The 2016 Presidential Candidates Thread

Silat

When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind.

lwien

Well-Known Member
Let us all not forget that the media according to the experts has given Drumpf 2 billion in free advertising. Kind of shoots down the idea that the media is liberal.
Negativity per candidate from the media:
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2016/0...ive-stories-least-positive-stories-all/209945

http://www.vox.com/2016/4/15/11410160/hillary-clinton-media-bernie-sanders

The idea that MSNBC is the progressive equivalent of FOX if ridiculous to say the least.

Gotta comment but I gotta say Silat that we seem to disagree a lot lately, eh.

Anyway, the way I see it, the media covering Trump does not shoot down the idea that the media is liberal. The reason why the media is giving so much airtime to Trump simply has to do with ratings, thereby increasing advertising revenue. It has nothing to do with any political bias whatsoever. But please understand, that does not mean that I buy into the whole idea that the media is strictly liberal.

Secondly, I am one of those that feel that MSNBC is the progressive equivalent of Fox. Well, maybe not quite as blatant as Fox so it's not totally equal but I do see MSNBC being the flip side of the coin where Fox inhibits the other side. Am I ridiculous for thinking that? Some would say that I would be ridiculous if I didn't think that.
 
lwien,

gangababa

Well-Known Member
I said it before!
Voting for the President ought not be a popularity contest.
The two main party candidates represent two different visions for America.
Believe people (parties) when they say "this is what I (we) want for America.

There are only three voting choices possible for anyone.
Everyone will have to live under the governance of the winner (no matter haw bad the results of the actions of voting may be).

One can say I will vote (or not vote) to make me feel happy and morally justified.
One can vote for the vision of the Republican party, because one most closely identifies with their moral vision.
One can vote for the vision of the Democratic party, because one most closely identifies with their moral vision.

Oh, one can say "I am voting my checkbook" or any other explanation. However, all choices are ultimately ethical issues grounded in deciding between A or B, usually based upon personal desires and delusions (common to everyone).
Controlling the border may be good. Threatening mass deportation of America's families is not.

Below are some of the Republican Part Planks from this article (I deleted the main headline 'spin' words):
Here are 50 ... right-wing proposals in the 2016 GOP platform

Each of the following Republican planks can be evaluated using the yard-stick of the “Golden-Rule
“Do NOT do on to others that which you wish not be done onto you”
Bold was original article spin; Italics are my spin. Go to link for party platform words
.

Tax cuts for the rich: (prime directive)

Deregulate the banks: (let recessions and depressions regulate the economy)

Stop consumer protection: (you don’t matter, only business)

Start repealing environmental laws: (LA was great in the early 70’s)

Start shrinking unions and union labor: (America went downhill since the weekend)

Privatize federal railway service (Amtrak): (taking profit out of the common good)

No change in federal minimum wage: (you don’t matter, only business)

Cut government salaries and benefits: (you don’t need good services; hire the cheapest)

Appoint anti-choice Supreme Court justices: (Republican activist judges are not activists)

Appoint anti-LGBT and anti-Obamacare justices: (see above)

Legalize anti-LGBT discrimination: (What ‘golden rule’?)

Make Christianity a national religion: (Violation of US Constitution)

Loosen campaign finance loopholes and dark money: (Money and guns and oligarchy)

Loosen gun controls nationwide: (Guns and money and dead mommas)

Pass an anti-choice constitutional amendment: (What ‘golden rule’?)

End federal funding for Planned Parenthood: (Women don’t matter)

Allow states to shut down abortion Clinics: (Women don’t matter)

Oppose stem cell scientific research: (Science doesn’t matter)

Oppose executive branch policy making: (Things like Bush’s preemptive war idea)

Oppose efforts to end the electoral college: (Democracy is such a bother, let the rich rule)

Require citizenship documents to register to vote: (Your papers, bitte!)

Ignore undocumented immigrants when drawing congressional districts: (Democracy is such a bother, let the rich rule)

No labeling of GMO ingredients in food products: (Science doesn’t matter, you don’t matter, only business)

Add work requirements to welfare and cut food stamps: (pyramids for porridge)

Open America’s shores to more oil and gas drilling: (Water, water, everywhere-none is fit to drink)

Build the Keystone XL Pipeline: (clean water doesn’t matter)

Expand fracking and burying nuclear waste: (air, water, health… it’s not money)

No tax on carbon products: (prime directive)

Ignore global climate change agreements: (keeping one’s pledge is not a Republican thing)

Privatize Medicare, the health plan for seniors; (taking profit out of the common good)

Turn Medicaid, the poor’s health plan, over to states: (life expectancy by zip code)

No increasing Social Security benefits by taxing the rich: (prime directive)

Repeal Obamacare: (Hey! You were born; dignity of life is for fetuses)

Give internet service providers monopoly control: (taking profit out of the common good)

Make English the official U.S. language: (‘Cuz that’s what Jesus spoke)

No amnesty for undocumented immigrants: (Kick them out; crops rotting in the fields)

Build a border wall to keep immigrants out: (Keep them out; food prices rise and shelves empty)

Require government verification of citizenship of all workers: (Your papers, bitte!)

Penalize cities that give sanctuary to migrants: (Local control is such a bother)

Puerto Rico should be a state but not Washington DC: (Local control is such a bother)

Support traditional marriage but no other families: (favoritism is so American, but you don’t matter)

Privatize government services in the name of fighting poverty: (taking profit out of the common good)

Require bible study in public schools: (Violation of US Constitution)

Replace traditional public schools with privatized options: (taking profit out of the common good)

Replace sex education with abstinence-only approaches: (Science doesn’t matter)

Privatize student loans instead of lowering interest rates: (taking profit out of the common good)

Restore the death penalty: (Daily NRAterrorist death penalties abound in America)

Dramatically increase Pentagon budget: (without violating prime directive)

Cancel Iran nuclear treaty and expand nuclear arsenal: (keeping one’s pledge is not a Republican thing)
 

His_Highness

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
Honestly, I don't like Ted Cruz even a little bit. What he wants for America is nearly the opposite of what I want, and I can't imagine ever voting for him (for President) under any circumstances.

Never the less, I have to admire him for standing up against the Donald AT THE CONVENTION. That took some stones. I realize it is personal for him, but still, it is nice to have something to admire him for. It's not like Trump didn't personally attack most of the other Republicans who have decided to kiss his ring. Rubio in particular looks bad (to me) caving to him...

+1 for admiring Cruz for standing up like that. "Admiration" may be too strong a word though.

Cruz should have been a man about it (or should I just say a righteous Husband and Son) and made the "I am not in the habit of supporting people who attack my wife and attack my father," statement during his convention speech instead of waiting till after. Especially since he was boo'd like that. He had the chance to make a point to the convention goers, do right by his wife and honor his father.

I would have relished the opportunity to stand up for my wife and father while pointing out to the conventioneers that they were showing their asses to the world by supporting the lowest common denominator at the expense of their morals. I wonder if they would have boo'd him if he had made his case. If they did boo him for standing up for his wife and father then they have no heart, no soul.

Trump has pimped his family out to make the statement 'Look how wonderful my wife and kids are. I must be a good man or they wouldn't be this amazing'. Sure, other candidates have done similarly for the potential first lady but do we really need to hear from everyone including the family dog? This is why Cruz should have flamed Trump with that "I am not in the habit of supporting people who attack my wife and attack my father," during the convention. He missed his chance to point out that Trump doesn't respect "family" even if it looks like he does his own.
 

yogoshio

Annoying Libertarian
I think he didn't say that at the convention because that was probably the one thing the RNC said he could not say. If its' true that the RNC and Trump both signed off on the speech, then he got his opportunity to speak his peace.
 

CarolKing

Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
It's scary listening to my relatives (wife's side) say they dislike trump but they really like his VP choice, so they are going to vote for trump anyways because they hate Hillary more.

I need new relative's.
I hear you @Joel W. all of my husbands side of the family (including him)are republicans and family get togethers are interesting and agrivating at times. This can become a problem during a presidential election. A couple of them are farmers and they get plenty of freebies from the federal government.

I need to make sure I'm well medicated during family functions. I just keep my mouth shut. They know I'm a democrat. I wander around and play with the dog and enjoy the babies. I whisper in my husbands ear when I've had enough and am ready to go home.
 
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Silat

When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind.
Gotta comment but I gotta say Silat that we seem to disagree a lot lately, eh.

Anyway, the way I see it, the media covering Trump does not shoot down the idea that the media is liberal. The reason why the media is giving so much airtime to Trump simply has to do with ratings, thereby increasing advertising revenue. It has nothing to do with any political bias whatsoever. But please understand, that does not mean that I buy into the whole idea that the media is strictly liberal.

Secondly, I am one of those that feel that MSNBC is the progressive equivalent of Fox. Well, maybe not quite as blatant as Fox so it's not totally equal but I do see MSNBC being the flip side of the coin where Fox inhibits the other side. Am I ridiculous for thinking that? Some would say that I would be ridiculous if I didn't think that.

Until now I did not really disagree with you:)
MSNBC is nowhere near FoX as the liberal equivalent.
Few facts:
Joe Scarborough - 3 hours
Ayn L Rand Andrea Mitchell - 1 hour plus
I can go on.
The list of centrists and out right conservatives is long.
There are no liberals on Fox.
And Comcast/Msnbc announced in the recent past the move to a right wing slant. You can Google that.
 

CarolKing

Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
Trump is defiantly contradicting what Mike Pence said last night at the convention about protecting our NATO allies. Trump saying he won't protect certain countries if they haven't paid their bill is utterly crazy and he shot himself in the foot. Let's see if he smooths this out tonight or doubles down on it.

I hope he doesn't follow script tonight.
 

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
Many of the commentators on MSNBC have a liberal bias, some extremely liberal. But as Silat points out, not all of them by a longshot. And they NEVER shy away from stories like Fox News does, or relegate them to a footnote. MSNBC looks like a very liberal station only in comparison to Fox News. Fox News is right wing compared to ANY OTHER NEWS SERVICE other than maybe RT (russian television).

Trump is defiantly contradicting what Mike Pence said last night at the convention about protecting our NATO allies. Trump saying he won't protect certain countries if they haven't paid their bill is utterly crazy and he shot himself in the foot. Let's see if he smooths this out tonight or doubles down on it.

I hope he doesn't follow script tonight.
Extreme as he may be, Pence is a REAL Republican, not one co opting the party (sound familiar) just to run for President. Trump has no loyalty other than to himself. I am quite sure Pence is gonna be really sorry he chose to run with Trump. He is going to lose a lot of credability with his party and with his voters. It is impossible to be that close to Trump without getting shit on you.

Trump appeaing without teleprompter tonight would be a great gift to us all...
 
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His_Highness

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
In the past I've watched the nominee's speech at the convention to educate myself. I expect to be somewhat bored. If the nominee is also a good orator I may also be 'moved' emotionally.

Tonight I'll be watching Trump's speech to entertain myself. Trump's policies/stances are not knowledge based and I expect he will change them as often as he changes his tie. I don't expect to be 'moved' emotionally. So tonight I'm tuning in for the 'show'. Tune in to the DNC next week to see what will be done for the country. Tune in to the RNC tonight to see what he'll do at the podium.
:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:
 

CarolKing

Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
I was hearing on CNN Third Eye Blind band played for a Charity at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland. A crowd from the RNC started heckling and booed them.

The band said that they didn't agree with the RNC platform. The RNC still believed in conversion therapy for gays. Then a band member said there is nothing about climate change. He asks if they believed in science?

They performed the song Dairy Queen that criticizes the Iraq War and tells the story of 2 gay republicans.:lol:

Edit
Ted Cruz was talking this morning and it's obvious he's still pissed about what Trump said about his wife and dad. It's personal with Cruz not endorsing Trump.
 
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cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
Trump’s Outrageous Foreign Policy Views
by Nancy LeTourneau
July 21, 2016 3:32 PM

Recently I’ve noticed that I have developed two lines of defense against the kind of panic I would feel about an actual Trump presidency. First and foremost is the fact that the odds against him being elected are enormous. The Upshot recently calculated that Clinton has a 76% chance of winning.

Running a distance second to that defense is the fact that, as Stephen Colbert put it, “If he doesn’t ever have to mean what he says, that means he can say anything.” As soon as Trump says something truly outrageous, he and his campaign get busy walking it back. Just to demonstrate the level of outrageousness expressed by Trump, I actually fear his unpredictability less than I do what he says.

I must admit that the second line of defense tends to crumble with stories like the one Kevin Drum reports with this headline: “Donald Trump Just Invited Russia to Attack Eastern Europe.” Or how about this one from James Fallows? “It’s Official: Hillary Clinton Is Running Against Vladimir Putin.” Neither one of these men are the type who are prone to hyperbole. Here’s more from Fallows:

I am arguing that Trump’s understanding of America’s role in the world aligns with Russia’s geostrategic interests; that his critique of American democracy is in accord with the Kremlin’s critique of American democracy; and that he shares numerous ideological and dispositional proclivities with Putin—for one thing, an obsession with the sort of “strength” often associated with dictators. Trump is making it clear that, as president, he would allow Russia to advance its hegemonic interests across Europe and the Middle East. His election would immediately trigger a wave of global instability—much worse than anything we are seeing today—because America’s allies understand that Trump would likely dismantle the post-World War II U.S.-created international order. Many of these countries, feeling abandoned, would likely pursue nuclear weapons programs on their own, leading to a nightmare of proliferation.

That comes on the heels of what Trump said during an interview with David Sanger and Maggie Haberman of The New York Times. And no, Paul Manafort, according to the actual transcript, Trump was not misquoted. He hedged on whether or not the United States should come to the defense of our NATO allies.

Anna Nemtsova reports from Russia that those statements are in line with what Donald Trump and his campaign staff have been saying and promoting all along.

Excited by Donald Trump’s pledge to promote “easing of tensions and improved relations with Russia,” the Kremlin establishment earlier this month invited Trump adviser Carter Page to speak before graduating students of the New Economic School. Page did not disappoint. In his remarks, Page condemned current American policy for its “often-hypocritical focus on democratization, inequality, corruption and regime change.” When a Russian student asked Page whether he really believed that American society was liberal and democratic, Trump’s advisr grinned and delivered a line that might have come from Vladimir Putin himself. “I surround the word ‘liberal’ with quotes,” he said. ”I tend to agree with you that it’s not always as liberal as it may seem,” he said. “I’m with you.”

It was thus perfectly in keeping with Trump campaign’s entente with the Kremlin that last week Trump aides reportedly watered down the new Republican platform on Russia, removing language that called for giving weapons to Ukraine to fight Russian and rebel forces. Page, an energy expert, has close ties to Russian business and relationships with executives at Gazprom, the giant state-run gas company. Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort has worked as a lobbyist for former Ukraine’s former Russia-aligned president, Viktor Yanukovych.

For Putin, Trump is the gift that keeps on giving. Shunned and sanctioned by Western leaders for Russia’s aggression in Ukraine, Putin now sees a future ally riding into view. The Kremlin and its right-wing supporters also enthusiastically applaud the isolationist they see in Trump, who has suggested he might curtail U.S. involvement in NATO and European affairs, and who derides the same political “mainstream” that has deemed Putin a pariah.

As someone who has regularly critiqued how the U.S. handled the Cold War, I have no desire to return to that frame as a way to understand our relationship with Russia. But given the events in Georgia and Crimea over the last few years, we must also be cognizant of the threat Putin poses to our allies in Eastern Europe. As Fallows points out, our post-World War II international order has provided a kind of security that should never be easily dismissed.

What is also interesting to note are the business ties Nemtsova refers to between Trump’s advisor Carter Page and Russian oil interests. In a weird twist on the past, the Cold War with the USSR was used as a cover for U.S. corporations to promote their interests in South Asia, South America and the Middle East. To the extent that it is business interests that are driving this entente with the Kremlin, that makes it doubly dangerous.

As we watch all this unfold, remember that Republicans continue to claim that it is the foreign policy of Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton that has worried our allies and damaged our stature in the eyes of our enemies. But the exact opposite is true when we compare their record with what a Trump administration would do.

Now…with all that said, I’ll simply remind myself of my number one defense against panicking about a Trump presidency and hope my blood pressure goes back down.
 
cybrguy,
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grokit

well-worn member
We have the weakest, most disliked presidential front-runner in history trying to hold off the most racist, xenophobic presidential candidate in history. God, please bless america, we are going to need it!

gop1-final-object.jpg

:rip: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-end-of-a-republican-party/
 

lwien

Well-Known Member
The Creator of Fox News is out. Kinda interesting but what's really absurd is the other story with that therapist laying down with his hands up in the air being shot.

Wonder what kind of changes will occur at Fox........O'Rielly came out last week in total support for his boss stating that any allegations toward him was nothing more than sour grapes.

Edit: As a side note, we better take a VERY hard look at the VP nominations because there is a good chance that one of them, from either party, may become our President. Lots of passionate hate going on here against both Trump and Hillary. Secret Service better staff up...

YGJ4MW2.png
 
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grokit

well-worn member
This is an interesting interview, where they discuss the real tension in this election; it's not left/right so much as it is about the disconnect between the donor/lobbyist class and the electorate. Which was in hindsight somewhat predictable after the citizen's united supreme court decision imo. They also point out the chasm of disagreement within the donor class as a fresh phenomenon. Politicians have a fine line to walk when they need money from the people and institutions that define the status quo and are most interested in defending it, while trying to win the votes of those on both sides that want radical change.

In our current scenario the maverick is the billionaire fascist, while the establishment democrat has all the $. Which makes about as much sense as anything else in the neo-american post-9/11 era :mental::tup::argh:

A majority of americans already dislike & mistrust our next president :disgust:
:horse:
 
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CarolKing

Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
Booker in Cleveland criticizes tone of RNC
Herb Jackson, @record_dc6:07 p.m. EDT July 21, 2016

Sen. Timothy M. Kaine of Virginia and Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack remain two of the leading contenders for Hillary Clinton’s running mate, but Sen. Cory Booker of New Jersey is also under active consideration, according to a Democrat with knowledge of the process.

Booker, a freshman senator and former mayor of Newark, has drawn relatively little attention throughout Clinton’s selection process but remains a serious prospect. He was among the roughly half-dozen potential running mates who met with Clinton at her home in Washington on Friday, a fact first reported Thursday by Politico.

Booker was dispatched Thursday to Cleveland to participate in a news conference billed by the Clinton campaign as an opportunity “to denounce the divisive rhetoric surrounding Donald Trump’s Republican convention.”

Booker stayed mum at the event about being under consideration by Clinton but offered a long, impassioned defense of the former secretary of state — almost as if he were auditioning for the job.

“I’m happy to do what the coach asks me to do,” Booker, a former college football player, said, adding that there were “a lot of qualified people” who could fill the role.

I had heard that a renegade republican delegate was going to pledge his support to Gary Johnson later tonight. He figured that he would lose his support from his party. He assumes he would be fired as a delegate.:2c:
CK

Edit
Listening to Trump's long speech. "Those people". Trump said, My father Fred Trump liked to sit around with the brick layers and the carpenters. I like to sit around with the brick layers and the carpenters too. "I love those people". It sounded like, "I love the poorly educated." Or when he says I love the Blacks. It's so sincere.:lol:

Ted Cruz’s campaign hit Chris Christie where it hurts.

The Texas senator’s campaign manager claimed the New Jersey governor forked over his “political testicles” when he endorsed Donald Trump — a below-the-belt jab in response to Christie’s vicious Wednesday night attack on Cruz.

“That guy turned over his political testicles long ago,” Cruz boss Jeff Roe said on Philadelphia radio’s “The Chris Stigall Show” Thursday. “I don’t take what he has to say with any meaning. You know, he embarrassed himself pretty quickly in this.”
 
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lwien

Well-Known Member
Trumps speech. All emotion, no substance. His final big words of the evening is "I am the one that can fix it" without once stating HOW he's going to fix it. All platitudes and rhetoric. Nothing more.

This was his most Hitleresque speech yet. Angrily tell everyone how fucked up their lives are and how fucked up their country is and that HE is going to make everything better. I watched his demeanor, watched his facial expression, watched his delivery and he scared me more than ever.

If anyone takes the time to look past the emotional hooks, there is nothing else there.
 
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TeeJay1952

Well-Known Member
Just had old friend call to say "Third Party?" Why was my reply. Both equally bad was reply. Bodes ill for us all.
Folks are losing interest. Hard to get em' up for the election. Trumpanistas will be fired up. Hillery's folks resigned.
 
TeeJay1952,
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yogoshio

Annoying Libertarian
I would be so glad to remove the two party system from our nation's political discourse. I want open-ish immigration, which labels me a Dem. I am pro-life, which labels me a Rep. I am about efficiency in the government, which is Rep. I want the government to stop dictating morality, which is Dem. I could go on. Hence my inability to get behind a major party.

The issues we are facing are far too nuanced to leave it to merely two opposites of the same system.
 

His_Highness

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
I thought Trump did well. I wish I didn't think that. He spoke well and reigned in the over the top stuff. Truth aside he did a nice job of trying to seem personable instead of a narcissistic, petulant ass. All those personal stories from Ivanka and Trump to show his softer side. When I have more time I'm looking forward to reading the truth behind them.

I'm glad I taped it because I had to rewind when the LGBT parts of the speech came up. I wanted to see the faces in the crowd during the aftermath expecting to see disgust in the crowd. Especially when Trump said "as a republican I am so happy to hear you cheering for what I just said". I didn't see disgust but I did see a good number of facial expressions that seemed to be 'emotionless' during the applause. Guess they prepared the crowd in advance?

So is this the new approach - push the party more to the center while Hillary gets pushed further to the left.

Bring on the debates.....anyone can prepare and emote for one speech. Real time debate isn't as easy. I sure hope Trump decides to wing it instead of prepare the canned retorts as well as he did last night.
 

TeeJay1952

Well-Known Member
I would love to hear a plan and not a platitude. Make America Great Again means what???? Enough generalities, recriminations and insinuations. Specifically what is the plan? 200000 new INS agents? Fire all in TSA? Close EPA? Wall goes where? Go back on which deals and treaties? I think I know where they want to go but I don't know how they plan to get there.
It seems the though the idea is put Him in and He will figure it out. I would like a hint. A roadmap if you will. (get great people to do great things doesn't cut it. IMHO)
 

His_Highness

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
I would love to hear a plan and not a platitude. Make America Great Again means what???? Enough generalities, recriminations and insinuations. Specifically what is the plan? 200000 new INS agents? Fire all in TSA? Close EPA? Wall goes where? Go back on which deals and treaties? I think I know where they want to go but I don't know how they plan to get there.
It seems the though the idea is put Him in and He will figure it out. I would like a hint. A roadmap if you will. (get great people to do great things doesn't cut it. IMHO)

Completely agree but I'm afraid those who want the details, are willing to put in the time to ingest and determine efficacy and can stay awake while doing so......are not the majority. You can win a popularity contest without substance.....:(
 

yogoshio

Annoying Libertarian
I'm sorry, but to hear people gripe about "Make America Great Again" is just as terrible as "Hope" was. Talk about platitudes. Obama wasn't giving out any details during his campaign either.
 
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