The use of PTFE

[stardustsailor]

Google it.

No time for that .
I'd prefer some links .
I would like to check which clinical studies do state such fact .

https://secure.ewg.org/images/ewg_teflontempinfo_c02.pdf


(...) 10. With Or Without Teflon Coating: What To Pick?
When portable vaporizers came into being, their structure involved the use of polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE). This element has a simple name too, it’s called Teflon. And it comes in the form of a non-stick type of coating. (10)

But it didn’t take time for people to realize that Teflon has the ability to melt when in use. And working with such a device means exposure to dangerous gases and chemicals, even polymer fumes. The fumes, in particular, lead to the development of Teflon flu, medically known as polymer fume fever.

Fortunately, you don’t have to worry about this when buying a vape from a well-reputed brand. Most of these companies don’t use Teflon when manufacturing their products. Nevertheless, don’t forget to check if your choice of vape device includes Teflon or not.
(...)

https://www.jenreviews.com/vape/#10_With_Or_Without_Teflon_Coating_What_To_Pick

 

[sammuel]

@SpudBob When I mentioned the ptfe thing I was referring to the ptfe directly on the metal coil not the outer sheath around the ceramic. This picture shows what I was talking about.

https://imgur.com/a/bhhXt

I'm also wondering on the purpose of the little piece of tape shown here, especially given its small size and proximity to the heating rod ... Perhaps a mad scientist like @Boden can help/test it?

 

[mestizo]

No time for that .
I'd prefer some links .
I would like to check which clinical studies do state such fact .

https://secure.ewg.org/images/ewg_teflontempinfo_c02.pdf


(...) 10. With Or Without Teflon Coating: What To Pick?
When portable vaporizers came into being, their structure involved the use of polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE). This element has a simple name too, it’s called Teflon. And it comes in the form of a non-stick type of coating. (10)

But it didn’t take time for people to realize that Teflon has the ability to melt when in use. And working with such a device means exposure to dangerous gases and chemicals, even polymer fumes. The fumes, in particular, lead to the development of Teflon flu, medically known as polymer fume fever.

Fortunately, you don’t have to worry about this when buying a vape from a well-reputed brand. Most of these companies don’t use Teflon when manufacturing their products. Nevertheless, don’t forget to check if your choice of vape device includes Teflon or not.
(...)

https://www.jenreviews.com/vape/#10_With_Or_Without_Teflon_Coating_What_To_Pick

No time for it? I thought your health was important. And by the way, the studies were medical.

 

[dannydroid]

As far as I'm aware, only S&B have their device certified. Anything else

This is off topic anyway.

Anyone with a science degree in here? xD

 

[RUDE BOY]

As far as I'm aware, only S&B have their device certified. Anything else

MiniVap has health certification too

 

[jdent3]

As far as I'm aware, only S&B have their device certified. Anything else

This is off topic anyway.

Anyone with a science degree in here? xD

I have my B.Sc. I doubt the minivap, safe as it may be, has had any clinical studies done. It just isn't feasible for most vape companies to afford it. I wish vape manufacturers sent their vape to a lab for offgas testing before production. Maybe one day.

 

[RUDE BOY]

I doubt the minivap, safe as it may be, has had any clinical studies done.

Yes they have.

if you don't know don't speak, if you have doubts check it out.

 

[stardustsailor]

Yes they have.

if you don't know don't speak, if you have doubts check it out.

I think he knows better .

Searched the official minvap site .No medical certificates whatsoever ...
(unlike S&B** )

Moreover :


**
https://www.vapormed.com/media/root/pdf/vmm-certificate.pdf

https://www.vapormed.com/media/pdf/CB_Certificate.pdf

https://www.vapormed.com/media/pdf/Canada_MedicalDeviceLicence.pdf

https://www.vapormed.com/media/pdf/Israel_MedicalApproval.pdf

https://www.vapormed.com/media/pdf/volcano-medic-cert-ace.pdf

I'm still waiting for some links about minivap's clinical studies.
i could not find anything on the web about it.

 

[jdent3]

Yes they have.

if you don't know don't speak, if you have doubts check it out.

Still waiting for a link. There's a difference between a clinical study which takes time and is very expensive and a safety certification. Until I see a link I'm skeptical.

 

[dannydroid]

This is the first I've heard of minivap. A quick Google did not provide any medical certs.

Would you mind linking to their website / cert?

edit: too slow. Cheers Star <3

 

[analytika]

If your vaporizer hits 500F then you are smoking, not vaporizing.

Maybe in a conduction device. But in convection you heat the air enough to vaporize material a distance from the heating element. You're likely at 572 often, easily.

So it's fair to laud the minivap for materials safety here, while we're unable to discuss safety concerns about another product where everyone's watching, as units arrive on their doorsteps, where it's strike two for the company in question. Uhhhhh.

How serious is this? Focusing on the material:

(@stardustsailor originally identified this source)

"Studies show that thermal degradation of Teflon leads to the slow breakdown of the fluorinated polymer and the generation of a litany of toxic fumes including TFE (tetrafluoroethylene), HFP (hexafluoropropene), OFCB (octafluorocyclobutane), PFIB (perfluoroisobutane), carbonyl fluoride, CF4 (carbon tetrafluoride), TFA (trifluoroacetic acid), trifluoroacetic acid fluoride, perfluorobutane, SiF4 (silicon tetrafluoride), HF (hydrofluoric acid), and particulate matter. At least four of these gases are extremely toxic - PFIB, which is a chemical warfare agent 10 times more toxic than phosgene (COCl2, a chemical warfare agent used during World Wars I and II), carbonyl fluoride (COF2 which is the fluorine analog of phosgene), MFA (monofluoroacetic acid) which can kill people at low doses, and HF, a highly corrosive gas.

Many of the thermal degradation products are unmatched in their environmental persistence."

More at https://www.ewg.org/research/canaries-kitchen/teflon-offgas-studies#.WtdeTzNlD3B

 

[mestizo]

miniVap has a glass option, for those worry about Teflon, there, problem solved.

Maybe in a conduction device. But in convection you heat the air enough to vaporize material a distance from the heating element. You're likely at 572 often, easily.

So it's fair to laud the minivap, a contraption (albeit one no one's heard of) for materials safety here, while we're unable to discuss safety concerns about another product where everyone's watching, as units arrive on their doorsteps, where it's strike two for the company in question. Uhhhhh.

No one’s heard of the miniVap? Again, only the loading chamber has Teflon, but you can choose the glass option.

 

[TENZEN]

This is why I love FC. I just wanted to thank everyone for helping me make a more informed choice. I am canceling my order because there are too many other things to contemplate besides whats happening with my vape.

 

[dannydroid]

Let's just keep the discussion nameless, and talking about the use PTFE being used as an insulator on the outer ceramic core (of the bowl, I assume?), and as a thin buffer for the internal heating rod, in a vaporizer that can reach 500F.

(this forum software is shit for formatting btw..)

I'll post this again and highlight again the main issue.

"and as a thin buffer for the internal heating rod, in a vaporizer that can reach 500F."

I think we all agree:

- the use of PTFE as an insulator on the outer ceramic core = okay, whilst not ideal (in my eyes, you'll combust before you harm yourself).
- the use of PTFE as a thin buffer for the internal heating rod, in a vaporizer that can reach 500F = toeing the line between safe and not safe.

I don't believe the miniVap is fit for this discussion here (other than it too uses PTFE in a completely different way). So can we please keep on topic about using PTFE as a "buffer" close to a heating element.

 

[jdent3]

I'll post this again and highlight again the main issue.

"and as a thin buffer for the internal heating rod, in a vaporizer that can reach 500F."

I think we all agree:

- the use of PTFE as an insulator on the outer ceramic core = okay, whilst not ideal (in my eyes, you'll combust before you harm yourself).
- the use of PTFE as a thin buffer for the internal heating rod, in a vaporizer that can reach 500F = toeing the line between safe and not safe.

I don't believe the miniVap is fit for this discussion here (other than it too uses PTFE in a completely different way). So can we please keep on topic about using PTFE as a "buffer" close to a heating element.

I agree. The issue isn't just that ptfe is used. It's that it touches the heater. I am sure the minivap is safe as I've heard good thongs about it. This discussion, while it includes all vape is mainly focused on the Tera because it' the only vape I know of that uses ptfe directly on the heater.

 

[stickstones]

Here's a link to a summary of the minivap study and a write up about it. The summary has a general sound to it as opposed to directly quoting specific test results, and was written by the owner of minivap. I'll see if I can get something that looks more like lab results. But here's what they told me about the study when I asked some time ago:

"In terms of toxicology, it was tested for the potential leaching of the metallic and plastic elements of the MiniVAP under mild as well as stressed conditions in order to estimate the maximum exposure to potentially harmful substances by end users. Among the metallic parts, we measured the leaching of the aluminium foam (part of the heating core) and the steel parts (inside the sample chamber) that are directly in contact with the air stream. Among the polymeric (plastic) parts we measured leaching of the polyamide, silicone and Teflon parts that are in contact with the air stream, specifically focusing on the analysis of polyfluorinated (PFCs) and perfluorinated alkyl phosphates (PAPs)."

As someone mentioned above, I'd rather see independent lab testing like this than certifications all day long.

The use of teflon doesn't make a vape bad...it's about how it's used. Herbalaire and Minivap are two of the oldest vapes in the industry, and they both use teflon (minivap is one of only two vapes I know of to ever submit their vape to an independent lab for analysis, thus the claims of safety). Herbalaire uses it in their bowl, and I can't speak to their heater but it doesn't look like it's down there. The minivap, however, I know intimately. It has a teflon sleeve that houses the entire heater and heat exchanger. The entire heating system never gets above 445F, as we are trying to avoid 500F with a large degree of error. Teflon can handle temps of 480F, but 500F is above the limit for what the teflon in the minivap should be exposed to. Teflon starts melting and gassing a kind of white powder around 570F. I used to stay away from Teflon in my vapes until I started investigating and using the minivap. I'm now fully convinced it's a safe vape and doesn't get anywhere near concerning temperatures for teflon.

Personally, I'm not giving the Tera an automatic pass on this one. I need some more science and proof. I've asked for specs on the teflon and will be running them by people I consider to be experts in the field. But early versions of the Tera were running hot...that's why Troy got such massive clouds at low temp settings in his video review. My thermocouple readings in the bowl on early Tera builds were way over the set temps. With an extract setting of 500F and the need to go at least a little higher to reach that in the bowl, we just don't have much room for error unless they are using something that is rated higher than what I'm used to working with. I think the use of teflon in this configuration is questionable at best, and in an area where I'd rather see nothing at all.

 

[MinnBobber]

RE miniVAP medical:

It was originally developed for medical cannabis users, company felt there were no safe devices for med users/

Hermes Medical, in 2011 the miniVap underwent its first evaluation “from Bedrocan’s MGC (University of Leiden, The Netherlands)”. That gives me confidence that the device has been made with inert and heat resistant materials suitable for vaping.

Only Volcano, Mighty, miniVAP have Univ of Leiden med certif as far as I know.

 

[graydeh1]

Ill be skipping this unit due to the recall and now the use of a suspect material around the heater.

 

[stardustsailor]

Personally speaking , if the :

a ) air path
b ) load chamber / heater
&
c ) the vapor path ,

in a vaporizing device are not made from
this short list of materials :

-Titanium Grade 1 & Grade 2
-Stainless steel 3xx series
-Quartz
-Sapphire / Ruby
-Borosilicate glass
-Gold

then the vaporizing device it's ruled out .

I use vaporizers every single day ,multiple times per dia .
I would like to keep the health risk factor as close to 0% ,as possible.

Vaporizers ,especially the electronic ones ,are quite novelty devices.
It will take some time ,before any "bad news " hit us.

Thus ,since I'm quite aware of various material tech & safety ,
I like playing on the safe-st side .

PTFE is a major "no-no " material for my personal "taste" and health hazard standards .
No matter where it's located and no matter how it's used .

Cheers.


P.S. : There are some modern tech & safer temperature resistant polymers ,
than PTFE .
One example is Zytel FG (Food Grade ) , from Dupont .

http://www.dupont.com/products-and-...lications/food-contact-material-products.html

 

[kimura]

I lol'd @ "nobody has ever heard of the miniVAP"

the heater may exceed 500*F but if the actual teflon core did, it would burn the load. you can load the mV directly and it will never scorch, so I don't think that's happening

also the point may be moot as miniVAP is phasing out the teflon in favor of PEEK

I'm guessing this change is probably due to consumer fears about the safety of PTFE, despite the fact that it's probably not an issue in the mV

 

[Fat Freddy]

Personally, I'm not giving the Tera an automatic pass on this one. I need some more science and proof. I've asked for specs on the teflon and will be running them by people I consider to be experts in the field

Thank you for doing that! Given the "track record" of the Tera there may not be many first adopters of the 2nd edition Tera. And those that are early adopters may not be members here at FC and therefore we will have limited feedback on this unit.

From what I've read, Quality Control and Quality Management in China is a nightmare for American expats to manage. I would doubt that our friends at Boundless Technologies LLC, and other vape manufacturers like them, have the personnel and other necessary resources to maintain effective QC and QM activities in China.

The bottom line for FC members: I think we need to proceed cautiously on this one.

 

[sammuel]

Here's another pic of the said PTFE tape piece (it's the one in the middle)

And it appears like the question of its purpose/safety remains until clarified

Edit: By 'purpose' I mean why is this tape supposed to be there in the first place? I'm curious why does the heating rod need a "buffer" between it and the metal piece? I'm no scientist but the metal is not going to melt, so why is this (little) piece of tape required there?


*Image is from puffitup's teardown Link: http://blog.puffitup.com/2018/04/tera-down-the-boundless-tera-vaporizer-teardown/

 

[analytika]

I lol'd @ "nobody has ever heard of the miniVAP

yes I said a stupid thing unrelated to the point I was making. I'm too new to industry circles. Working to change that, fast.

 

[bostonthrowaway7721]

From an engineering standpoint, you want to be pretty conservative about your safety factor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factor_of_safety) here, and PTFE as an insulator in this application is concerning.

Wrapping an oven whose max temp is 500F in PTFE is a safety factor of, at best 1: the device can reach the temperature at which Bad Things happen. (polymer degradation, offgassing, whatever). At worst, the SF is < 1; the device exceeds the material specs in normal use. (In civil engineering, this is when bridges start falling over. Best avoided, really.)

Normally, I design things to have a SF of at least 3: so the insulator around the oven should be able to hit 1500F without failing. Historically, ceramics are a good choice here; some are even machinable.

 

[Summer]

For whatever it's worth ... or not.

Birds have the most sensitive respiratory system of any creature. Maybe because they have lungs & air sacs.

https://www.petcoach.co/article/respiratory-system-of-birds-anatomy-and-function/

Forget the bottom pic.