now. Overall though, they are definitely something to avoid inhaling. They have been found on cannabis from medicinal suppliers, there is no regulation and no testing. The general toxicity of pesticides is well documented, and anyone with immunodeficiency should take extra care when selecting material.
It is worth highlighting how effective cotton filtration is too.

In terms of pesticide exposure, vaping will be a marked improvement over smoking, but not by enough I doubt.

MoltenTiger said:

So I have just done some reading, and its not looking ideal.

Research Article
Determination of Pesticide Residues in Cannabis Smoke

This is smoke analysis, and unfortunately vaporisation wasn't considered in the study.
They measured the amounts via three different methods of filtration, glass pipe, glass pipe with water, glass pipe with activated carbon, water and cotton filtration.

This is the glass pipe.
These are the results.

The kicker is in the nature of the pesticides, mainly their flash points (temperature that the fumes given off will ignite), boiling points and pyrolysis products, and their low water-solubility.

Bifenthrin: melting point 64°C (147°F), boiling point 453.2 °C at 760 mmHg (1atm), flash point 165 °C (329 °F), possible carcinogen

Diazinon: "Decomposes above 120°C (248°F). This produces toxic fumes including nitrogen oxides, phosphorus oxides and sulfur oxides."

Permethrin: boiling point 200°C (392°F), damaging to lungs

Paclobutrazol: melting point 166°C (331°F), boiling point 461°C @1atm, flash point 232.6°C (450°F)

For the most part these chemicals don't seem extremely dangerous, I thought I read something about neurotoxicity with one, but can't find reference to it now. Overall though, they are definitely something to avoid inhaling. They have been found on cannabis from medicinal suppliers, there is no regulation and no testing. The general toxicity of pesticides is well documented, and anyone with immunodeficiency should take extra care when selecting material.
It is worth highlighting how effective cotton filtration is too.

In terms of pesticide exposure, vaping will be a marked improvement over smoking, but not by enough I doubt.

Click to expand...

as always the most clean source is paramount. I think of a person who cannot read or write but can grow the best cannabis in the world by using what organic matter is available around them. no weird unknown fertilizers just worm poop, yard scraps and the like....

Hey, good morning my dear fellow FCers

I saw this...

The Weed Blog: Recent Studies Suggest Vaping Marijuana Poses Less Risk for Toxin Exposure

...and thought of this thread. Enjoy...

Maitri said:

Hey, good morning my dear fellow FCers

I saw this...

The Weed Blog: Recent Studies Suggest Vaping Marijuana Poses Less Risk for Toxin Exposure

...and thought of this thread. Enjoy...

Click to expand...

Wow, I wasn't aware the numbers looked like that. That's freekin awesome if it's accurate!

"Flushing" means giving the plants water without any nutes or additives for a certain period * prior to harvest. * 5-7 days in recirculating hydro systems where nutes cannot build up in any substrate to 1-2 weeks in soil, coco or rockwool. Any residues of nutrients here will only be found in the leaf material and NOT the resin glands. You can make pretty decent and tasty hash from bud that has been fertilized even with Nitrogen up to harvest day when the leafs would actually crackle when combusted and literally taste like crap. So vaping unflushed bud is not a problem unless there is combustion.

ANYTHING that !easily! falls of the (not too dry) buds under normal room conditions is suspect and likely to be some crap to make the bud appear better than it is or even add weight. And boy, there is a long list of crap that people will sprinkle on weed for this purpose. None of that has anything to do with unsufficient flushing prior to harvest. In fact, most of that crap is added by dealers, not growers. Most of that will not be altered or vaporized by temps up to 220/230°C but may still be inhaled thru a dry vape. So suspicious material might be safer thru water.

As to herbi-/pesticides: it's easy to abolish them when you never saw the next three house leases or mortgage payments or even decent food on the table getting eaten by fucking pests or diseases. So I would not guarantee pesticide free goods in an illegal market, no matter if the bud is grown by the acre or under 1-2 lamps in a basement or attic. However, no smart grower would spray his crop in the last three or four weeks prior to harvest cause that might be a cause for budrot. So I would reckon the risk to find it in the resin itself is not that super high.

Only 1 (one) way to have really safe weed, but that's not to be discussed here. Which I get, hoping the above is not too explicit, I tried to address this strictly from a consumers POV.

Best,
Hamma

Hammahead said:

NYTHING that !easily! falls of the (not too dry) buds under normal room conditions is suspect and likely to be some crap to make the bud appear better than it is or even add weight. And boy, there is a long list of crap that people will sprinkle on weed for this purpose.

Click to expand...

I remember in the bad old days (I'm talking a long time ago) there was weed that they would spray with sugar water to make it look 'crystally' and add weight. I'm sure there is much worse stuff out there being used to day by the unscrupulous.

That's really a long time ago and though it's nasty, it kind of beats pulverized glass or even lead.

http://www.laweekly.com/news/pestic...rowing-problem-for-cannabis-consumers-7526808

http://exclusive.multibriefs.com/co...th-about-pesticides/medical-allied-healthcare

This is disconcerting. You scour the internet & there are tons of stories like these & a few on FC here as well. And the fact that these places are dispensaries makes me cringe at what's possibly in my stuff.

Maitri said:

The Weed Blog: Recent Studies Suggest Vaping Marijuana Poses Less Risk for Toxin Exposure

Click to expand...

This was a good article. I have one question though. In the article it says, "Marijuana vapor was 95% active cannabinoids and 5% other materials", but what if the cannabinoids are covered in pesticides ? Wouldn't you vaporize some of the pesticides along w/ the cannabinoids ?

MoltenTiger said:

So I have just done some reading, and its not looking ideal.

Research Article
Determination of Pesticide Residues in Cannabis Smoke

This is smoke analysis, and unfortunately vaporisation wasn't considered in the study.
They measured the amounts via three different methods of filtration, glass pipe, glass pipe with water, glass pipe with activated carbon, water and cotton filtration.

This is the glass pipe.
These are the results.

The kicker is in the nature of the pesticides, mainly their flash points (temperature that the fumes given off will ignite), boiling points and pyrolysis products, and their low water-solubility.

Bifenthrin: melting point 64°C (147°F), boiling point 453.2 °C at 760 mmHg (1atm), flash point 165 °C (329 °F), possible carcinogen

Diazinon: "Decomposes above 120°C (248°F). This produces toxic fumes including nitrogen oxides, phosphorus oxides and sulfur oxides."

Permethrin: boiling point 200°C (392°F), damaging to lungs

Paclobutrazol: melting point 166°C (331°F), boiling point 461°C @1atm, flash point 232.6°C (450°F)

For the most part these chemicals don't seem extremely dangerous, I thought I read something about neurotoxicity with one, but can't find reference to it now. Overall though, they are definitely something to avoid inhaling. They have been found on cannabis from medicinal suppliers, there is no regulation and no testing. The general toxicity of pesticides is well documented, and anyone with immunodeficiency should take extra care when selecting material.
It is worth highlighting how effective cotton filtration is too.

In terms of pesticide exposure, vaping will be a marked improvement over smoking, but not by enough I doubt.

Click to expand...

I know it may be overkill, but from all the potential crap that could be in my product, I've been considering something similar to this. Maybe some fluffed up organic cotton in the MP of a WT & possibly a carbon adapter. Cheap enough to experiment with to see if it's worth it.

Morty said:

http://www.laweekly.com/news/pestic...rowing-problem-for-cannabis-consumers-7526808

http://exclusive.multibriefs.com/co...th-about-pesticides/medical-allied-healthcare

This is disconcerting. You scour the internet & there are tons of stories like these & a few on FC here as well. And the fact that these places are dispensaries makes me cringe at what's possibly in my stuff.



This was a good article. I have one question though. In the article it says, "Marijuana vapor was 95% active cannabinoids and 5% other materials", but what if the cannabinoids are covered in pesticides ? Wouldn't you vaporize some of the pesticides along w/ the cannabinoids ?



I know it may be overkill, but from all the potential crap that could be in my product, I've been considering something similar to this. Maybe some fluffed up organic cotton in the MP of a WT & possibly a carbon adapter. Cheap enough to experiment with to see if it's worth it.

Click to expand...

Filtration may possibly filter out the some of the good with the some of the bad... so vaping a bit less may render the same result. Don't dispensaries offer products with guarantees regarding 100% organic grown w/o pesticides?

Snappo said:

Filtration may possibly filter out the some of the good with the some of the bad... so vaping a bit less may render the same result

Click to expand...

Good point. Adding a cotton filter will certainly filter out some of the goodies & carbon filter a lot more. It sure would be nice to be able know your products origins & how it was cultivated. Sounds so CIVILIZED.