Discontinued Zion vaporizer

[little maggie]

I hope you didn't read my comment as a "hate" message. I am behind you all the way Ryan. At some point you talked about completing the zions a few at time and sending them out. Are you now planning on completing them all in one run? I understand that the milaana's are a priority. But why only 200 zions? All of those who have received them have said they like them even more than the milaana.

 

[upriver]

I'm far from a "hater", and am an early pre-orderer still patiently awaiting a Zion (18+ months now).

That said, some of the above criticisms of the PR and Customer Service tone are, I believe, meant in the spirit of assisting your efforts, not hating. I do have a bias to admit - I'm a customer experience manager for a very successful software company founded on a reputation of above-average support. I'd be happy to give you some pointers "for free" just as you are asking others to do PR "for free".

I'd love to help spread the word for you, but can't do so until I actually have a device to inspect. I still consider it "vaporware" (ahem), but am very optimistic that you'll make good, eventually.

The one piece of unsolicited advice I would toss out there - err on the side of assuming some of the words from "haters" are in fact bits of Tough Love. Yeah there are some jackasses hastily and emotionally posting on the internet, but a lot of the hate here is in fact crudely packaged sound advice. Giving people, even/especially meanspirited hateful people, the benefit of the doubt and deciding to parse their criticism as helpful has very few downsides and could in fact become a core value of your brand. As the Tao itself is made of light and dark, perhaps you could focus on seeing the flipside of the hate you perceive.

Best wishes and happy new year,

 

[HD Springer]

@upriver when you put it that way how can a person be anything but enlightened in one way or another. I know I sure as hell am. Peace.

 

[cybrguy]

The truth is no matter the politics or the delays, the ZION is a SERIOUSLY kick ass vape. The one I have that is still behind the current technology is far and away the best vape I have. It is among the easiest to use and the most flexible in pumping out what I want at any given time. To me, in terms of how it produces and other than the Milaana, it is closest to my Lotus, without a torch. HUGE hits, or small as I need. With or without glass. Low or high temp. Big loads or small. There is nothing I haven't been able to do with my Zion oither than put it in my pocket.

My HOPE is that once production begins and people start getting them the clamor for more will be deafening, and the Zion will become a huge project. But that can't happen till it gets out there again. I'm really hopeful that can happen soon.

A big part of its success MUST be getting it out past FC. As wonderful a community as this is, it is just not big enough to support a vape on its own. It will need to be reviewed and get out on the street. The sooner the better...

 

[tblast]

I'm sorry to have brought on all this controversy. I'm far from a "hater," I'm a VERY happy Milaana owner and a Zion preorder. I really have no problem waiting, either. I didn't like the tone or content of that one post, and probably should have just ignored it. Keep doing you, RBT.

 

[muunch]

Don't feel bad for speaking up.

 

[Cl4ud3]

It will need to be reviewed and get out on the street. The sooner the better...

Same for the Milaana, it needs to be in the hands of more reviewers. I've commented on them in the VapeCritic forum but he's never used one, some of the reviews I have seen were from stores who don't even have the unit for sale It does need to be out there for people to make a buzz.

Edit:- Maybe there should be a unit for reviewers to test that can pass between them

 

[Fat Freddy]

 

[grokit]

I really like my milaana. But I would be lying if I said I wasn't looking for the additional predictability, power, and longevity of a zion. If the unit I paid in good faith for so very long ago ever gets made, I'm sure that I will be thrilled with it. But I also hope that if ryan decides not to fullfill my order, that he would at that point proactively refund my money. It's not right to put the onus on me to request a refund or basically sod off. I wouldn't mind helping, if I had any influence on social media at all, but I rarely participate in anything online beyond this forum. So while I agree that it's not a fair burden, it is an excellent way to offer 'incentive'.

 

[little maggie]

I am also a bit concerned because the mistvape will be coming out soon and it is mainly a cheaper version of the milaana. Depending on how they market it, the milaana may have quite a bit of competition. Do those of you involved with it think that it will impact milaana sales?
Whereas the Zion seems to be a very unique and special vape that the few users love. RBT is a great designer.
I confess that I wish if someone was going to copy one of RBT's designs they had tried the Zion.
I also want to say that I appreciate RBT's persistence with these products. Although it's finally been cloned the last time someone developed some beautiful wood creative vape (daisy/lily) they shut down the business. (and why does the brick seem to be selling better than the daisy did?)

 

[KeroZen]

Hard to say, the MistVape is currently at an introductory price and Dave expects to be able to charge more for it in the future, as it's currently not very profitable.

 

[momofthegoons]

So, the more all of the Zion supporters are vocal against the haters the faster Zion will be completed. It's unfortunate that the trivial few worked so hard to spread hate for RBT brand rather than getting a refund if they where so impatient and angered?

Not on this forum. We are not going to be 'vocal against the haters.' And inviting the disgruntled back to revisit their grievances is not productive. If you choose to address those past problems feel free. But to call those members the 'trivial few' and 'haters' discredits them as unhappy customers.

What you and your happy customers can continue to do is promote the product.

I want NO more talk about 'haters' on this thread...from anyone. It only promotes argument when name calling is used.

 

[little maggie]

I'm far from a "hater", and am an early pre-orderer still patiently awaiting a Zion (18+ months now).

That said, some of the above criticisms of the PR and Customer Service tone are, I believe, meant in the spirit of assisting your efforts, not hating. I do have a bias to admit - I'm a customer experience manager for a very successful software company founded on a reputation of above-average support. I'd be happy to give you some pointers "for free" just as you are asking others to do PR "for free".

I'd love to help spread the word for you, but can't do so until I actually have a device to inspect. I still consider it "vaporware" (ahem), but am very optimistic that you'll make good, eventually.

The one piece of unsolicited advice I would toss out there - err on the side of assuming some of the words from "haters" are in fact bits of Tough Love. Yeah there are some jackasses hastily and emotionally posting on the internet, but a lot of the hate here is in fact crudely packaged sound advice. Giving people, even/especially meanspirited hateful people, the benefit of the doubt and deciding to parse their criticism as helpful has very few downsides and could in fact become a core value of your brand. As the Tao itself is made of light and dark, perhaps you could focus on seeing the flipside of the hate you perceive.

Best wishes and happy new year,

I do think that's why RBT needs help. His area of expertise is not customer service but is product development. We all have different strengths. I have enough problems using some of the vapes never mind developing them but I could probably do customer service. He has developed some great products and is apparently working with a management advisor but customer service is still a skill in progress.

 

[RastaBuddhaTao]

Hey folks. Here is the 2017 plan in draft spelling errors and all. I want to be as transparent as possible so I wanted to get it out to folks ASAP. It will be reviewed and refined and a series of monthly action list will be developed. RBT will be using the SPRINT method of program management in which a plan is built at the start of each month based on the high level plan to define the SPRINT (Action list for the month). Then, at the end of each month, the plan accomplishments are measured and reviewed against the sprint goals at the end of each month. Lessons learned are then baked into the definition of the next sprint. In this way you can plan manageable blocks of work ensuring progress and enabling agility.

If you have followed this thread you know that my transparent nature is in part to solicit feedback from professional, knowledgeable, supportive people here on FC so please email me with things you believe will be helpful in executing the plan.

Keep positive FC and I will keep kicking ass and we will get to the other side one SPRINT at a time

Peace and Harmony,
RBT

http://www.rastabuddhatao.net/2017-plan

 

[grokit]

http://www.rastabuddhatao.net/2017-plan

So the zion will be "retired" in the third quarter of next year?

That's right after shipping the pre-orders in the second quarter, and it won't even get to compete for a whole year in the open market. Everybody says it's your best vaporizer design, why not give it a real chance?

 

[little maggie]

So the zion will be "retired" in the third quarter of next year?

That's right after shipping the pre-orders in the second quarter, and it won't even get to compete for a whole year in the open market. Everybody says it's your best vaporizer design, why not give it a real chance?

Agree- especially now that there is competition and none on the Zion. It makes no sense to put everything into manufacturing the Milaana when people who have both prefer the Zion.

 

[AJS]

Agree- especially now that there is competition and none on the Zion. It makes no sense to put everything into manufacturing the Milaana when people who have both prefer the Zion.

Guessing labor cost and too long to produce due to mass production difficulties. Who knows.

 

[Cl4ud3]

Well it makes the Zion extra special for those who will have one

 

[GetLeft]

@RastaBuddhaTao, use the power of the triangle. Triangulation. If you want to look at things objectively at the end of each month, you want three sets of eyes (at least) from different perspectives. In your case I'm thinking maybe management, manufacturer, sales. Oh and a consumer might be a good idea to have on board too. But you have FC so that's kind of automatic.

Fwiw, as a consumer I never wanted the Zion. Until I got the Milaana. Now I want another Milaana because in the back of my mind I fear one is not enough. And then a Zion. Because if the Milaana is so damn nice how could the Zion not be? Hope I can save enough $ before those Zion's phase out

Appreciate the winner prize

 

[HellsWindStaff]

RBT's post did remind me of @HellsWindStaff though, who was spewing venom earlier in the thread towards RBT, and now has picked up a Milaana. I would think his opinion would be valuable to the mass of people who love to shit on RBT

I appreciate the kind words regarding the value of my opinion and it's funny you mentioned that, as my interest was piqued more when I saw people with good opinions who spoke highly of the vape, but were critical of the development/company.

"Spewing venom" makes it sound so dirty but the critiques from the "haters" has always been more more from an attitude & business standpoint. I still disagree with a lot of that, and feel a lot of the wounds are self inflicted, but this has been repeated ad naseum by myself and others in this thread.

I agree about everything regarding the namecalling and marginalization of opinion, but that too was discussed ad naseum earlier/throughout thread. Take a lesson from Hillary but I also feel that mindset is not as prevalent as it was and things on an upswing! I took no offense to when RBT said silence the haters in his previous post a page back and I figured he meant let them see how the tech is.

The model of "sell Milaana to fund Zion" is perfectly justified and while I feel for those that pre0rdered, don't blame RBT for not having infinite money...

It's a business model and regardless of my opinion on it's justifiability (selling one vape to gain funds to produce the next makes 100% sense), my critique has always been in the line of, that's not what they signed up for. Again ad naseum and talking how business is ran has been discussed already.

I'm writing this, while using my Milaana and I will be sure to tout the things I like about it to people looking for something like it. I just ripped some huge clouds, again! My goal when someone asks for opinion on a vape is to get them something that will work good for them and I've no stock in the success or failures of any company. I don't view any vape as the "best" and believe that one size does not fit all, but if it seems like the Milaana is their size I will certainly recommend it.

I am also a bit concerned because the mistvape will be coming out soon and it is mainly a cheaper version of the milaana. Depending on how they market it, the milaana may have quite a bit of competition. Do those of you involved with it think that it will impact milaana sales?
Whereas the Zion seems to be a very unique and special vape that the few users love. RBT is a great designer.
I confess that I wish if someone was going to copy one of RBT's designs they had tried the Zion.
I also want to say that I appreciate RBT's persistence with these products. Although it's finally been cloned the last time someone developed some beautiful wood creative vape (daisy/lily) they shut down the business. (and why does the brick seem to be selling better than the daisy did?)

I would say yes it probably would impact Milaana sales since it is a similar product (though IMO they compliment each other quite well) and half the cost. Before anyone tries to say it's not half the cost, it is lol http://www.rastabuddhatao.net/apps/webstore/ $240/2 = $120 + shipping. The MistVape Touches are going now for $98 plus $10-15 shipping. You get some other stuff in the Mi package, but this is pretty black and white I, can buy two MVT kits and have them shipped separately for $226 or I can buy one Mi kit for $240 plus shipping.

I think to say it is a clone is a bit unfairly dismissive imo but just my .02. Vapes are a relatively narrow industry regarding innovation as is, and you can say the Mi has a strong case for just being a clone of a Firewood with simply a stem instead of a capsule. The concept of whats happening in the devices is basically identical, you have a cold device that takes an 18650, you trigger a heater underneath your botanical and pull air past the heater and than that hot air vaporizes your bud. I've even seen people use Hammer stems, and in that case it is even more like these 2.

Just my perspective on the idea of clones; I don't view any vape as a clone really other than literal Wulf/Weeke/etc type of rebrands.

Sticky Brick started once Triihouse already imploded, not sure if that's what you mean or not but it's not like SB ran the Triihouse products out of town. Triihouse had it's own beevy of problems regarding contact,stock, etc. This also addresses why the SB seems to sell better (I feel this way too), because SB does not have those problems and people don't like investing into a company where it may become a hassle down the line.

Cheers, back to TOUCH Mi Self

 

[muunch]

I think to say it is a clone is a bit unfairly dismissive imo but just my .02.

I agree with this.

And I thank you for writing that up, I didn't mean to paint your intentions in a negative light but you did not seem happy with things. I could have picked better words for my post but meh.

I'm glad you came around and are enjoying it.

 

[little maggie]

This business is beyond my understanding. The mistic touch wouldn't exist if the developer had not seen the milaana and is cheaper because it's new. Was the Milaana based on the firewood the same way? Milaana was cheaper when it first came out. Quite a few here are testing it to help with development. I guess to me that's similar to if the brick was developed while the Triihouse ones were being marketed.
Having said that, FC is a community and a lot here are involved with testing different vapes. Now I'm going to shut up. If I wasn't on such a tight budget now I might buy a mistic vape or another milaana out of some lovely wood.

 

[KeroZen]

If I recall correctly the Milaana was released before the FW4. At that time the FW3 was not using 18650 Li-Ion cells, it was still those weak Ni-MH.

The Milaana was not the first vape to use a single 18650 but it was the first* to employ the new breed of high discharge IMR/INR chemistries with a novel heater using considerable power. Somehow it paved the way by proving it was more than adequate for true convection vaporization. (*: there were already documented uses in the BULLI thread with e-cig mods, and I don't remember but maybe some of the Thermovape products before that? And of course the Zion came even before but it has two cells)

Marc @ Firewood and Dave @ MistVapes just made their respective products evolve to embrace these new cells too, just because it was the right thing to do. The MV-Touch and the FW4 are less powerful than the Milaana but have longer battery life as a trade-off. They also have narrower vapor-paths. The FW4 is the most refined and featured, with extra settings and trigger-less operation, and it is partly regulated where the two others are completely manual... so quite a different product in fact.

The price of the MVT is likely to rise, Dave said it himself that's not a secret. It should be less distorted afterwards and I see it as a healthy competition. I'd like to test the MVT at some point but I'm waiting until it gets more polished.

 

[VegNVape]

My darlings!

How could I not snap a souvenir pic for the thread?! . . . .

As it turns out, the road to Zion is actually only a short walk up a gentle incline

And a rocky randomer appropriately shot in the mist. Although tbh, the Zion is more at home in a dense fog . . .

Zion the Tank Engine.

OneLove.

 

[pakalolo]

I am also a bit concerned because the mistvape will be coming out soon and it is mainly a cheaper version of the milaana. Depending on how they market it, the milaana may have quite a bit of competition. Do those of you involved with it think that it will impact milaana sales?
Whereas the Zion seems to be a very unique and special vape that the few users love. RBT is a great designer.
I confess that I wish if someone was going to copy one of RBT's designs they had tried the Zion.
I also want to say that I appreciate RBT's persistence with these products. Although it's finally been cloned the last time someone developed some beautiful wood creative vape (daisy/lily) they shut down the business. (and why does the brick seem to be selling better than the daisy did?)

Since a clone is a duplicate of a design, the MistVape is not a clone of anything. @mistvaporizer was developing it for quite a while before the Zion or Milaana, and in November 2014 he asked me to evaluate his earliest models (which were significantly different from the latest design). It's possible that the RBT designs influenced some of Dave's decisions, but I wouldn't know since I dropped out before the 18650 battery was adopted.

I think to say it is a clone is a bit unfairly dismissive imo but just my .02. Vapes are a relatively narrow industry regarding innovation as is, and you can say the Mi has a strong case for just being a clone of a Firewood with simply a stem instead of a capsule. The concept of whats happening in the devices is basically identical, you have a cold device that takes an 18650, you trigger a heater underneath your botanical and pull air past the heater and than that hot air vaporizes your bud. I've even seen people use Hammer stems, and in that case it is even more like these 2.

Again, the Milaana is not a clone either. The reason I dropped out of helping with the MistVape was that @RastaBuddhaTao persuaded me to help with the Zion design. The Milaana arose naturally out of that project.

The Milaana was not the first vape to use a single 18650 but it was the first* to employ the new breed of high discharge IMR/INR chemistries with a novel heater using considerable power.

The Milaana was not the first. The FlashVAPE was using those batteries well before RBT began his projects.