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How safe is aluminum in vapes really?

Abysmal Vapor

Supersniffer 2000 - robot fart detection device
I should have been worried about aluminum when I was a punk in HS making coke can pipes all the time. Anyone got a can? That could very well be the origins of my sieve like memory.

Too late for me to worry about aluminum in vapes, I think I passed that exit long ago I think.

:science:
Not trying to nit pick but Beans and other foods are stored in stainless cans,not in aluminum and coke is one of the most unhealty drinks on this planet, so a bit aluminum will only complement this qualities. I really hope you dont boil things in those cans though.. or torch them with 1300 Flame.I've read numerous articles about smoking from aluminum cans and most of them say it is ok ,because there no data to prove it is harmful,lol... but most them also add this :
""With any good herb, flavor is important. Smoking from foils can give your herb a harsh, metallic taste, especially if you burn the foil. The fumes may not be seriously dangerous, but smokers have reported headaches and harsher coughs from it." :tinfoil:
For sure there is something happening and Howie already said it is all about RISK tolerans I am happy that you have decided not to worry about it ,it is probably best for one's mental health..,but "having already passed that" doesnt add to facts in anyway :),in my case i find more mental comfort by avoiding this particular type metal when it is applied in high heat concepts.:peace:
 
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C No Ego

Well-Known Member
Not trying to nit pick but Beans and other foods are stored in stainless cans,not in aluminum and coke is one of the most unhealty drinks on this planet, so a bit aluminum will only complement this qualities. I really hope you dont boil things in those cans though.. or torch them with 1300 Flame.I've read numerous articles about smoking from aluminum cans and most of them say it is ok ,because there no data to prove it is harmful,lol... but most them also add this :
""With any good herb, flavor is important. Smoking from foils can give your herb a harsh, metallic taste, especially if you burn the foil. The fumes may not be seriously dangerous, but smokers have reported headaches and harsher coughs from it." :tinfoil:
For sure there is something happening and Howie already said it is all about RISK tolerans I am happy that you have decided not to worry about it ,it is probably best for one's mental health..,but "having already passed that" doesnt add to facts in anyway :),in my case i find more mental comfort by avoiding this particular type metal when it is applied in high heat concepts.:peace:

seeing the paint melt around the poked holes in the can from applying the flame of the bic lighter means its pure carcinogenic crap! I work around aluminum ladders= I use gloves... that black hand is not pleasing to see and oxidized aluminum gets on things... the guys at lunch that did not wear gloves and not wash their hands who do not have black hand anymore= where did the blackness go?= on the food and in their mouths :mental: Damn- lets talk about neuro coatings and aluminum stopping neurological signalling= the exact opposite of cannabinoids that promote neuronal messages... I guess I've worked with cave men type dudes
 

KeroZen

Chronic vapaholic
Here is what I would call the "Aluminium bible": pretty much the state of the art for Aluminium research.

HUMAN HEALTH RISK ASSESSMENT FOR ALUMINIUM, ALUMINIUM OXIDE, AND ALUMINIUM HYDROXIDE
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2782734/

From reading a few pages, the links with AD and other neuropathies have absolutely not been disproved. It's just that it's pretty hard to draw any clear conclusion, as the subject is very complex.
 

lazylathe

Almost there...
Here is what I would call the "Aluminium bible": pretty much the state of the art for Aluminium research.

HUMAN HEALTH RISK ASSESSMENT FOR ALUMINIUM, ALUMINIUM OXIDE, AND ALUMINIUM HYDROXIDE
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2782734/

From reading a few pages, the links with AD and other neuropathies have absolutely not been disproved. It's just that it's pretty hard to draw any clear conclusion, as the subject is very complex.

Most of that article is about occupational hazards from working with the material, it then moves onto products packaged in it like soft drinks and then it moves onto inhalation types.
This part interested me the most but it was also mainly occupational, pharmaceuticals that use it, food packaging etc...
Nothing about heating the material and inhaling the subsequent heated air.

My take is this:
High heat Al is used.
All units are carefully cleaned of any Al dust prior to and after assembly.
No moving parts means that there is no chance of Al dust forming that we are breathing in.

If it's good enough for Storz & Bickel heaters that have been tested, then i am okay with it.
 

KeroZen

Chronic vapaholic
Perhaps, but we also started redirecting readers here from the Boundless Tera thread when they announced initially that the bowl would be aluminium. And direct contact with acidic or basic organic matter is a different story... They coat the inside of beverage cans etc to avoid too much alu leaching to the drink or food they contain, so there's definitely something happening, oxide layer or not.

The question is also valid for the S&B concentrate pads if I'm not mistaken? Or is it some kind of capsule I don't recall?

I also don't think hot air passing by would be much of a concern. But direct contact, I don't know.
 
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Used2use

Sometimes to stupid to become a fool
Hm, there is also some % aluminium in most titanium alloy :p - Aluminium can be pure or many different alloys for various purposes with different characteristics...
S&B liquid pads are SS, the dosing caps are something like AlMgMn i would guess - pure Al wouldn't survive reshaping after stomping on one like a beer can :lol:
 

Boden

Aspie polymath
Ummmmm..... there is no Al exposed to the air path or anything else. Aluminum flash rusts with a layer of Al2O3 almost instantly after being exposed to air.

Al2O3 aka aluminum oxide is one of the hardest, thermally stable, most inert substance on earth.

Try welding Aluminum sometime. That layer can be a pain in the ass.

Now, if you clean your bowl out with sandpaper (also most likely Al2O3 grit) you might have issues.

:D

Bring it ;)

I’ve got my foil hat and everything :tinfoil:

(Disclaimer: I mostly made this post so I could use that emoji :tup:)
 

KeroZen

Chronic vapaholic
Yes, I don't think air exposure is of any real concern. That oxide layer creates indeed extremely fast, you can even see it with the naked eye when you scratch a surface.

I just have doubts when in contact with oily material. I'm cross-posting from the Tera thread:

"Aluminium cans are coated internally to protect the aluminium from oxidizing. Despite this coating, trace amounts of aluminium can be degraded into the liquid, the amount depending on factors such as storage temperature and liquid composition. Chemical compounds used in the internal coating of the can include types of epoxy resin."

(source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beverage_can#Composition)

Of course, concentrates and even less dry herbs are not like a liquid. And I'm not claiming that there is any risk, just wondering to what extent it could interact.

Anyway it's probably minimal at best, and less than the intake we get from water and food.
 

lazylathe

Almost there...
@KeroZen

One important fact you may be forgetting is that with liquids, like coke, it is a caustic liquid that is extremely aggressive to basically anything.
Place a rusted wrench in coke and it will strip the rust off easily!
Put an ounce of herb on rust and nothing happens, with or without heat the rust stays on the wrench. Lol!

Even if we do scratch the AL it seals itself immediately with an oxide layer.

The cans are oxidized already once fabricated. They are coated to protect the contents from leaching AL from the can due to the contents of the can.
 

KeroZen

Chronic vapaholic
@lazylathe: yes absolutely, we're not dealing with liquids. But what happens with reclaim and runny concentrates when they stick to the bowl for a prolonged time, coupled with frequent heat cycling? That's something I wouldn't feel confident dismissing completely, as I just don't know tbh.
 

lazylathe

Almost there...
@lazylathe: yes absolutely, we're not dealing with liquids. But what happens with reclaim and runny concentrates when they stick to the bowl for a prolonged time, coupled with frequent heat cycling? That's something I wouldn't feel confident dismissing completely, as I just don't know tbh.

Since concentrates are also not caustic and are stuck to the oxide layer, which is inert, I still think we are okay.

We would run into serious issues if our reclaim was either a very high or low PH that would eat away at the oxide layer.

One concern may be with poorly purged or cleaned concentrates, the chemicals used may attack the AL but it would be for a very short time but continual usage may affect it in some small way.
 

Boden

Aspie polymath
@lazylathe: yes absolutely, we're not dealing with liquids. But what happens with reclaim and runny concentrates when they stick to the bowl for a prolonged time, coupled with frequent heat cycling? That's something I wouldn't feel confident dismissing completely, as I just don't know tbh.
If a person is vaping something that could etch AL2O3, the trace amounts of Al they might ingest would be the least of their worries.

Having destroyed their lungs might consern them a bit more.

Since concentrates are also not caustic and are stuck to the oxide layer, which is inert, I still think we are okay.

We would run into serious issues if our reclaim was either a very high or low PH that would eat away at the oxide layer.

One concern may be with poorly purged or cleaned concentrates, the chemicals used may attack the AL but it would be for a very short time but continual usage may affect it in some small way.

Any chemical left behind would evaporate quickly in use. So inhaling the contamination would be the issue.

You know how people think sapphire aka Corundum is the best material for this silliness. It is Al2O3.

Funny how the best and worst material are exactly the same.

http://www.minerals.net/mineral/corundum.aspx
 
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invertedisdead

PHASE3
Manufacturer
You know how people think sapphire aka Corundum is the best material for this silliness. It is Al2O3.

Funny how the best and worst material are exactly the same.

Except they aren't exactly the same, they are quite different structurally, which is enough to significantly effect it's thermal properties. They only share the same chemical composition.
 
invertedisdead,

Used2use

Sometimes to stupid to become a fool
There is some research on aluminium foil/pans and grilling - results were that only marinated meat and grill cheese 'dissolved' some Al (reusable steel grill pans are better anyways). So as long as u don't marinate your bud it should be fine :lol:
And even if there would be some caustic bud that reacts in contact with Al bowls, there resulting compounds would be solid and not vapor/aerosol at those temps...
 
Used2use,
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Boden

Aspie polymath
Except they aren't exactly the same, they are quite different structurally, which is enough to significantly effect it's thermal properties. They only share the same chemical composition.
That’s true. One is thin the other is thick.
 
Boden,

invertedisdead

PHASE3
Manufacturer
That’s true. One is thin the other is thick.

The specific composition of the crystalline structure effects the thermal and physical properties. Sapphire is a more pure form of Al203 than aluminum oxide and is more chemically inert and thermally conductive.
 
invertedisdead,
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Boden

Aspie polymath
The specific composition of the crystalline structure effects the thermal and physical properties. Sapphire is a more pure form of Al203 than aluminum oxide and is more chemically inert and thermally conductive.
Got that a bit backwards, might want to look that up.
 
Boden,
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Boden

Aspie polymath
Synthetic Sapphire is a single crystal form of corundum, Al2O3, also known as alpha-alumina, alumina, and single crystal Al2O3. Sapphire is aluminium oxide in the purest form with no porosity or grain boundaries, making it theoretically dense. The combination of favourable chemical, electrical, mechanical, optical, surface, thermal, and durability properties make sapphire a preferred material for high performance system and component designs. For various semiconductor applications, sapphire is the best choice in comparison with other synthetic single-crystals.

http://www.mt-berlin.com/frames_cryst/descriptions/sapphire.htm

That’s true the metal impurities in sapphire make it a semiconductor. Pure Amorphous Al2O3 is an insulator.

On the topic of stability
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jp405820g#/doi/full/10.1021/jp405820g
 

asdf420

Well-Known Member
why not an aluminum vapcap tip? It may not induction heat as much, so more convection?
 
asdf420,

Boden

Aspie polymath
why not an aluminum vapcap tip? It may not induction heat as much, so more convection?
I made one.

It heats up and cools down too quickly.

ewOMzl6.jpg
 

invertedisdead

PHASE3
Manufacturer
You know how people think sapphire aka Corundum is the best material for this silliness. It is Al2O3.

Funny how the best and worst material are exactly the same.

http://www.minerals.net/mineral/corundum.aspx


"Back in high school we learnt that aluminium was a useful material partly because it is protected by a tenacious oxide layer. Iron, in contrast, suffers from the fact that it forms a flaky, rust layer when exposed to the atmosphere. Of course, like many truths taught at school, the aluminium oxide story only bears so much scrutiny.

Alpha alumina (corundum)
Figure 1: Corundum is just below diamond on the Moh scale (http://geology.com/minerals/mohs-hardness-scale.shtml)
Our GCSE level explanation starts to come unstuck when we realise that the term “aluminium oxide” is loose.

Purely in terms of stability, we would love to have alpha alumina on our aluminium surface. Alpha alumina occurs in nature as corundum. With a few impurities thrown in we get gemstones like amethyst, sapphire, topaz and ruby.

We find corundum just below diamond on the Moh scale. This is a qualitative description of the scratch resistance of minerals. Unfortunately like diamond, the conditions we need to form corundum (> 1200°C) are a long way from those we find in aluminium plants.

The real aluminium oxide surface
The normal state of affairs, when we roll or extrude aluminium, is a lower temperature and uncontrolled atmosphere. In the real world our aluminium surface is a consequence of those conditions. It is a mixture of aluminium oxide and hydroxide.

Although surface engineers like the stability of the oxide, the hydroxide part is also useful. Much of the aluminium in use today is coated or bonded. Adhesive, paint and lacquer producers find hydroxide groups on the aluminium surface useful for forming bonds with their products.

These bonds give the levels of stability necessary for ensuring durability and product lifetimes measured in years. However, experience tells us too many hydroxide groups give a surface layer that is relatively weak and somewhat hygroscopic. Aluminium oxyhydroxide minerals, for example, have Moh hardnesses of between 2.5 and 7 compared to 9 for corundum.

FTIR to examine aluminium surfaces
At Innoval we routinely use infrared spectroscopy (FTIR) to assess aluminium surfaces. It doesn’t have the highest resolution compared to some high vacuum techniques. However, it does allow a much faster throughput of samples. It gives us the ability to determine the chemical bonds on aluminium surfaces both qualitatively and, with calibration, quantitatively.

Figure 2: FTIR allows us to see the chemical bonds on an aluminium oxide surface
In reality, the native oxide is not a simple crystalline mineral. In fact if you grow an oxide on aluminium in a dry atmosphere at room temperature you will find it is a mixture of Al2O3, pseudo-boehmite and bayerite.

Producers of technically demanding surfaces e.g. for automotive sheet, rely on cleaning and pretreatment processes to remove this largely uncontrolled oxide layer. They will then replace it with a more standardised surface often featuring stabilising elements such as titanium or zirconium. Only then can they be sure their products can meet the requirements of ever demanding end users.

Understanding your surface
Helping our customers understand their aluminium surfaces is a major part of our business. Our customers, as aluminium producers and end users, face complications because the metals they use are alloys.

Figure 3: IR sprectra showing magnesium oxide’s tendency to hydrate compared with aluminium oxide
If you add a few percent of another metal into bulk aluminium you can be sure some of that is going to end up on your surface. For example, with 5000 series alloys during normal processing, magnesium’s higher diffusivity means there is a concentrating effect at the surface. This is an issue in products needing good long term adhesion. Magnesium oxide has a strong tendency to hydrate forming a weak hydroxide that can lead to premature adhesion failure, as you can see in the IR spectra in Figure 3.

In another area, Innoval’s heat exchanger group works with customers who know the problems with brazing that occur due to magnesium concentration at the surface. We have a unique ability with our infrared kit to monitor surfaces in situ as they are heated in various atmospheres. The figures in Figure 4 show two examples of this; the growth of aluminium oxide on super purity aluminium and on 5182 at 595°C.

Figure 4: Growth of aluminium oxide on super purity aluminium and on 5182 at 595 deg C
Getting the surface right is often a critical factor in achieving world class products. FTIR is one of the key techniques we use to show customers the features of their surfaces that affect performance. You can read more about our analytical capabilities here."

 
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