Discontinued herbalAire

[Hippie Dickie]

interesting, thanks.

so in the experimental setup, the heater tape, aluminum foil, et. al. are all outside the vacuum that holds the PTFE part being tested for outgassing?

 

[OF]

interesting, thanks.

so in the experimental setup, the heater tape, aluminum foil, et. al. are all outside the vacuum that holds the PTFE part being tested for outgassing?

Sorta. They are around the entire system, more toward gun sections and other critical areas, often not on pumping parts at all (if the 'differential pressures' when running are high enough). Fun stuff happens, like the last bit of water vapor takes advantage of that 107 degree angle between Hydrogens (it has a pole therefore) to cling to the walls long after normal gas laws should have them out in 'free vacuum'. So you can see a 'water spike' on the RGA (Residual Gas Analyzer, sometimes called a Mass Spectrometer). This guy 'weighs' the last few molecules of gas in the system. Water is easy to spot, as are remaining Oxygen, Nitrogen and so on. In fact, you can blow Helium around the outside and it will be drawn in at weak spots and give you a 'hit' at 4 amu (Atomic Mass Units, two Protons, two Neutrons). Since there is no He on the surface (it all escapes into space) any He you 'see' inside you put on the outside. This, for instance, is how they calibrate pop top cans. See how fast He will diffuse through the thin part of the metal while it's still 'solid'.

To do this you need a vacuum stand to get and hold the base vacuum at a 'pretty good' level. Far past what a mechanical pump like you'd use to fix your car's AC system can ever hope to give you. One scheme is to use a pot of boiling oil inside. The vapors rise (like our favorite vapor does) then fall back into the pot as they cool and condense. They trap gas in the process and drag it down so there's a concentration, kind of a 'fog' if you will over the surface of the oil you can suck off with a mechanical pump. Other schemes use very high speed turbines (like 70,000 rpm fast) to again condense the gas.
There is no pressure, the random gas rules call for a molecule to wonder in on it's own, you gotta trap it more often than not to get ahead. Also used are cryogenic pumps, they use very cold surfaces (typically 70K or so for the 'hot side' and 'high teens (like 16 17 degrees) on the cold stage. Gas molecules basically freeze on when they wonder too close. Once in a while you warm them up, drive the gas off in a bunch and pump it away. There are also chemical schemes, in fact the sliver coating (called a 'getter') on old style vacuum tubes is just such a schemes. If you look close inside there's a ring that held the chemicals until the envelope was evacuated and sealed, then a pulse of magnetism from the outside lights it off where it deposits itself on the glass to trap the odd atom of interest.

Many of these systems stay under vacuum for years on end as it can take months of pumping and baking parts out to finally get beam up.

Fun stuff, and such systems can be huge. Consider the Stanford Linac is two miles long. Cern's LHC is 12 miles in diameter. Now that's an electric bill.

OF

 

[OO]

No, thanks. I worked in "Big Science" for 20 years, and around the pioneers of accelerators before that. Amongst other sins. I'm pretty set in my views of science and research (both pure and applied).

In the case at hand, I've done a lot of vacuum work, much of it UHV (Ultra High Vacuum) where contamination at unbelievably low levels is a serious issue. Often at levels too low to measure directly. To get there you 'bake' such systems. Wrap it it heater tape and aluminum foil and lots of thermocouples and run the temperature up to force contamination (like say part of a stray finger print or a bit of dust or dander that settled in when open) to evaporate off faster. This is with 'full pumping' of course. Much like vaping THC in some ways. Typical high temps are 150C, sometimes up to 200 even. This includes PTFE parts. I know from long experience and superbly accurate instrumentation "nothing" is coming off the 'plastic' parts. Nothing with a vacuum profile. This is a known. Yes, it's pretty 'state of the art' but it's used every day in this sort of application. PTFE at those temperatures is not a (chemical) issue. It's inert for practical purposes, as glass would be. Or some metals. Yes, some metals won't work at this level, but PTFE does. I'm really pretty sure.

Folks are welcome to think what they want, within limits they can say what they wish as well I guess. Like science or think it's a sham, your call. Trust 'big business' because you trust the system, or be confident that everyone is a lying crook. And those that pretend to be in competition are secretly fixing prices behind your back. Your business. But when guys make statements like PTFE isn't safe I get to question that and give my reasons for doing so too, right? Those reasons will be based on experiments anyone can run should they care to as far as I can.

Thanks anyway, I'll stick with my illusion of science. Some will cling to religion too I guess.

OF

look, what you have done in the past is completely relevant.
what is relevant is that science is based upon narrowing down what is possible so that we may be able to understand our reality. things like "fact" are not scientific, by its nature, things that are learned from science are best guesses.

if you want to continue this discussion, i would be more than happy to do so over pm, i feel as though we may be dragging this thread off topic.

if you want to start a thread in another section, that is fine too, but we should allow this thread to return to its original topic, the herbie.

for the record, i love the herbie, and am confident the PTFE is safe for the application. my problem was with your phrasing of "scientific fact"

 

[Stu]

look, what you have done in the past is completely relevant.
what is relevant is that science is based upon narrowing down what is possible so that we may be able to understand our reality. things like "fact" are not scientific, by its nature, things that are learned from science are best guesses.

if you want to continue this discussion, i would be more than happy to do so over pm, i feel as though we may be dragging this thread off topic.

if you want to start a thread in another section, that is fine too, but we should allow this thread to return to its original topic, the herbie.

for the record, i love the herbie, and am confident the PTFE is safe for the application. my problem was with your phrasing of "scientific fact"

Without delving into the realm of Quantam Theory, 1 + 1 is 2, and no other "best guess" would satisfy the casual observer. There are best guesses and there are facts. I don't see the need for a spectrum between the two.

 

[OF]

lthings like "fact" are not scientific, by its nature, things that are learned from science are best guesses.

my problem was with your phrasing of "scientific fact"

I understand the idea, trust me I've heard it all before. A lot. Not all my friends were Physics majors, sadly more were Political Science majors..... I get it there are 'alternative perspectives', all strongly held, many religions of sorts even. Each guy is able to make his own choices here. Since you're having trouble with the term itself, let me offer an alternative? How about ".....facts established by the scientific method"? Does that work for you?

While I appreciate your offer to find true enlightenment off line, I'm simply 'a ship that can't be salvaged' here. I not only drank the cool aid for too long, I've lived in the belly of the beast and taught the evil doctrine to the young as well. For mere money no less. I have that 'Instructor attitude' in the area. Firm convictions about the validity of what I've taught (students really deserve no less don't you think?). My reality is made up of ideas about what reality is, carefully tested by well designed experiment and subject to review by the best minds available. Newton didn't question his base of 'reality' when he said, "If I see further than any man before it's because I stand of the shoulders of Giants". Like him, I trust those Giants. For better or worse.

I'm glad we both agree (each by our own 'reasonable standards') PTFE is safe in this application. That's the important part.

Thanks.

OF

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

Another question: How many of these scientific tests of teflon's safety have involved direct inhalation in order to determine safety standards. So far I have only seen results indicating that a pan in a open kitchen is safe up to 600f (though your pet birds might drop dead)... This is a far cry from that tefon being in the direct path of an inhalation tube. I ask because you seem to provide thoughtful answers and I genuinely wish to know. In medical science, you must have long trials with huge groups of people before safety is determined.

 

[OF]

Another question: How many of these scientific tests of teflon's safety have involved direct inhalation in order to determine safety standards.

There's some misunderstanding going on here. Safety testing (involving rats typically) establishes several levels of concern. You find these listed on MSDS sheets. OSHA type numbers. Safe for 8 hours, one time exposure, various 'uptake' methods, and so on. These are typically levels where half the population suffers (there really is no 'drop dead' line). It's 'aimed' at humans, not birds (or insects). That's one set of tests.

It's my understanding that such tests involve a modest (but reasonable) number of animals. The important issue is such data is (once again) 'peer reviewed'. It passes 'reasonableness tests' by experts and is open to confirmation.

I'm pretty sure nobody made lab rats vape from PTFE........

An entirely different set of tests determines what level of those substances is being produced under varying conditions. As you point out, for teflon that's usually a number way way past the temperatures we're working at. Not even the most dedicated naysayers claim problems at say 450 degrees AFAIK?

These are materials tests, not safety tests. You have to link the two to determine health risks. To find out if your gas stove is safe you need to test the stove to get data then compare that data to established (in other tests by different groups) to get 'the big picture'.

Bottom line is, at the temperatures we're working with here, basically zero 'toxic fumes' happens. The best scientific instruments available cannot measure it. "Empirical evidence" (in this case sensitive equipment that would not tolerate extremely small levels to function) says there's nothing there from the teflon or anything else in the vacuum.

CO2 is toxic at high enough levels. Your breath contains a few percent. Your breath is not toxic....well not by those standards anyway. In the PTFE case it's not a matter of 'a few percent' the number for all practical purposes is zero. Doesn't happen.

Believe what you want (or just prefer glass for any other reason), but by traditional measures there is no scientific reason for concern (by that I mean no experiment has shown it, including those designed to do so).

OF

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

Good to know. And likewise even glass can contain toxic stuff if you don't know it's source.

 

[OO]

Good to know. And likewise even glass can contain toxic stuff if you don't know it's source.

crystal, like the kind used for hookah's is made with lead oxide, but the chances of the lead solubilizing and incorporating itself into the water vapor is so highly unlikely (provided extensive cleaning prior to the first use), similar to the boron from borosilicate glass incorporating itself into your vapor. the quantities are insignificant. but i'm sure most just aren't aware of the existence of these compounds to begin with, so why worry their little heads.

if you want an interesting read, hop on over to wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_glass
knowledge is power.

 

[OF]

So, a week or so back I was going on and on about PTFE being safe at vaping temperatures and citing it's widespread use in vacuum systems as 'proof' no evil vapors come off, prompting HD's interest in such systems:

interesting, thanks.

so in the experimental setup, the heater tape, aluminum foil, et. al. are all outside the vacuum that holds the PTFE part being tested for outgassing?

It happens I came across an interesting PP 'slide show' that shows such a small vacuum system being 'baked out' and discusses some of this stuff:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...qy6qdZEAIKNm4cizA&sig2=tVbWUF5IjydYyliolYJ58g

You can see a lot of the typical gear used, including a taped up system being baked, and there's a discussion of materials used against baking temperatures, Teflon being listed as 'bakable to 200C'. FWIW this stuff is garden variety high vac stuff, the UHV stuff I was rambling on is much more demanding. No o-rings (gas diffuses slowly though them), no greased glass fittings (even the best 'vacuum greases' outgas way too much for UHV), Diffusion pumps won't pull hard enough and so on. Anyway, fun stuff.

OF

 

[Egzoset]

Euh...

So, no matter how safe Teflon/PTFE actually happens to be in this application, we can all reasonably assume that glass-containment starting right inside our HerbalAire crucibles can only represent some potential improvement of our safety margins when it comes to synthetic materials, irrespectively of whichever "religion" one might have endorsed...



At least it's a scenario where the "mod" won't possibly cause more harm, correct?? In other words there's nothing to fear, nothing to loose. Not unless there's teflon and teflon, that is!

I mean, "pure" teflon tape providing an air-tight seal away from the crucible's vapor path just doesn't face the same level of stress as that routinely endured by the main white teflon HA mouthpiece, right? If teflon/PTFE already appears to be safe in the later case (for most of us but a few "puri$t$" perhaps), then adopting similar glass mods should put a definite end to this never-ending controversy over synthetics - which is a thing about the HerbalAire i'm not sure has its equivalent elsewhere, IMHO.

 

[OF]

So, no matter how safe Teflon/PTFE actually happens to be in this application, we can all reasonably assume that glass-containment starting right inside our HerbalAire crucibles can only represent some potential improvement of our safety margins when it comes to synthetic materials, irrespectively of whichever "religion" one might have endorsed...

Sounds reasonable on the face, if there is any real threat to start, less is better.

It can also be a matter of scale. You can lessen your chances of getting HIV from your weed by using only hydroponically grown bud made with distilled water. Distilled water is also 'chicken soup' here, "can't hurt, might help". It's just the size of the 'might' I question.

Glass is great for those who want it. I don't see safety as an issue to concern folks into thinking they'd be better off that way safety wise. General Ripper in the true classic "Dr. Strangelove" had his reasons for drinking only 'pure grain alcohol and rain water', but at least he could actually measure something (or have it done) to improve. With PTFE at 200C the threat literally defies detection with gear that could measure it at extremely low levels if it was there. Amazingly small levels, really. "Ten to minus 18 torr" levels. Literally like a penny against the National Debt.

In the end we buy this gear to enjoy. If glass increases that for you, great, go for it. But l think we should be careful lest we lessen the enjoyment of others with safety concerns that aren't realistic threats?

Rehashing safety yet again wasn't my goal in posting the link above, it was more on the lines of answering curiosity questions about vacuum stuff.

OF

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

Holy Shit! 5 years of service. My Herbialaire just popped! No clue how, I picked it up, turned on the knob and it made a loud SNAP and I smell smoke. Now its done. Light turns on red then turns off. WAAAAHHHHHHH! Fuck, do I get another or do I by a cloud and risk my wife killing me?

 

[CentiZen]

Both. It's the only solution.

 

[vaplexus]

My Herbal Aire is working great (4 years) and i just ordered a Cloud with Swaggar Double. at the moment i typically use the solo.

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

Took it apart, put it saw nothing wrong. back together and ITS WORKING! The only think I can find is the green phase of the LED is burned out. This thing is a TANK!!!!

Likewise, I have noticed that you can get a little shock sometimes if you put your finger in the bowl while dropping in the herb/crucible. I suspect this is what led to the pop (some kind of ground fault or short). Anyhoo, any suggestions on potential ground fault?

 

[OF]

Likewise, I have noticed that you can get a little shock sometimes if you put your finger in the bowl while dropping in the herb/crucible. I suspect this is what led to the pop (some kind of ground fault or short). Anyhoo, any suggestions on potential ground fault?

Not good, shocks are not to be taken lightly. "Only 110 Volts" kills more people every year in the US than all other voltages combined. They shock you can 'barely feel' and the one that can stop your heart is a factor of about 100. The next one could be bad.

First thing to look for is is the socket correctly polarized. The longer slot should be neutral (the grounded side). There are cheap testers for this, IMO it's worth checking out. Otherwise always unplugging to mess with it, or only plugging into a GFI equipped outlet (like near a sink) makes it safe in the normal sense.

But yes, high performance LEDs like used here can make a festive resignation when they decide to.

OF

 

[robert denby]

Hey this happened to me too! I got an Herbalaire a year ago, and when i went to pop in the cruc I got a shock that made me toss the cruc across the room! I emailed Herbalaire and since it was brand new they just sent me a new one and told me to send the old one back. They even did the whole flight box warrentee style of sending the new one first (probably because i got shocked).

between us on the forum, I did still use it after the shock, i used a pair of rubber handled tweezers and dropped in the cruc and it worked fine!
still not what id call "safe" but if you want a quick work around until you get another one there you go

 

[Egzoset]

Salutations,

If the symptoms described can be shown to occur at an abnormally elevated rate then perhaps this is a sign of trouble indeed. Does the v2.2 carry the same "design trade-offs" as its v2.1 predecessor?? Even if the concept was rendered totally free of fundamental defects there's no garantee a last-minute modification on the factory floor won't trash the rest, etc. Yet, i sure don't understand why the HA has its heat-exchanger left "floating" (electrically speaking) while fully exposed. It's quite puzzling, if there's one statement i can make with confidence it's that the thought of a new customer getting shocked seems utterly wrong here.

Alternately, as for "safety" things are simple with an HerbalAire - if we can put aside electrocution risks, that is!! Ah! Ha! ... aHummm...



Well, in the vaporist sense i'd expect safety to mean prevention of combustion, next it would imply the absence of health hazards for all practical purposes. That's no big issue when using an HA (actually i'd wish mine to be equipped with a "boost" button, though). If i still had got plans for vaporizing salvia then i'd be forced to search around for alternatives but right now i'm at peace with my HerbalAire. Temperature is limited in at least 2 ways that i can think of: 1) an in-line "anti-fuse" device feeds power to the heating element directly, 2) a thermocouple sensor monitors the heating element. I've taken care of the teflon/PTFE matter a while ago and there's zero chance of combustion, so my HA is safe in the vaporist sense i guess.

 

[GratefulVapor]

I still am using my HA, much more often than my Cloud. I admit I do kinda feel weird about it. I absolutely love the VapeXhale Cloud(really..I do!)! I just feel much more 'at ease' when using my HA. Granted, I do have a pre-existing anxiety disorder, which is quite inhibiting in general. That may contribute to my higher anxiety about using my Cloud. I always run through glass, so its not that I am not used to this practice. It has a lot to do with prep. times, for I can load a crucible MUCH faster than an ELB. Empty one easier too. I also REALLY enjoy that the need to use a grinder, before medicating w/ flowers, isn't present when using the HA.
The HA is a winner in this guys book!

PS-I STILL LOVE MY CLOUD

 

[Egzoset]

Salutations GratefulVapor,

Perhaps if i owned one i'd want to evaluate my Cloud real often but chances are the herb might still end up being "pre-processed" in an HerbalAire standing next to it anyway - and here's why...

HerbalAire owners can choose their prefered mode of inhalation so i eventually discovered that i like to "sample" directly at 1st AND then to complete extraction otherwise if it suits me. A session always begins at 325-350 °F, at that stage only a negligible fraction of noble molecules will reach my lungs while removing all moisture remaining in the HA crucible. If taste/aroma are feeling good enough then i may just wish to raise temperature to 365-385 °F and enjoy until total depletion, if not then i'll consider:

a) always water-condition cannabic vapor in order to minimize coughing issues​

b) collect in balloon for later use/additional processing at a remote location and/or favourite "ritual" site!​

​

Even a less-than-perfect resinous load will collapse in a characteristic manner under finger pressure once sufficiently dry. Although no grinding is required i've recently made it a habit to pre-process practically all herbs with this in mind, especially the later ones. My assumption is that changing green buds into some fluffy/foamy ("aerial") peppered flour-like solid effectively shortens cannabic evaporation time by taking humidity out of the equation. My sessions now appear to have become more predictable as a result of the better controlled density/humidity characteristics, which in turn can be expected to affect air/vapor ratios positively IMHO... The trick is to keep dehydrating sessions very brief i guess.

Put shortly i benefit from HerbalAire's multi-mode inhalation feature and a curved Solo glass stem (from Arizer) fits my HA crucible so well it forms a reliable whip which doubles as a dehydrating tool i can insert/eject in seconds. So, my whole point today is about having equivalent glass accessories to handle the same tasks with comparable convenience but on a Cloud. Well, maybe i need to revisit the dedicated thread to find out for myself, after a few hundred pages... Hoping our present home thread never gets that long!...

 

[Egzoset]

A note to myself...

With this particular contraption:

Well, never pack to full capacity with potent stuff again!

 

[CheeseSandwich]

A note to myself...

With this particular contraption:

Well, never pack to full capacity with potent stuff again!

i also got one of those arizer tubes, what did you use to make it fit snugly into the HA?

 

[Egzoset]

Salutations CheeseSandwich,

...what did you use to make it fit snugly into the HA?

Plumber tape acquired at Canadian Tire stores. Now, guess what i've done!...


(Walmart - Sunbeam SU1400-CN Ultrasonic Humidifier)

It turns out 105 mm (4 1/8 in.) corresponds exactly to the diameter of a 2 liters soft-dring bottle if one knows where to cut:

Which proved to be convenient in such a case!

There's a small fan inside the nebulizer creating positive pressure, as a result it was necessary to prevent fog from reaching my HA while in standby - otherwise i'm afraid my herb would get moisturized before it's even vaporized! So, plugging my nebulizer tube to a bended ("J") one that's immersed under water, inside a bottle (working also as a mixing chamber), happens to work just fine: when i begin to inhale there's fog comming up the nebulizer's internal vertical column and it eventually enters the bottle, making bubble noise in the process... Tubing is 5/16 " (I.D.) 7/16 " (O.D.).

 

[CheeseSandwich]

that is awesome man!