Reasons I Dislike Concentrates (Personal Reasons)

the_cascadian

the_cascadian

Well-Known Member
Not trying to start a fight, just some observations I've had about concentrates that will hopefully spur an insightful discussion.

For the truly ill, concentrates have a place, sure. But for the recreational user, I have several issues. First, one of the beautiful things about cannabis is its simplicity: it requires very little preparation after picking. Same goes for the coca leaf, a wonderful and safe drug when all alkaloids remain intact as a whole plant product. However, when the active alkaloids are extracted and the entourage chemicals left behind, cocaine is produced, which is a super-potent and addictive drug. Similarly, the opium poppy can be manipulated into an even more dangerous drug through extraction. Or fermented potato mash can be distilled into vodka. Obviously, cannabis is different, but a similar process occurs in the production of Marinol, which isolates THC. And the negative side effects of Marinol are well-documented. What is left behind in your typical BHO or ice water hash process?

Interestingly, and on a somewhat related note, I have noticed that drip coffee gives me a jumpy harsh buzz whereas french press coffee is smoother and more well-rounded. Paper filters limit the amount of insolubles in the final brew, whereas the wider pore mesh filter allows insolubles and solubles alike to mingle.

Cannabis extracts are a natural course for the marijuana-dependent after they have moved through the usual methods of intoxication. First, a joint suffices, then only lung-busting bong rips will get you off, and then, ahhhh, BHO, the wonder cannabis product. It's like getting high for the first time. But what happens once the body is habituated to huge doses of cannabinoids? What kind of effect does this have on withdrawal? Or psychological dependence?

Now this is where I might lose all of you:

I think BHO is a symptom of the widening gap we place between ourselves and nature. No longer content with a simple beautiful earth flower, we must manipulate a perfectly perfect plant into something with more kick that doesn't resemble its natural form. It's just a brown drug substance after extraction, not a flower.

Further, BHO seems to be all about image with most users I know. Their instagram accounts are filled with pictures and videos of them dabbing with their stylish rigs. Most of these people work at/run dispensaries. Is this medical marijuana?

OK, so I'm a bit biased. But no hate toward the dabbers out there, honest.
 
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707vallejo707

707vallejo707

NorCalLeftSideWe$tSide
Portable Vaporizers for concentrates are like the smartphones of today's generation. Nobody wanted internet on their phone until they realized how it revolutionized the way we live. Same with these concentrate pens the technology is only getting better and it speaks for itself. Plus look at what is inhaled before ash is left behind from combusted material vs with concentrates. I still enjoy a rolled one here and there but the concentrates just made things a lot cleaner. Keep in mind I've never owned a dab rig or torch in my life. So I wouldn't say I'm all about the "hype", but if you get a cleaner healthier alternative you can't knock it.
 
syrupy

syrupy

Authorized Buyer
the_cascadian said:
I think BHO is a symptom of the widening gap we place between ourselves and nature. No longer content with a simple beautiful earth flower, we must manipulate a perfectly perfect plant into something with more kick that doesn't resemble its natural form. It's just a brown drug substance after extraction, not a flower.
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I can see your point. Of course bongs and rolling papers aren't found in nature either. Guess people who rode buggies said the same thing when automobiles showed up. Sidenote: I guess the natural way would be to find huge crops of cannabis, cut a few stalks down, and turn the whole thing into a bonfire (was that from Mel Brooks?).

the_cascadian said:
Further, BHO seems to be all about image with most users I know. Their instagram accounts are filled with pictures and videos of them dabbing with their stylish rigs. Most of these people work at/run dispensaries. Is this medical marijuana?
Click to expand...

MJ culture is huge and growing. The newcomer douches tend to ruin things for the early adopters. I think your point says more about how people use instagram and FB than specific to one culture .

Edit: I take back the statement about bongs not being natural. At some point in history (after the invention of fire), I'm sure cave men could have placed cannabis flowers in a growing bamboo stalk that had collected rainwater...
 
HugieLewis

HugieLewis

I'm not an expert but I have a strong opinion
Ok...so here is my thing with concentrates. Personal opinion/observation here.

They are fucking awesome.

But....here is my worry. They have been getting a lot of attention in the media. Right now a good portion of people are getting on board with medicinal and recreational marijuana. I fear that when they see people on the news smoking what looks like crack, and houses blowing up from production, and ultra stealthy vape pens, these people are going to be less supportive. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I am. I do know that the first time my non-partaking wife saw me using an oil rig she kinda freaked. After I explained it she is (mostly) ok with all of it. Not every one is as understanding though.

That's my take anyway. Don't mind me. I am happily vaked and grilling out. Happy weekend everyone!
 
herbivore21

herbivore21

Well-Known Member
HugieLewis said:
Ok...so here is my thing with concentrates. Personal opinion/observation here.

They are fucking awesome.

But....here is my worry. They have been getting a lot of attention in the media. Right now a good portion of people are getting on board with medicinal and recreational marijuana. I fear that when they see people on the news smoking what looks like crack, and houses blowing up from production, and ultra stealthy vape pens, these people are going to be less supportive. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I am. I do know that the first time my non-partaking wife saw me using an oil rig she kinda freaked. After I explained it she is (mostly) ok with all of it. Not every one is as understanding though.

That's my take anyway. Don't mind me. I am happily vaked and grilling out. Happy weekend everyone!
Click to expand...
Everyone needs to get into QWET. far less risks involved, can be done with normal household equipment and some know-how (no vaccuum required) and easily results in wax/shatter. The way I evap my ethanol there is no chance of fire, I use only about 60ml of ethanol in a triple boiler where the container holding the ethanol solution for evap is surrounded by water. The worst thing that can happen is you spill your solution into the water.

Safety is simple with concentrates. It's all about thinking outside the box.

BHO can of course be safe though, but I can appreciate the quoted poster's concerns about people reacting badly to media hype surrounding BHO. Why don't we avoid the possibility of that hype and use the same grain alcohol that these hypocrites drink?

Sorry I'm a little bitter this morning haha
 
the_cascadian

the_cascadian

Well-Known Member
Again, my post isn't really geared towards the medical user. It's easy to pick apart what I'm saying, I understand that, but in no way is my post a finished product. I'm completely open-minded here, posting mostly just to have my ideas furthered and my own mind evolved through the involvement of other voices. So thanks for your input, everyone, it has been enlightening.

The most salient point here, and one I forgot to mention, is that which HugieLewis makes. As a proponent of legalization, I can't help but think that dabbing culture is hindering a move to wider acceptance.

Also, I guess the meat of what I want to know we won't know anytime soon, due to legalization issues and lack of research.
 
herbivore21

herbivore21

Well-Known Member
I understand man, but my medical need for cannabis is for persistent insomnia amongst other mental health symptoms. Flowers do not help me at all for sleep. Dabs do. We can't be allowing people to form a weird 'moderate' view that flowers are ok but concentrates aren't. There are benefits to each, in different contexts.

Speaking as a scientist, the lack of research is entirely due to UN conventions and federal governments. These could easily be changed to allow research, many countries ignore these and carry on researching anyway!

In the meantime though, I don't want people like me having to get back onto benzodiazepenes and stuff that will kill you just because the public are having the obligatory moral panic over concentrates!
 
Radio

Radio

stay true to yourselves
Very interesting point. When one ingredient is isolated from something that is otherwise naturally well-balanced; you get terrible products like morphine and vodka. Stuff that will mess you up. I don't know much of the negative effects of hash oil and the likes, but I see where you are coming from. Pure is better.
 
tuk

tuk

Well-Known Member
It's an interesting topic of discussion, but any drawing of lines will always be entirely subjective unless we are prepared to go all the way.......Quaker style!

Powerful hashish has been with us for 100s if not 1000s of years ...Yeh, ye olde hashisha is a concentrate, maybe even the first concentrate in the history of concentrates.

If we apply the logic(being discussed) fully, we should only be using unrefined plant matter from landrace strains grown in the wild under the sun with little or no cultivation? ....if we are happy with intensively cultivated, hybrid strains grown under light bulbs but then choosing to draw a line at...say dabs, that line is entirely subjective ....& most probably driven by current cultural fads/fears rather than anything rational/tangible.

Dabbing is the new Skunk?
 
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PPN

PPN

Volute of Vapor
I understand that you can dislike concentrates when you use it too much cause they kick hard but effect disappear quickly (this is true with BHO or similar concentrates but not really with kief or hasch).

When I discovr bho I dabbed a lot (at least 10g spent in 2 months, it's a lot for me), now I made one session per day (2 or 3 little dabs) of shatter and 2 sessions of reclaim or 2nd batch (reclaim with my nano and 2nd batch with my oil pens). So I use +1g of shatter/month , 2g of other less quality oils and several gr of kief!

The other issue with concentrates is the purity of the extract, I made my own so I know what I use to do it, but I'm working to purge it better from tane and I noticed it's easier to purge sativa strain and very dry bud extract (several months after cut it) cause they are more runny.
I stopped to do qwiso or qwet cause I wasn't able to get a nice taste, alcohol extract too much plant matter to got a good final product (I tried several times with bud and kief with different soaking time)
 
PPN,
DabComa

DabComa

Stuck in Dab Coma
the_cascadian said:
Not trying to start a fight, just some observations I've had about concentrates that will hopefully spur an insightful discussion.

For the truly ill, concentrates have a place, sure. But for the recreational user, I have several issues. First, one of the beautiful things about cannabis is its simplicity: it requires very little preparation after picking. Same goes for the coca leaf, a wonderful and safe drug when all alkaloids remain intact as a whole plant product. However, when the active alkaloids are extracted and the entourage chemicals left behind, cocaine is produced, which is a super-potent and addictive drug. Similarly, the opium poppy can be manipulated into an even more dangerous drug through extraction. Or fermented potato mash can be distilled into vodka. Obviously, cannabis is different, but a similar process occurs in the production of Marinol, which isolates THC. And the negative side effects of Marinol are well-documented. What is left behind in your typical BHO or ice water hash process?

Interestingly, and on a somewhat related note, I have noticed that drip coffee gives me a jumpy harsh buzz whereas french press coffee is smoother and more well-rounded. Paper filters limit the amount of insolubles in the final brew, whereas the wider pore mesh filter allows insolubles and solubles alike to mingle.

Cannabis extracts are a natural course for the marijuana-dependent after they have moved through the usual methods of intoxication. First, a joint suffices, then only lung-busting bong rips will get you off, and then, ahhhh, BHO, the wonder cannabis product. It's like getting high for the first time. But what happens once the body is habituated to huge doses of cannabinoids? What kind of effect does this have on withdrawal? Or psychological dependence?

Now this is where I might lose all of you:

I think BHO is a symptom of the widening gap we place between ourselves and nature. No longer content with a simple beautiful earth flower, we must manipulate a perfectly perfect plant into something with more kick that doesn't resemble its natural form. It's just a brown drug substance after extraction, not a flower.

Further, BHO seems to be all about image with most users I know. Their instagram accounts are filled with pictures and videos of them dabbing with their stylish rigs. Most of these people work at/run dispensaries. Is this medical marijuana?

OK, so I'm a bit biased. But no hate toward the dabbers out there, honest.
Click to expand...

I can see the OP's point, but there's one major difference to all your analogys that thc holds. Thc has been proven to not cause physical dependance, as where all your examples have in fact been proven to have physical and mental dependence in habitual chronic abusers. So naturally if you take and concentrate a chemical unable to cause dependence and withdrawls, thc, it will not suddenly develop the ability to cause dependence on an individual, other then a percieved mental addiction, which is more about the mind of the individual, and in that case would be likely to have an addictive personality as it is, in which case it isn't about the thc, that individual could easily find themselves "addicted" to something as simple as a brand of cookies. I don't find that most people I know go to oil because they get higher, it normally is a multitude of factors, with the most important intention being consuming a healthier product. A vaporizer does essentially the same thing. It vaporizes only the desired chemicals. Just without the seemingly complicated extraction process. Some would argue its better then using an extraction process. Personally, besides unbelievable taste, I consume oil with a vape pen because no matter where you are you can stealthily use it, and because it's vapor, it doesn't stick to your clothes and body and make you smell like pot everywhere you go. Overall the decision is up to the user, and either way your consuming the thc, so if given the choice why would one choose the filthier choice, for example, if I gave you two beers and told you I pissed in one (lol), beer 1 has some piss in it and beer number 2 does not contain piss, I garuntee every person reading this would desire beer #2. This basically is my perspective on concentrates. If given the choice between a product in its pure undiluted form, or the product mashed about with carcinogens, chlorophyll, and plant matter and waste, I'll opt for the cleaner choice, but to each their own, and like I always say, everything in life is perspective, and everyone has their own.
 
Detonator

Detonator

Well-Known Member
I like to drink milk. I love to eat cheese. Cheese is a concentrate....... Some don't like the cheese they have had cause cheese made incorrectly is not good, But where I come from they make great Cheese

Here in San Jose I'll take a fat dab of some of that clear shatter or some real nice honey comb thanks

The truth is bho has come a long way in the last 1.5 years I've been doing it.....

Depending on where you are you may be seeing at getting great clear shatter for 30$- 50-$ or 60-80$ a gr some are clear , some buttery, some taste like crap , some taste great....

or Honey comb for 24$ a gr or 40$- 50$ some good some not so good.... so it all depends......

then there is all that butter, sap, nectar, sugar , ---all different qualities and purity and prices........ some are good some are bad.

Learn to smell a good concentrate from a bad one and tell the dispensary when you got some crappy bho that taste like shit... then they will make sure they get something better the next time......

The quaily and price have gotten so much better here in the ;last year .. so hopefully it will also for you where you are.
 
Quetzalcoatl

Quetzalcoatl

DEADY GUERRERO/DIRT COBAIN/GEORGE KUSH
the_cascadian said:
Similarly, the opium poppy can be manipulated into an even more dangerous drug through extraction.
Click to expand...
Hehehe.... you know poppies themselves are actually more dangerous than morphine/codeine/thebaine by itself yeah? I remember the days I'd eat the pods and nod out for hours. I mean, like a solid 6-8 hours of being borderline unconscious and feeling like I'm floating in the womb. At least with pills you know exactly how much you have, with pods you don't know and are really just guessing at the opiate content.

The reason Marinol has so many side effects is due to the way it's dosed. Oral administration is kind of a crapshoot with cannabinoids if you're not binding them to, say, coconut oil and adding soy lecithin for bioavailability. People will take it and one day feel barely anything, then the next dose they ate a high-fat meal and then they feel it much stronger. Same thing with morphine, bioavailability can be raised by eating high-fat meals 1hr beforehand, which makes your body absorb it more readily equaling a stronger effect. That plus the fact that they isolated THC from all the cannabinoids and terpenes and flavonoids... they all work together to produce effects and if you strip all but one chemical from it, it's not gonna be the same. Unfortunately they haven't quite gotten around to understanding that, though Sativex is a THC/CBD tincture spray which seems to work much better than Marinol.

So what happens when you megadose cannabinoids for a long time? Besides your tolerance going up, I'm pretty sure (but have no scientific backing for this yet) that your endocannabinoid system downregulates itself. It's like how when you take opiates a lot and then stop taking them, your body stops producing as many endorphins and enkephalins. The whole "serious depression for months after a habit" thing is called PAWS, post-acute withdrawal syndrome, and it's pretty shitty. People are told to exercise, run, etc to get those endorphins/enkephalins going again to help them feel normal. Likewise I'm thinking that a similar thing occurs when using cannabis heavily and then stopping. Your endocannabinoid system downregulates due to the constant external cannabinoid exposure and so you stop producing nearly as many endocannabinoids.

All of the stuff that weed is good for, like insomnia, nausea, and appetite stimulation, you get the opposite of it when you stop/go through withdrawals. I know more than a few people that have been using for a while and after stopping they can't sleep or eat for some days... likewise when opiate-dependent chronic pain patients stop taking opiates they experience hyperalgesia (increased sensitivity to pain) as well as other side effects like getting the runs instead of opiate-induced constipation.

I don't particularly care for what people do with hash oil or other forms of concentrated cannabis (hash/bubble hash, kief, QWET, etc), recreational or not. We should be about harm reduction, at least I think so. Should people smoke weed instead of dabbing a tenth of a gram of oil? I don't think so, personally. Does the dabbing culture look bad? Guess it depends who you ask.

As an aside, going back to the poppy thing, people have been making laudanum (poppy/opium alcohol tincture) for a long long time. It wasn't that long ago, relatively, that pharmacies sold it. It's an extract as well but given the proper dose works as effectively/more so than just morphine, or just codeine. Hope some of this makes sense, I vaped some kief before writing this :razz:
 
aesthyrian

aesthyrian

Blaaaaah
I don't like smoking - so I don't do it.
Same with drinking alcohol and eating meat.

You don't like dabbing - don't do it.

We aren't going to change the world here, just our own personal environments that we exist in.

In 5 years dabbing will be more normal and some new method will come along for people to get hysterical about. I'm sure people freaked the fuck out about vapes when they first showed up. Whips, bags, stir tools, big ass electrical heating machines. :o

Good thing is, this is Cannabis. No one is going to die from OD. They may cough their ass off, get paranoid, and pass out. People actually die from other drugs, but lets all freak out about dabs?

So long as people can down shots at bars in public, we should not further hurt our movement by helping the media demonize a "new" Cannabis concentrate form that is still much safer than other legal drugs that no one ever talks about in the manner that they love to talk about dab culture.

Don't support the double standard.

Honestly, edibles are more dangerous than any Cannabis concentrate. But how often do we hear people being sensational about edibles? Since everyone has known about pot brownies since the 70's I guess they don't freak the fuck out, even though in CO some 19 year old ate an edible and went nuts and jumped out a 4 story window... Can't remember dabs being related to anything like that.

If you compare the methods of consumption I would say that dabbing is behind smoking and eating in terms of danger/negative health effects. Which, puts dabbing just ahead of vaping.
 
the_cascadian

the_cascadian

Well-Known Member
really interesting, Quetzalcoatl. I see your point, but I was speaking more on the difference between opium and heroin. I've had a reasonable amount of experience with poppies and never found them to be so strong...maybe it's time for another investigation :D

I'm second-guessing myself for even posting this here because to dab or not to dab is ultimately a matter of personal preference. I don't like dabbing, so I don't do it. Yet I fully understand the utility/appeal and am not necessarily opposed to the culture fully embracing concentrates.

I agree, it's ALL about harm reduction. And dabbing has to be much safer than smoking herb.

How does the flavor/effect of QWET compare to BHO and why have more people not adopted ethanol tek? lower yields?
 
2clicker

2clicker

Observer
the_cascadian said:
How does the flavor/effect of QWET compare to BHO and why have more people not adopted ethanol tek? lower yields?
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i have found the the flavor AND effect of QWET to be superior to BHO personally. i think most make BHO because of its popularity, or saw it on youtube, or are currently buying from a disp that carries it. id like to see more heads using ethanol. a lot of people would be very surprised i think.

concentrates in general should be used carefully. as with any "substance" really. honestly too much water will kill you. i use concentrates (and love them). basically i use them when i cant use flowers. they make a 10 min flower session last 1 min (or less). either way its cannabis and not likely to harm you.

fuck butane :rockon:
 
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