New EU regulations on cross-border trade of vapes!!

[Hogni]

Attention, manufacturers and vendors!
There are some new EU regulations on cross-border trade of vapes to/within the EU which can cause a lot of trouble for you if you don't care.
Note that we are only speaking about trade to END CONSUMERS. If you have retailers in those countries, who you deliver to you are fine.

Some days ago @vapman told about troubles he got with German and Austrian customs the last days. Both customs refused to deliver some packages with Vapman parts from him to end consumers in their countries. They wrote him it's forbidden and he has to aware a penalty fee - what happened?

In 2014 came the Directive 2014/40/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council concerning the manufacture, presentation and sale of tobacco and related products incl. e-liquids and e-cigarettes.

All member states had to transfer the Directive to national tobacco laws. Most EU member states did so up to now with different results. Main point in interpretation of the law - at least so far known in Germany and Austria - that all vaporizers which are able to vaporize e-liquids ARE VIEWED AS e-cigarettes and so are covered by the new law. Customs looked at Vapman's site and saw there that the Vapman is able to vaporize "liquids". "It can do liquids? Ok, that are also e-liquids and so this device IS LIKE an e-cigarette and so covered by the law!"
And what does the regulation say? Cross-border trade of e-cigarettes to or between member states of the EU are forbidden or at least restricted.

Unknown situation up to now: (EU directive still not transferred to national law)

- Iceland
- Croatia
- Slovenia

Generally forbidden w/o exception (in these countries you NEED a local retailer to avoid troubles)

- Belgium
- Italia
- Austria
- Poland
- Spain

Countries where cross-border trade to end consumers is allowed but restricted by nesseccary registration before trading

- Germany
- Denmark
- France
- Ireland
- Malta
- The Netherlands
- Norway
- Sweden
- Slovakia
- Czech Republic
- UK

Note: Delivering to end consumers needs a registration in EACH country you want deliver to before shipment. Otherwise you have to aware a penalty fee and your stuff will be sended back to you.

Links to each registration administration so far known you will find here

Hope I could help - Keep on vaping!

 

[VapCap]

Thank you for this! It is very useful and unfortunate.

We will look into this further.

Cheers,

George

 

[5210630772]

I feel this new directive to be a BIG PEICE OF SHIT!

Are we, Europeans, truly walking towards a single market? As I see it now, we are walking to a BIG PIECE OF SHIT. At the moment, I can't order (LITERALLY) any Dynavap item. I am in Spain, and I thus will have problems no matter who I order from (either Dynavap in the US or any non-Spanish EU retailer). As far as I am concerned, there are no Dynavap retailers in Spain. Does this mean I have to change the vape I use once mine stops working or fails? I am utterly ashamed of being European today (and also really sad). FUCK THE EU. Spanxit now!

 

[Dutch-Mic]

Customs looked at Vapman's site and saw there that the Vapman is able to vaporize "liquids". "It can do liquids? Ok, that are also e-liquids and so this device IS LIKE an e-cigarette and so covered by the law!"

The reasoning is so painfully weak. If you, for instance, change e-cigs for 'weapons', then producers of cutlery would be in trouble because a knife and fork could potentially be used as a weapon?

can't order (LITERALLY) any Dynavap item. I am in Spain, and I thus will have problems no matter who I order from (either Dynavap in the US or any non-Spanish EU retailer).

Could a "FC network" be a solution? Someone from another country buys the items and sends them to you? Kinda like a middle(wo)man without the intention of making a profit.

 

[phattpiggie]

I can understand them being able to clamp down on imports coming into the EU but cross borders within Europe?
What borders, you are all supposed to be one big happy family.
Makes no sense.
I can't buy a VM from Switzerland and pay to have it shipped but I could drive there, buy one and bring it back with no problems?
It's very fukd up.
I look forward to Brexit and seeing what kind of shit show we are in for.
A retailer in every country is going to be needed.

 

[Hogni]

At least in countries without the possibility of exceptions by registration.

De facto it'll not get such a big prob within the EU because of rare controls. So I know from EU retailers they don't intend getting registered in hope of nearly no controls within the EU. That's the way also customers in "No exception" states will get their stuff in the future.

@phattpiggie, we have to wait for the consequences of the Brexit. I guess an EU exclusive retailer in the UK won't be the best choice for the EU market in the future. Also you shouldn't send your packages with a Bill.
Wrap your stuff in some gift wrap and write a "Happy Birthday" card and you should be safe. Invoice only per e-mail. Customs only shouldn't get you on their radar as a manufacturing seller/vendor/professional trader.

 

[phattpiggie]

@Hogni so far it's been okay.
From the beginning I've marked the customs label as 'gifts' and 'pen stems' and always at a value of €15 so no taxes to pay.

Once we are out of Europe I may have to review my options but I've got EU retailers asking for wholesale already so I won't have any problems.

 

[blokenoname]

Well... me MistyPine cannot do e-liquids

But something must be up again re e-ciggies, the great scourge of our time, as it seems. Just got a mail from Sony, warning severely against use of their 18650 cells in e-cigs, as most obviously, the same circuits and chips that protect against thermal runaway in torches, battery powered drills and whatnot somehow stop magically working, whenever confronted with the inherent evil of a box mod housing or seeing an e-ciggie from afar

 

[KeroZen]

@blokenoname: because too many people use mods with little to no protection.

In torches most people use protected cells. In power tool battery packs, there is always a proper BMS and balance charging circuit. Sony has always been clear: only for sale to OEMs assembling packs (ie. cell + BMS) and by extension protected cells (which have the BMS under the button top)

 

[hopla]

i suppose that an "Aromatherapy" label to avoid the tobacco "etiquette" and distinguish e-liquids and all combustion related devices from our healthy habit is superfluous?
And to think that the health argument should differentiate the vaporisers made by Dynavap, StickyBrick etc. and all the other products like pipes and other accessories related to combustion.

 

[Hogni]

Well... me MistyPine cannot do e-liquids

But something must be up again re e-ciggies, the great scourge of our time, as it seems. Just got a mail from Sony, warning severely against use of their 18650 cells in e-cigs, as most obviously, the same circuits and chips that protect against thermal runaway in torches, battery powered drills and whatnot somehow stop magically working, whenever confronted with the inherent evil of a box mod housing or seeing an e-ciggie from afar

Possibility of vaping tobacco is enough. Prob is the interpretation of the laws in each country. Maybe a lawsuit against decisions of customs will be necessary if the restrictive interpretation of the laws by customs is going on. As I said before, a spoon filled with e-liquid and heated can be a vaporizer too.

@phattpiggie, It's enough being registered in the country of the residence of your retailer.
Otherwise, you can do the registrations for each country you intend to deliver to yourself to avoid costs for retailing. Perhaps in the end much cheaper? Registration addresses are linked in the first post.

 

[blokenoname]

Possibility of vaping tobacco is enough. Prob is the interpretation of the laws in each country. Maybe a lawsuit against decisions of customs will be necessary if the restrictive interpretation of the laws by customs is going on. As I said before, a spoon filled with e-liquid and heated can be a vaporizer too.

Ja. I know Who cares if the glass can also hold lemonade, when you can put beer into it!?
Don't take me whole quip there too seriously. Just a bit unnerving to be confronted with yet another hurdle (and more costs) to deal with, when just considering putting another vape onto the marked. While safety regulations are good and necessary, the whole thing seems to get out of hand. I mean... up to 10k for CE alone!? Best chance to get my little loggie (once its refined enough) in fairly limted numbers to a limited number of folks is probably selling it as a work of art anyway and not as a regular business at all. And that also needs a lot of digging into first, to get all the ins and outs.
And then up comes the next s**t, with the e-cig restrictions

 

[Hogni]

By the way here is another older thread on newer FDA regulations I opened before. Could be much more dangerous for the US vape industry than the bothersome but not very serious probs with EU customs.

@Wittgenstein 's VC parts were provisionally arrested by German customs and he got an administrative decision that German customs is viewing DV parts as an "illegal" tobacco device. He wants to appeal against this notification. After checking it legally I'll support him. We'll see. IMO there are some legal aspects that VC parts aren't tobacco devices as subjects to this law. Maybe also a legal test case could be useful but therefore we have to wait for a refusal first.

Please contact your favorite vape manufacturer, vendor or retailer (also in the EU!) about this legal issue and if you like give them an advice to this thread!

Could be useful to have a platform here to exchange experiences with customs and legal classifications of different parts by all the different customs in the EU.

 

[KeroZen]

If they don't claim they are e-cigs, they'll say it's cannabis paraphernalia and it will be even worse... they are not stupid, they just have to google the product name to understand what it's for. And since nearly all Europe is still living under strong prohibition... The aromatherapy only gets you so far, but personally I'm not buying it.

The best (and most silly) solution would be to have everything shipped from China, since Customs don't have sufficient capacity to sift through it... would be like a needle in a haystack. Under-declaring the value works, but it's illegal for the seller in most countries and can cause problems with taxes etc, and if the parcel is lost you're only insured for what you declared.

 

[Hogni]

It doesn't matter. Paraphernalia are legal in Germany and they can think what they like, who cares.

 

[KeroZen]

Not all European countries are as tolerant as Germany my dear.

 

[Hogni]

Tolerant? There are others more tolerant but you are right, a lot is less. But for sure customs in Germany is one of the most dutiful customs in Europe.
And their own web presentations really often are a stumbling stone for manufacturers and vendors.

1. Customs checks the sites for real prices (therefore declare changed, lower prices in your attached invoices as "special sale", "factory second", "RMAed device" or something else, not as a regular price customs can check on your site at once)

2. Customs checks the sites for statements about use for tobacco a/o liquids. Both or similar words are stimulus! Bad words! Don't use them! Better say "This product is not suited to be used with tobacco!! Or something else - in right English ;-)) So check your sites for that in your own interest.

 

[Mr. Whitewall]

As far as I am concerned, there are no Dynavap retailers in Spain.

I know of one! ...PM'd

Regarding customs, we all have the same regulations for our common market, some are applied differently locally because VAT rates vary from one country to another.
Spain, for example, has some of the highest with 31% but that isn't the EU's fault, that tax is applied by the local country. Some countries still apply their own legislation, on top of that... Schengen laws aren't a requirement, just an agreement.

It is both funny and sad to see people complain about the EU over competences sovereign countries for decades have fought hard to retain in Brussels.
It is the lack of union that produces these situations, because every country has a different interest. Not the other way round!
Then people blame "the EU" about stuff their governments have actively sabotaged for years... Problem is, we just don't really give a fuck what happens there as citizens, we vote just anybody to go to the EU Parliament to do whatever and then we reap the rewards, locally.

I also think there is no need to bash the EU for regulating the e-cig market, as they regulate all markets.
Cannabis vapes are kinda fringe, lets admit it, and without any lobbying or promotion of Cannabis health benefits we're still stuck in a prohibition-based market, with laws according.

What would be more productive IMO, is to complain to our local activists for being a bunch of lazy stoners and getting off their asses to a European level and getting things done. First and foremost for therapeutic patients for obvious reasons, then full legalisation will follow soon after, as it has happened in many places already.
Well, I'm no activist, or fortune-teller, but what is clear is that our local politicians do not currently have the vision nor ambition to accomplish this.

 

[Hogni]

It's always national law in all the different EU states. The EU only sets legal frames all member states have to convert to their own national laws. That's also the reason for different laws in this case, where some states say no cross-border-trade in no way while others say it's allowed if the foreign trader is registered before.

 

[Mr. Whitewall]

Yes, that's what I meant (or tried to) different regulations, same framework so we get different results of course. That is the end result of division, not union.
Then again, it is not how the EU works, its how states made it work. So any blame should go to our governments, don't you think?
Even in Brussels, Strasbourg, etc, its still our politicians politicking, not a bunch of Martians spewing diktats.

Sorry for the rant but I simply don't get all this EU bashing when ultimately its all that shelters us from dangerous extremists that only want to destroy 50 years of honest hard work without proposing any serious, credible alternatives beyond fear-fuelled hate and total nihilism, to sum things up in three lines. Apart from a return to nationalism yes, but, as F. Miterrand said: "Nationalism is war" as we have learned in our previous 500 years of common history.
...Especially when it is to complain about first world problems such as buying vaporiser accessories, FFS.
I mean yes, I also want my own gear too, nice and cheap, amazing quality, no child labour...
But I start to see this baseless EU bashing time and time again as a general forum attitude and it starts to bother me.
Please let me note this has also nothing to do with actual vaporiser discussion. And may I remind us all tax evasion is a crime too? It hurts people with less resources more than rich people, which can afford private stuff. That is why yes, its mainly a moral choice for us, no big deal, but it is for some more that others, among those who do have choice.

I also do not like taxes more than anybody, but there was an advert some time ago about people asking a bill without VAT...
The response was: "of course! NO VAT, and then NO public heath care, NO public schools, NO public roads... How would you like that?"
So as much I do not like taxes, they are there for a reason in this welfare state system.

I also work in the industry, and the main issue I see, from a retailer's POV its logistics, not politics. Taxes are a small fee, comparatively. Shipping costs depend on many factors, volume, weight, distance, etc. So at the moment, for such a small market, it really isn't profitable at a small scale. This contracts the market and limits the offer.
Also ask any brand, they won't get off bed for less than 500 units, at the very least. Either that or you have to fly to the US or China and bring them back yourself! (I have seen it done btw).
But that is also a consequence of e-commerce. Not buying locally has its downsides too.

Sorry for the massive brick, pls understand had to let it out, couldn't live any longer with that inside!

 

[Hogni]

I agree with you in the most points but don't let us derail the thread, please

 

[Pyr0]

Does anyone have any suggestions for a tarriff code/commodity code/hs code and description to be used for sending a used omnivap vape to Germany please?

I'm booking it in using transglobal, but they're asking me for codes and descriptions.

[edit]
Does anyone think this might work for an omnivap and stash?
Pens & pen holders
https://www.taricsupport.com/nomenclatuur/9608910020.html

 

[Hogni]

The UK still are in the EU, so what? There is no customs, no limited imports.

 

[Pyr0]

Stupid automated booking websites
They were asking for commercial invoices and tariff codes despite there being an option for "gift".

I'm going to take it to the post office and use the Royal Mail International Track and Sign option.
Should they ask what's in there, do you think I could get away with saying it's a pen set and it's a gift for a friends birthday?

 

[blokenoname]

You a commercial trader? Invoice in there? Otherwise everything you asked is a non issue anyway. Just send by international parcel with or without tracking and no one will ask anything.