Vapman

[Doktor Dub]

Maybe sent them a list of all other producers in the segment

Yeah, that would be really nice and friendly.......

And believe me, german bureaucracy has enough ressources to write letters to all producers of Vapes...

But i am with you, the room for personal interpretation is f....

 

[Hogni]

if i remember right, @Hogni realized the implications of this new law quite some time ago and there is a thread about it... we should have listened...

That thread of mine regarded to the newer FDA regulations not to German laws.

@vapman , please send me your convo with German customs. I'm a professional in German laws but never heard about a new regulation that would prohibit such devices. For a judical review I would especially need the mentioned infringements stated in the Control Notice.
Just interested in that case w/o costs for you

 

[VapourHaze]

Haven't dipped in for ages, wanted to say that I have re discovered my love for the vapman again recently after not vaping so much for awhile. It really is a King amongst men.

I hope Rene can solve this problem, maybe i shall finally order a station?

@vapman are you still shipping to UK as we 'speak' I don't for-see any issues shipping here personally?

Thanks

 

[Hogni]

P.S. Guess you've hurt some of the new EU obligations of labeling and information? That would be no serious problem. If so you'll have the same probs with all other EU countries the next times. Germans and Austrians are just a bit more "typical German" regarding regulations and so a bit faster than others.

 

[vapman]

please send me your convo with German customs. I'm a professional in German laws but never heard about a new regulation that would prohibit such devices. For a judical review I would especially need the mentioned infringements stated in the Control Notice.
Just interested in that case w/o costs for you

There was only the note "not permitted" sticking on the returned parcel. This was the main problem for us, we didn't know what the f... goes on. It took weeks and weeks to finally receive an answer and the answer was the one I copy pasted above. Not long after, a parcel came back from Austria with this note attached:

@vapman are you still shipping to UK as we 'speak' I don't for-see any issues shipping here personally?

Thanks

Yes, we ship to all countries, which are on our list as long we can!

vapman

 

[Hogni]

Sorry, that doesn't make absolutely no sense! Your sticker regards to "Tabakwaren" that means tobacco goods. That are ONLY products made out of tobacco leafes like cigarrettes, cigars, cigarillos, smoking tobacco incl. chewing tobacco and snuff by legal definition - and NO devices for consumption.

And § 30 TabStG regulates all stuff that is tax privileged.

Perhaps you better should send me the whole convo in copy? There must be more or they didn't know what they've done

EDIT: That only was the Austrian Sticker. What did German customs tell you?

 

[Shannock]

Surely with this very harsh interpretation of law Germany and Austria are soon to be experiencing an apple shortage!

Joking aside I am hoping @vapman can get this sorted!

 

[simpleasthcis]

Other options if you don’t like apples

A lovely pair

 

[OF]

Other options if you don’t like apples

Potatoes are also traditional. But you end up hating the British and trying to speak Gaelic if you do it too much. And wearing green clothes.

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail, I see this as a couple of dedicated agents trying to make the best call they can, I see no real attack on our vapes. Yet.

It occurs to me you can drip some 'juice' into your handy hair dryer and make lots of vapor? Perhaps they should be banned...... Mustn't play favorites you know.

OF

 

[vapman]

Perhaps you better should send me the whole convo in copy? There must be more or they didn't know what they've done

I think they know exactly what they are doing! Three parcels getting busted at three different customs in two different countries can't be a coincidence, no way!
I don't have another choice than turning to the Swiss chamber of commerce, negotiations with customs in two different countries and two different states in Germany is a hamster wheel. My argument is simple and plausible: either all or no vaporizers are banned, definitely not vapman only!

I hope you guys don't mind if vapman starts a world wide trade war? I am making jokes in a serious situation but crying doesn't help either.

And if anyone thinks, that it is just a question of declaration, then you have to think again. Imagine, it would be a question of labeling your own product only, the whole new law could be bypassed with the right words and that is very unlikely. I only wish it would be as easy as that.

I am waiting for the answer of the Swiss chamber of commerce, that will be crucial!


vapman

 

[Hogni]

But there are no vapes banned in the EU!

And what do you want from the Swiss chamber of commerce?? EU laws are no matter of the Swiss.

Sorry, I would like to help you but i can't without the WHOLE convo. So I can't recognize their - right or wrong - argumentation. All you've published here about their decision doesn't make iuridical sense at least.
Feel free to pm me.

 

[gunmetalshark]

@Hogni

I think that it relates to this :

https://diepresse.com/home/wirtschaft/verbraucher/5190869/Urteil-zu-EZigaretten
https://diepresse.com/home/wirtscha...haft/verbraucher/5190869/index.do&selChannel=

Because here´s what vapman posted :

.... Da die Temperaturregulation bei dem betroffenen Produkt dadurch erfolgt, wie lange eine Flamme an die Kupferpfanne gehalten wird, ist es sehr wahrscheinlich, dass damit Temperaturen über den Siedetemperaturen der beiden üblichen Lösungsmittel Glycerin und 1,2-Propandiol von nikotinhaltigen E-Liquids erreicht werden. ...

and

Bei der Definition für die elektronische Zigarette kommt es im Sinne des Tabakrechts nicht auf die Zweckbestimmung an, die Eignung ist schon ausreichend. Somit fällt das Produkt unter das Tabakrecht und kann aufgrund der in der Kontrollmitteilung angegeben Verstöße nicht freigegeben werden."

so basically they say that it is actually possible to heat up high enough to vaporize Glycerin (290°C) & PG (188,2°C) and has therfore to be seen as "tobacco product" ....that is NOT the case with most electric powered devices like S&B...but that would also mean that everything that gets or is possible to be heated up by torch (or at least above 290°C) will be illegal (Vapcap i.E. aswell)

Funny Thing is, this just applies for online sales..they even state if u want to sell...open a shop..lol
Maybe they next big thing they forbid are teaspoons since they can also get heated up beyond vaporisation temps





Would that make any sense, there were elections in Austria & Germany not long ago...maybe they are more critical now...?

 

[vapman]

And what do you want from the Swiss chamber of commerce?? EU laws are no matter of the Swiss.

Switzerland is not member of the EU but we have bilateral trade agreements with the EU. Basically, Switzerland has the same trading rights in the EU as the EU in Switzerland. If S&B can sell vaporizers to Switzerland, then we should be allowed to sell vaporizers to the Germany and Austria, simple as that!
This is where I am putting my finger now, to the spot where it hurts most and these are the trade agreements between Switzerland and the EU. Imagine, Verdampftnochmal in Berlin is still selling vapman online and at the same time, vapman is declared illegal at the German and Austrian customs!

vapman

 

[vapman]

@gunmetalshark: e-liquids vaporize more or less at the same temperature as any herbs! All vaporizers can vaporize e-liquids, glycerin and pg's are organic substances and not some sort of metals with high melting points. Easy to try out, just add a drop of liquid to your herbs and you can see how well these liquids vaporize at these temperatures.

vapman

 

[Hogni]

That's the thing I don't understand. There are prohibitons/restrictions regarding cross-border online trade of e-liquids and e-cigarettes within the EU but not for manufacturers/wholesalers to retailers just between retailers and end customer (distance sales). So it's primarely an issue for your retailers only and for you just if you intend to deliver directely to end customers.
The EU directive is transferred to national laws by each EU state themselves with different juridical results. It's a bit difficult (especially - so take my pardon in advance - to translate technically jargon for me) and differs from country to country but i can explain it if wished.

But read this in english as a first overview and check the countries you want to deal with for links for TBC registration

 

[vapman]

This makes sense, may be we are not allowed to sell directly to end customers in some countries anymore?
Why didn't tell us anybody about this? Could you tell me which countries in Europe are affected by this new law? Is it Germany and Austria? What about the States? I think this would be a valuable info for all members and the right place to publish a list of countries, which implemented new tobacco regulations.

Thank you,

vapman

 

[Hogni]

For sure.

Unknown situation up to now: (EU directive still not transferred to national law)

- Iceland
- Croatia
- Slovenia

Generally forbidden:

- Belgia
- Italia
- Austria
- Poland
- Spain

Allowed or restricted by TBC (see also link above)

- Germany
- Danemark
- France
- Ireland
- Malta
- The Netherlands
- Norway
- Sweden
- Slovacia
- Czechia
- UK

Delivering to end consumers needs a TBC registration in EACH country you want deliver to before shipment. Otherwise you have to aware a penalty fee. Links for each registration administration you will find in the english link above.

If your called cancled deliveries were adressed to end consumers you probably have to pay a penalty fee, if they were adressed to retailers a fee wouldn't be right. Cause of it's a new legal situation I would ask for forgiveness. Perhaps it does work - probably not. If you should need a translation to German I' d do so for you.

If you want to know more just ask.

Who should tell you about if not your local retailers?

 

[splitz]

Vapman with Bubblehash to add a little brightness to this page :-)

 

[Kozzmozz]

Any updates on those pesky burocrats @vapman?

 

[vapman]

Any updates on those pesky burocrats @vapman?

Finally we received an answer from the Swiss administration, telling us to sort things out with the German authorities. Of course, this is no help at all. Last Monday, I wrote an email to the German department of
health and consumer protection, asking to clarify the confusing situation which is affecting us since weeks.
It is the department, which wrote the email I published here before. My simple question is: why are our parcels refused while shops in Germany are still selling vapman without having to adjust to the new tobacco law? This simple question seems to be a challenge, as we haven't heard a word since. I decided to wait another few days before I will put more pressure on them.

Our situation on the German and Austrian market is bad and can't get worse! Nothing left to loose is an another word for freedom and I will use this freedom to the very end, without regard to any losses on the right nor on the left, my word!

vapman

 

[Kozzmozz]

Finally we received an answer from the Swiss administration, telling us to sort things out with the German authorities. Of course, this is no help at all. Last Monday, I wrote an email to the German department of
health and consumer protection, asking to clarify the confusing situation which is affecting us since weeks.
It is the department, which wrote the email I published here before. My simple question is: why are our parcels refused while shops in Germany are still selling vapman without having to adjust to the new tobacco law? This simple question seems to be a challenge, as we haven't heard a word since. I decided to wait another few days before I will put more pressure on them.

Our situation on the German and Austrian market is bad and can't get worse! Nothing left to loose is an another word for freedom and I will use this freedom to the very end, without regard to any losses on the right nor on the left, my word!

vapman

We stand by you René, if you wish some help at any point, I'm positive you will get a lot of response.
Heck, we can even sign some sort of petition

Hang in there.

 

[vapman]

Thank you @Kozzmozz!

 

[Dynavaper]

What a shitty situation! Lots of positive vibes to you, my gut feeling tells me that everything will be good in the end. But how unfortunate that you have to go through this, that is not deserved!

 

[Hogni]

I don't see any confusing situation of laws. What didn't you get?

There are two points to pay attention:

1) Is the VapMan an e-cig or may regulations apply analogue to vapes which are able to use with (trates) liquids? Probably there are internal instructions for German and Austrian customs to apply the regulation analogue to it. You should appeal (Widerspruch) against their decision for a new decision. Even a simple spoon is able to vaporize liquids if heated long enough with a flame so what?

2) You can send your devices to Germany (not to Austria) after registration with no issues. For sure German retailers can sell their stuff in Germany bc there is no cross-border sale. And Germany is in the EU. How should European customs control parcels from Germany to another EU state? They have to create a "blacklist" of retailers who could cross-border send e-cigs within the EU and check the parcels of them.

It's not so easy for me to explain the situation in english. If you are speaking German send me a pm or we can call. Then I can expain it to you en detail.

 

[KidFated.]

The vapman is one of those vaporizers that gives that full bodied taste and effect from the vapor. And it feels so damn elegant.